Engine Service

[kpnut]

58 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

On the rivers I do occasional checks when the floor boards are up, how often do you check the oil level on your car before doing a 5 mile trip?

 

That’s a completely valid point Smoggy. Habit I suppose as regards a ‘workhorse’ even if it’s not really working.
 My car also doesn’t have a habit of showing full oil for weeks on end then one day dropping below the minimum for no apparent reason. 

[MauriceMynah]

I ask a friend of mine if he can remember when my engine was last serviced.  If he can, no problem. If he can't,  then it's time he did it again.

[dom]

2 hours ago, Smoggy said:

On the rivers I do occasional checks when the floor boards are up, how often do you check the oil level on your car before doing a 5 mile trip?

If you're comparing a new car with a new boat, that's sound logic. With boats though, and especially older ones, the level of fault detection and warning is generally much lower. A substantial percentage of private boats are 20+ years old and instruments can be pretty rudimentary.

With a private vessel, where you're going to be looking at a bill probably in the order of £10k or so to replace a single diesel engine, I think it makes sense to at least check oil fairly regularly. Checking water is coming from the exhaust ought to be a routine check as you untie.

[MauriceMynah]

You've highlighted an interesting point there Dom. Water from the exhaust.  I remember a post from Griff (BA) saying that the best place for the exhaust outlet was at the stern. Actually he said "proper place". On Nyx, the exhaust outlet is  next to the helm seat.

My contention is that this is the best place as it means I can hear the cooling water spurting out and therefore can monitor the water filter constantly. Important for a solo helm.

[Bikertov]

4 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

You've highlighted an interesting point there Dom. Water from the exhaust.  I remember a post from Griff (BA) saying that the best place for the exhaust outlet was at the stern. Actually he said "proper place". On Nyx, the exhaust outlet is  next to the helm seat.

My contention is that this is the best place as it means I can hear the cooling water spurting out and therefore can monitor the water filter constantly. Important for a solo helm.

My exhaust outlet is at the rear.

But then I have a sedan style boat, with rear access into the cockpit area from a transom door and bathing platform, so it is easy to hear and then just step to the back to have a look out too including when underway.

[Norfolkangler]

20 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I do not appreciate your ridicule.

A hire boat on a turn-round day will will have a series of routine checks by a mechanic :

Levels of engine oil, cooling water, gearbox oil,  belt tension, belt condition, flow of water through water pump, cleaning of raw water filters, visual inspection of stern gland, bilge pump, battery levels, and many other routines. Running up engine and actually driving the boat to the diesel quay for topping up with diesel, water and toilet pumpout. During this, he will immediately notice if there is anything strange about the handling : something round the propeller, lack of oil in the steering. While doing this he will be noticing if the water pump is running frequently, which indicates a possible water leak (which will also drain the batteries). 

Full inspection of all equipment in the boat : TV, lighting, inverter, toilets (especially electric ones), Gas cooker, fridge, deck gear including lifebuoys ; function of sliding canopy.

All this will take an experienced boatyard mechanic about an hour, if nothing is found wrong. 

Fuel filters are changed in winter and once every season. Oil is changed according to engine hours  and filters are changed every second oil change. These changes will be noted on the paperwork for the boat, so that the mechanic knows when it  is time for the change.

What better "service" do you want than that??

 

If you think of the above as a service on your car, when you look at the schedule  you would imagine it takes a fair while, but as Vaughn says, to an experienced mechanic, these things are being looked at whilst completing other tasks. Most are visual and if OK a tick in the box. If not OK then they will be worked on which will obviously take up extra time.

[Smoggy]

I currently have thermocouples on my raw water pumps with a display at the helm, if no water pumping they get hot pretty quick and the display text turns from green to red, plan to move them to exhaust elbows at some point and reprogram the display accordingly.

If they stay around the same temp as stern glands and rise a little bit as the engines warm up all is good.

On my last boat I fitted flow switches into the plumbing after the pump with red/green leds at the helm, switches operated the wrong way round so I had to use relays to invert the signal and switch the led colour over.

[dom]

2 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

You've highlighted an interesting point there Dom. Water from the exhaust.  I remember a post from Griff (BA) saying that the best place for the exhaust outlet was at the stern. Actually he said "proper place". On Nyx, the exhaust outlet is  next to the helm seat.

My contention is that this is the best place as it means I can hear the cooling water spurting out and therefore can monitor the water filter constantly. Important for a solo helm.

Transom mounting the outlet generally means a longer exhaust run, which tends to dampen high frequency noise, giving a deeper overall exhaust note. For a private boat, I'd always go down that route, as it sounds nicer. The opposite applied with some of the Connoisseur fleet in particular, where they had v.short exhausts and a fairly harsh exhaust note, which always sounded like it was being thrashed, even under relatively low load (further exacerbated by hydraulic drive).

For a hire boat, if you're single crewing a lot, or if you're running a larger engine under light load, I could see the merit of doing as you say and mounting the outlet close to the helm, so you can always hear the water. I've always had slight reservations about flow sensors as, to my mind, they're going to be working in harsh conditions, so probably more hassle than they're worth. I have also heard it said that they tend not to be great at detecting reduced flow soon enough.

[Vaughan]

Well, that's got us all talking on a Monday morning, hasn't it?   

I admit I made my anti-hire boat comment when a bit grumpy but I don't retract it at all.  Over the years I have suggested to my friends in the business - both past and present - that they might enjoy contributing to this forum.  The reaction has always been the same, as the comment they see about hire boats here, is often ill-informed and sensational.  I sometimes felt they were surprised at me, for even suggesting it!

Look at yourselves, and think about some of the things you so easily say :

"If I had seen that happening, I would have rung the boatyard immediately" . 

"Why didn't they fit new batteries before the boat went out?"

"If they weren't so focussed on making money, they should have spent more on maintenance."

"Why weren't they told about this, on the trial run?"

And the list goes on . . . .

If we are just going to see hire boats as a "blot on the landscape" then we are forgetting that what we now know as the Broads navigation (what is left of it) is owed entirely to the success of boating holidays and local tourism over more than 100 years.  Blakes agency was founded in 1908.

As for servicing, consider this :

I once recommended to the board of Crown Blue Line that we should change our Nanni engines every 9000 hours, to maintain our standard of reliability.  The average saloon car (private or company) according to its own on-board computer, is driven at an average of around 35 miles per hour.  So 9000 hours in a moving boat is equivalent to 315,000 miles in a car.  When you then consider that a hire boat is being driven for several hours at a constant speed under medium load, that average is more like 50MPH, which brings it to 450,000 miles in a car.  As it is, the new owners of CBL rejected my suggestion and the engines went on until they broke down - on the hirers!  Some have lasted until 16,000 hours or more - which would be 800,000 miles!

How do you suppose we achieve figures like that, without regular and thorough servicing?

Tourism on the Broads is extremely fragile and this year is just as "dodgy" as any other.  If you want to continue to enjoy cruising the Broads as we know them and if you want the BA to have enough funds to maintain them in any way "navigable",  then knocking the hire boat business without knowledge or justification is just biting the hand that feeds you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vaughan]

23 hours ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Vaughan, Andrew was talking about an engine service not a series of routine checks by a mechanic.

So what do you call a service?

[MargeandParge]

My comment wasn't made in any way to knock the hire boat industry as Ole Marge and myself have just enjoyed a hire boat on another water way and very good it was too

I made my comment after wittering on to an engineer and a fleet owner about our oil change and their reply was stop worrying only once a year for hire boats. Many hire yards have the capacity to turn boats around without moving them by the time people have vacated and the cleaners have done their finest work the boat has been pumped out , refuelled , the engineers have fixed any reported problems and checked the very basics. It's normally time for trial runs with new occupants on which we and lots of others have been .

An amazing service that should be admired. Everyone that works in a successful boat hire yard has to be very flexible and adaptable to the most urgent task presenting itself when they are busy.

I was told that when the season finished they serviced as it was what it was and probably is what it is.

Please nobody take any offence at my remarks as they are just whats happened to us.

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

 

[ExSurveyor]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

"If they weren't so focussed on making money, they should have spent more on maintenance."

 

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

As it is, the new owners of CBL rejected my suggestion and the engines went on until they broke down - on the hirers!

 

On that basis, some criticism of the hire industry in general is not entirely unfounded.

I can understand the rationale to push the expected life of engines for a large fleet, the savings must be huge.

Generally the complaints about hire boats that I see, mainly on Facebook, are minor items that are easy to rectify but not always visible.

 

[dom]

1 hour ago, MargeandParge said:

I made my comment after wittering on to an engineer and a fleet owner about our oil change and their reply was stop worrying only once a year for hire boats.

Oil quality has improved since my days, and boats tend to be less solidly booked out from what I've seen - but, historically, one change a year was generally too little. We also had predominantly BMC 1.5s, which can suffer crank failures, so need regular changes. Modern Nannis are probably more robust in general.

During turnaround, we'd shift one boat at a time to a dedicated quay heading where we'd wash down the entire exterior, pump out, top up diesel and water, etc. Quite often, the boat would get an oil change mid-season and it would get done in the same time it took to do the other tasks. The interval was based on engine hours, so largely dictated by how far hirers went. The cost of a change was pretty inconsequential compared to the losses you'd suffer if you had a major breakdown.

Personally, I'd change twice a year. Once at the start of the season, so you have fresh oil for the majority of your running - and again at the end, so you're not leaving contaminants in the oil over winter (particularly sulphur, which can combine with water to make sulphuric acid). If the cost is an issue, only change the filter at the end of season and use a cheaper oil over winter, as you'll probably do very little running on it. That may be overkill, but I tend to look after my possessions and get longer than average service out of them.

 

[Bikertov]

Following on from this topic, does anyone have a recommendation for a top-up oil to get - brand, type etc - for my Nanni 4.220HE ?

[BrundallNavy]

I use this in my Nanni. 

[Norfolkangler]

27 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

Following on from this topic, does anyone have a recommendation for a top-up oil to get - brand, type etc - for my Nanni 4.220HE ?

Can you find out what was used at the last oil change. If it were me I would only top up with the same oil as is in there at the moment, unless it is an emergency.

I know some people will say that it will be OK to use another brand as long as the viscosity is the same but I would be more comfortable using the same as is in there. Nowadays oil is a nightmare for cars. Various brands with the same viscosity but manufacturers only recommend certain brands and not all of them.  

Agreed a Nanni is an old school diesel, but looked after it will last years.

[dom]

40 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

Following on from this topic, does anyone have a recommendation for a top-up oil to get - brand, type etc - for my Nanni 4.220HE ?

When I used to work for a company in the motor trade, I did the odd bit of training with both Comma and Miller Oils. I also saw the processes they go through to prove that their product wasn't responsible when a customer claims that "I did an oil change with your oil and it wrecked my engine" - which can get to be a very interesting situation!

Based on that experience, I wouldn't get hugely hung up on branding, would use any brand you recognise, but would always change at 80-90% of the recommended interval, at most. Contaminants and wear elements in the oil are far more likely to do harm than running on a cheaper, no-name brand - and especially sulphur with diesel fuels.

I'd be more concerned with ensuring you're using the right grade. It looks like Nanni recommend API CD SAE 15W40 and changes at 200 hours or annually. API CD is effectively obsolete. Personally, I'd ask a good oil supplier for advise on the best replacement - as it's a high sulphur protective oil grade and I'm not sure what the best equivalent is now (probably CF-4 or CI-4).

Gearbox oil needs changing at the same interval. ATF-A for a Hurth gearbox, or the same grade as the engine if it's Technodrive.

Did you have an oil analysis done during a survey? If not, it's worth considering, as it can give a better picture of the condition of the engine and whether, for example, it's worth changing oil grades to compensate for wear.

[dom]

31 minutes ago, Norfolkangler said:

Nowadays oil is a nightmare for cars. Various brands with the same viscosity but manufacturers only recommend certain brands and not all of them. 

Oil is ultra-critical with modern car engines because they're pushing the limits of engineering to such extremes. 1 litre or 3 cylinder engines producing enough power for a mid sized vehicle is insane and components have to be engineered to amazing tolerances. Fuel economy even has a bearing on things. The engine in my Honda required that they develop a new oil grade, solely to achieve a few extra MPG. It's a 0w20 grade and like water. A while back, I changed to a slighty less expensive Castrol Edge fully synthetic 0w30, which Honda say is acceptable - but fuel mileage went down quite noticeably.

With an older marine engine, which has significant hours running, I wouldn't keep using the same oil by default, unless you know why the last owner chose it. It may be fine in the short run, but important things like corrosion or contaminant protection can be wrong - by the time it becomes apparent, it may be too late.

[Bikertov]

All interesting points above.

As I had the engine serviced over winter, complete with oil change, what I will do in the first instance is ask Jones what oil they put in, and take it from there. 

I will certainly ensure it is changed every year regardless. I doubt I will be doing more than a few 100 hours a year right now - especially with the river shut so much !

[Norfolkangler]

13 hours ago, Norfolkangler said:

 

Agreed a Nanni is an old school diesel, but looked after it will last years.

I did mention it being old school and not ultra modern CRD. I was more trying to stress the point that for a "Top up" it would be better to use the same as is in there. If you are going to change it later use what you like as long as it meet the spec from Nanni then just stick with that.

Agreed oil has marched on with modern IC engines pushing the limits. My D5 engined Volvo is 0/30W which for an old git like me being brought up on diesel engines seems insane along with 18000 mile service intervals between changes. (I still change it yearly at around 12000 miles)

[annv]

Hi DO NOT use modern spec oils in a boat engine, a boat engine is not the same as a modern car engine.Use the grade( API) no as the engine manufacturer recommends. The difference between cheap oils and dearier oils is the additives that are added to prevent corrosion internally. I use Castrol Inboard as this has additives to coat the internal surfaces to prevent corrosion while moored for long periods in the harsh conditions that boat engines have to contend with, unlike cars that are parked in a dry garage and used daily. John

[Norfolkangler]

Nobody has mentioned USING modern spec oils yet. Just the differences between old and new spec oils

[Karizma]

I have a Nanni (4.190HE) and use Morris Marine 10w-40 Classic Marine oil, which is multigrade mineral oil (rather than synthetic), which the manual specifies.

What do members think about the value of doing an engine flush prior to changing the oil? and if yes, which ones are considered the best? I've personally only done it twice in the last 3 years of owning our boat, using Morris Golden Film Flushing Oil.

[dom]

10 minutes ago, Karizma said:

What do members think about the value of doing an engine flush prior to changing the oil? and if yes, which ones are considered the best? I've personally only done it twice in the last 3 years of owning our boat, using Morris Golden Film Flushing Oil.

For me, the deciding factor whether to flush would be the mechanism by which you're removing the oil and previous maintenance.

Flushing oils and engine flushes contain very strong detergents or solvents (which can actually start to cause issues with gaskets or seals). If any flush gets left behind, it's going to start breaking down the new oil prematurely. For that reason, if you're emptying the sump using a pump, I wouldn't use a flush, as they tend to leave a bit behind. If you're removing a sump, or can access a sump plug and leave it out for an extended period, I'd possibly consider it.

All that said, unless you know the engine contains oil which has been left in far too long, I wouldn't bother with the flush and would do what I mentioned previously. Do a change in the autumn and use a cheap supermarket oil or similar of the correct grade. After running over winter, or after a few hours running in the spring, dump it out and replace with a higher quality branded oil. The change in autumn gets rid of residual sulphur in the sump, which would otherwise combine with moisture over winter to make damaging sulphuric acid. The change in spring then gets rid of any residual contaminants or oxides before the season's use.

The one time I definitely would use a flush is if you've bought a boat which is obviously neglected, as there's probably a strong chance the oil has been in the sump for multiple seasons. You do need to be prepared for it to start leaking everywhere in that case though - especially on things like old BMCs where the gunge is probably all that's holding cork gaskets together.

 

[Smoggy]

The one time I gave my engines a flush is when they out to change the fuel tanks, sump plugs removed and an old water pump running wash tank fluid into the sump drain tube and back out into a bowl under the drain plug, an hour each engine just to clear any sludge from the sump but not through the oil system.