Blakes branding

[Broads01]

This year once again Hoseasons have chosen to retain the Blakes brand rather than go for the simple approach of painting the Hoseasons bluebird across the piste. Nevertheless Hoseasons keep the Blakes name very low key in their brochure, website and advertising. In fact it's so low key, if I was new to the Broads without any knowledge of Blakes very long history, I'd be wondering what the heck it was there for on the 3 Broads fleets where it still applies. Even Brooms, always in their history a Blakes name have returned under the blue bird banner. Hoseasons could, for example, choose to create a separate Blakes section in their brochure with a different look and feel to differentiate it, but they don't do anything like this. Is the Blakes brand worth keeping now? Does it mean more in the canal world where I notice there's still a strong presence of Blakes bases?

[LondonRascal]

Its’ funny because Blakes is owned by Hoseasons, but Hoseasons is not ‘Hoseasons’ as ever it was – it is the Hoseasons Group, part of Wyndham Rentals – and Wyndeham Rentals is part of an American company - Wyndham Worldwide Corporation.

So be it Blakes or Hoseasons they are now just names, which have a value – but while some of their staff say be passionate about – for example – the Norfolk Broads, they are as a company a tiny part of a much larger jigsaw which has no real bother about the area – just as long as boating holidays remain profitable for them that is the bottom line.

Long gone are the days of independent companies who would have a very different outlook and way about doing things – thus proving a real choice for the boatyards who used them as an agency, or the customer who booked time and again though their preferred agency.

Honestly I can see the day is coming when not only will Blakes vanish, but Hoseasons too (as far as boating in Norfolk) simply because there are every decreasing boatyards, and of those more and more are going their own way – have their own websites, freedom to set pricing and price bands and of course save on commission payments. I am sure most people who book through Hoseasons likely have visited their website to look at the boat in question in their brochure, and may very well have booked online too. Times are changing.

[Hockham Admiral]

Indeed they are, Robin!

When we went to book a summer holiday aboard in Holland this year we checked out Hoseasons' prices..... up to 50% higher than dealing directly with the Dutch boatyards..........

[Hockham Admiral]

I just wonder what a "sizeable cut" is John?

I see Ricco's advertising everywhere nowadays... even on the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network!

So perhaps that cut is getting just a bit too much?

[LondonRascal]

Hoseasons do take a sizeable cut, but obviously in return you're getting an established name that has their brochure in every travel agent in the country, a decent website and national television advertising as well as a customer service / admin function.

.... Unless it is First Choice local to me because I had not received the 2013 brochure popped into the branch and whereupon not having such on display I asked, and had a very bemused looking young woman look at me and ask..Hoseasons Boating?

One has to remember that once we all had to go to a travel agent to book a holiday, or we could do it 'direct' through a brochure - but deal with another agent on the phone. That continues with the likes of Expedia online, they are bringing together many choices in one place - not bad in the scheme of things but when you get down to it they have to be paid somewhere along the line.

If a boatyard can take its own bookings it works out better for them, and to advertise with Google is a good way to get the message out there because you can control so precisely how much that will cost you - how much you are charged per click of the advert or sponsored search - and then you have got someone on your website who may very well book a holiday with you - and that cost of getting the person on your site is peanuts compared to the cost of getting someone book through an agency and paying a commission. Because of that it is why I wonder how long agencies have (in respect of boating on the Broads).

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I just wonder what a "sizeable cut" is John?

I see Ricco's advertising everywhere nowadays... even on the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network!

So perhaps that cut is getting just a bit too much?

Hi John, we were told a few years ago by a former boatyard OWNER who was then working at another reptuable hirefleet (i don`t think it wise to mention names in public forum) that Hoseasons were taking as much as 22% of the brochures advertised hire fee. However, if you hire extras such as a dinghy etc, Hoseasons stipulate you do so directly with the yard, and don`t get any commision on them. That`s a lot when you consider something like one of Clives biggies go for around £2,000 per week in peak season (Richardsons was NOT the yard in question, sorry if there`s any confusion Clive), which would mean Hoseasons getting around £440 commision.

At first, you would think that`s extortionate, but when you consider tv advertising, millions of brochures printed and delivered, promotional expenses like shows, and media advertising etc, then you realise how much of a large chunk gets taken out of that commision. "Waterways holidays" however are a very differnt company with much lower overheads, so their fees are much lower, or so i`ve been told/, maybe Clive might give us some feedback on that?.

Regards to all ..................... Neil.

[LondonRascal]

I’ve heard that commission rates are about 15% - 20% - but while they (booking agency such as Hoseasons) may say we will on your behalf promote your business in our brochure, website, advertising and so on – and perhaps throw in some added benefits such as spreading cost of river tolls to be paid back over the year in instalments, it (in my opinion) worked well once upon a time, and in more recent history for a smaller business...but not so much for the larger businesses.

When you consider that if you have a larger yard, staff and the like you will likely with that scale be able to have meaningful budgets for your digital marketing – a website that is as good in design as the booking agency, is optimized just as well as the agency for search results and you take out banner adverts and sponsored search results – just like the agency – that commission payment to pay for promotion begins to be something less important as one can do that yourself.

Now what the agency has over the independent is they will bring in the newbie’s – maybe someone who booked on a canal thinks they will go with the Broads this year, or a family who had a cottage might like to try boating. The reason is that a single site has all the options, an independent sells only their own products.

Then there is ‘affiliated linking’ whereby you will get a fair percentage if someone booked a holiday through your website – but actually was handled through another – so in this case you may have ABC Boating and someone uses them to book, but the booking is handled through Hoseasons – Hoseasons gives ABC boating a percentage for the booking, Hoseasons then takes a commission from the boatyard. The boatyard gets a booking, Hoseasons gets commission and ABC boating gets a reward too. Granted this is more usual to be found in hotels and land based self catering than boating.

Now let’s take Richardson’s – I am sure they personally prefer a booking made direct with them – they have a customer of their own, on their mailing list they also have saved on all commission payments and in so doing have for the same holiday made ‘more money’ on that customer – but to be fair they will give some of that saving back, in the form of a loyalty scheme. This works well because it keeps the customer be that a first time booker or one who used to book with Hoseasons, with them.

Whilst the price paid is the same, the loyalty scheme makes practical sense for the customer to make future bookings with Richardson’s direct – also by so doing Richardson’s will in some cases keep that customer not just booking direct with them, but solely using them for their boating holidays – the reward of a discount on a later holiday keeps the customer pleased knowing full well that this could never have been achieved with another boatyard or if they had booked with Hoseasons.

In these leaner times it is more and more key to keep your customers happy and a solid base of returning customers – and I think that the industry for years has been in decline and hard up, in 2011 things actually looked to be going well, investments were made – take Brooms coming back into the hire industry - only for 2012 to be a nightmare summer of rain and chilly times coupled with a gloomy economy – and now 2013 has started with a mix of cold, snow and rain and yet more ‘high street names’ going under does not inspire confidence in people – even if their job is safe and money okay it causes caution.

So I think there is going to be less families this year booking, those who do will wait until they book and be a greater number of couples and the ‘silver pound’ being spent – over 50’s who want to have a relaxing holiday and who have the time and money to so do without the worry of the kids and cost of taking a whole family away.

Anyway I risk sounding like I know what I am talking about – but that is my guesstimate none the less.

[minor2011]

I mast be missing something here so please forgive me, but why don't the hire yards set up affiliate marketing themselves as hoeseasons does. This could open up a whole new customer base for them without relying on agents and wouldn't be too costly.

For those who don't know, an affiliate site (like google Adwords but with Banners as per our site header) is where the company places a banner ad on someone else's website. Every time someone clicks on the ad & makes a booking the website owner is paid a set fee.

This isn't too difficult to set up provides lots of extra traffic & most website owners would be happy at receiving ANY extra income.

When I had my own website I had lots of affiliate sites & whilst my payment was only £10 per transaction, this soon added up to become 20% of my online revenue. Quite profitable for me & my affiliates.

[VetChugger]

They once did methinks! The Helmsmans Association"??

Trevor

[Oddfellow]

I stated a thread elsewhere about the future of Hoseasons.

This organisation is nothing like it was, as has been pointed out.

As also pointed out, it's about money and not passion, but show me a national or multinational that can afford to be passionate about things. It's only the realm of small businesses that don't answer to shareholders that can afford passion.

Hoseasons is expensive. Damned expensive. Ferry Marina kicked them into touch for this season and have gone it alone. I know of at least one more large operator that's seriously considering it too.

Just how long Wyndham Rentals Group remains a big part of the Broads landscape remains to be seen, but to my mind, there is absolutley no need for them any more.

There is, however, considerable need for central Norfolk Broads marketing agency, in my opinion.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Hi Andy, i seem to remember being told the Blakes agency, though originally formed by Harry Blake in the early 1900s, was in latter days owned by the yards themselves, do you know if this is true, as your last comment about a central Broads (only?) booking agent was exactly the way Blakes started with the canals and Thames following some time later (or so i believe). Do you think it feasable for the remaining Broads yards to join together and buy out the Blakes branding, and would it be beneficial to ALL yards, both big and small?.

Regards to all ....................... Neil.

[Oddfellow]

You're right, it was owned by the yards at one time.

As far as I am concerned, the Blakes Branding is of little value to Norfolk. It would cost too much to procure it and I doubt that Wyndham (which is expanding faster than a glutton locked in Burger King) would want to sell.

There's scope to get this off the ground, for sure. Whether it would be beneficial to all yards is a matter of structure. However, I don't see why it shouldn't include all Broads holidays, attractions, accomodation and so on.

[LondonRascal]

It is my understanding that back in the day (but perhaps still) the yards which were with Hoseasons would each year get together and have a meeting – at this things would be talked about such as the outlook for the next seasons, pricing and ways to help better the bookings – midweek starts, short breaks you know the score.

It is interesting that Richardson’s have decided to offer 2 night breaks and Thursday starts for 5 night breaks – okay only a small number of boats, but on these days otherwise would be laid up not even available for hire. Small things but changes none the less.

Now it surely could not be that big of a leap for the hire yards – all of them – to come together and bring about not so much a booking agency for them, but a ‘promotional agency’ if you like – as Andy has pointed out – to really spread the word about the area, holidays afloat but also focus on the prime fishing, rental properties, hotels – generally get people interested in Broadland from far and wide.

Hoseasons recent television advert – had to cover all they offer, canals, broads, cottages, lodges etc – gone are the days when you would see a Hoseasons advert just for boating. So lets leave the booking agency behind and think about how people ‘on the ground’ can best promote the area they run the businesses in – after all they will know better than any outsider or marketing agency what their customers want and who their customers are (and who should be encouraged to be the next customers).

Thing is all takes time, and money. But there comes a point where you have to think do we sink without a fight or go down valiantly with a fight (that’s not to say anyone is going down anywhere) but you get the idea that if the big ship Hoseasons is getting closer to the rocks, jumping ship and doing something might be better in the long run.

Fact is if you did not know about the Norfolk Broads how would you find out about them, the fact you can holiday in the area and so on? Sure if you searched the web you would find out – but you would need to know to search or be interested in that to know. Some may say that is the job of the Tourism Board to promote the area – and yes if one was looking for holidays in Norfolk you might stumble over the fat you can hire boats there – but again that is for people who like Norfolk so searched for it – there is hope though – Aha! yes Alan Partridge is making the big screen and Cromer Pier is to be shut for a couple of days filming – you never know, after the film is released people may want to visit Norfolk, search and find ‘hey you can hire boats there too’.

[C.Ricko]

The yards in the Hoseasons /Blakes agency do have an annual get together (Richardsons do their best to support the bars at these events and are well known for it )

the problem is that few organisations are willing to promote 'new business' and the majority (including agents) seem to use each others names as search terms or discount to gain business which is alredy coming to the Broads.

[Brian]

Whos seen the latest Yellow Pages ? Our one is the size of a Children's Paperback book !

Everything is digital, Google, search, is the main player. Everyone i speak too, uses Google, to search for everything.

Heck i used it 5 mins a go to find the cheapest toner cartridge for my printer !, All ordered and its on its way.

The Boatyards are doing a fine job in self promotion.

Richardson catalogue is still sitting on my coffee table, ive read it 3 times and im close....

but it doesn't end there, Richardsons are investing in google adverts and addwords.

All very clever stuff.

When im using Chrome signed in, every other page i visit has a Richardson Holiday advert on it, Im being Stalked !!

So this is proof that the Yards can go it alone. The broads can sell themselves, all you need is a picture of a lovely new Broads Cruiser, Blue sky, green trees, and The boatyard Logo. A Great British Holiday, no queuing at Airports, no taking your clothes and socks off at baggage check.

Im staying in the UK certainly for the next few years !

Changing times ahead

[Oddfellow]

I don't agree. The Broads are in competition with The lake District, Dorset, Cornwall, Devon, Yorkshire Dales, Peak District, The Grand Union Canal, Thames, North Wales, Sun/sailing Holidays in Turkey, Cuprus, Corfu, Spain, France, Europe, Asia, The World.

Have I missed anywhere?

Getting people back to the Broads who are already converted is relativley simple; then all Broads businesses are in competition with one another. That's narrowing the field somewhat.

But what about new visitors? When as the last time you saw an advert saving "VISIT THE BROADS?" 1976 perhaps?

[C.Ricko]

I don't agree. The Broads are in competition with The lake District, Dorset, Cornwall, Devon, Yorkshire Dales, Peak District, The Grand Union Canal, Thames, North Wales, Sun/sailing Holidays in Turkey, Cuprus, Corfu, Spain, France, Europe, Asia, The World.

Have I missed anywhere?

Getting people back to the Broads who are already converted is relativley simple; then all Broads businesses are in competition with one another. That's narrowing the field somewhat.

But what about new visitors? When as the last time you saw an advert saving "VISIT THE BROADS?" 1976 perhaps?

indeed Andy, but have you done any advertising on or off the web (apart from your website)? you are doing exactly what you say is the problem

Getting people back to the Broads who are already converted is relativley simple; then all Broads businesses are in competition with one another. That's narrowing the field somewhat.

you are narrownig the field.

Please correct me if I have missed any adverts you have placed as I am sure not everyone sees mine, obviously my adverts have my name on them but they do say where we are.

[littlesprite]

I was talking to someone yesterday and mentioned the "where I lived thread" yes I know this is the "Blakes branding" thread, anyway I digress, this chap is mid twenties and has never had a holiday in the uk!

I was shocked, to say the least that his parents had always chased the sun and he has just followed suit, his children will probably grow up with the same mindset, "so why have you never considered a staycation" I ask, "weather" he said. He went on to explain that if it rains what is there to do, "nothing" he is starting to reach the age where a boat might interest him but children on a boat in the rain, Argggggggh.

I then started to run through a list of attractions such as, Wroxham barn, Bewilderwood, pettits, Thrigby, and more, "so these are all out of the rain" he said, "well you might get a little damp" I whisper under my breath.

So I realize that people will extol the virtue of the peace and quite, the nature all around, and there in lies the problem! some people want more and their numbers are growing, modern children (and adults) need their electronic toys and Norfolk doesn't do phone and broadband very well.

Do we except the dwindling numbers without a fight, do we give them "more" and upset the traditionalists, will the BA ever allow waterside development regardless of how unobtrusive, I'm sure many businesses are wondering the same thing.

[Oddfellow]

A valid point Clive. I don't advertise in the way that you mention. Put simply, I don't have the money to and, in truth, I doubt you do. That's kinda what I am on about. We're all self-promoting which is something we have to do. But perhaps we should be promoting the Broads as part of a wider thing?

Do we trust the main bodies to do this effectively on their own? Like hell I do. Reduced funding, red tape, ill-conceived decisions that take months to make and so on would stiffle any benefit that could be made here.

We need to make our own luck and now's the time to begin; do you really need Hoseasons any more?

[C.Ricko]

Hi Andy,

There is no need to doubt anything we do, we get some things right and others wrong, there is only one way not to get anything wrong.

It is not the case of 'can we afford to' more like 'can we afford not to'

you have just stated on another topic that you are not supporting 'nurture the Broads' as it may have red tape and costs involved but you mention everyone getting together and doing something. If everyone wants to get together and do something then I guess there would need to be an office involved which may need staffing and insuring?

we have a charitable trust where the work is done by business owners who get together in their own time to try and make a difference. there is also the added bonus of grants which all add to the pot.

however, we could all just sit back and wait for someone else to do it for us, I dont see what the problem is as it costs the business nothing and is a voulantary donation from the customer.

You ask if we need Hoseasons but perhaps you should ask yourself if you need and agent??

[Oddfellow]

Hi Andy,

...you have just stated on another topic that you are not supporting 'nurture the Broads' as it may have red tape and costs involved but you mention everyone getting together and doing something. If everyone wants to get together and do something then I guess there would need to be an office involved which may need staffing and insuring? ...

What I actually said was:

"I'd be very happy to support this, but can't help wondering at the overall effectiveness."

I'm not supporting this currently because I have not been invited to do so. I was actually rather peeved when I saw it launched last summer and the first I found out about it was details on a Ferry Marina advert. This brings me to my next point; what we have so far is a bunch of disjointed schemes, all with a common aim, but little cross-involvement. All the ideas are perfectly valid, I'm sure and the aims too are great, but it's lots of voices. I just feel that, as we're all in the same boat, we should be making one big voice and a lot of noise.

You're right, we can do things right or wrong and, often the only way of determining which it is is to try and learn.

[LondonRascal]

Before this turns into the latest Channel 5 docu drama ‘Clash of the boatyards’ This thread was about Blakes (more over agencies and what they do and the industry). What surprises me is how much I have to explain to people what the Broads are and where they are.

Yesterday I went to the barbers and while waiting was chatting to a couple of guys and saying how I was looking forward to going away, and being asked where it was I was going so I said it was a boat – their eyes lit up and asked me a bunch of questions such as ‘what you sleep on it and all’ – yep ‘ and you ‘drive it yourself’ – yep I said...

So where is that then they asked me - The Norfolk Broads I say – blank expression. It is in Norfolk I say, where is that – urm have you heard of Norwich, nope - well you know if you look at the ma of England, and the bit on the right that sticks out and curves – that part of the country... Anyway ended up me saying to ‘Google’ boating on the Norfolk broads.

The thing is as Andy said – there just is no advertising, information – you name it – going on (at least that I am aware of) promoting the area. Within the area there is a lot of talk, activity and the local paper often covers stories and editorial from the Broads and its businesses – but outside the county all goes mute.

My father works on a trade publication and when Google set up shop everyone thought that would be the end of advertising as we knew it, yet just like the channel tunnel did not actually see of the ferries, print advertising still has its place. The problem with advertising in print is you have to pay up a lot up front in the hope of some returns, where as with the Google banner ad model you only pay when a potential customer clicks your advert. Tricky things is knowing what your scope is for the digital adverts (websites, platforms and so on) and how much per click you are willing to pay – not to mention biding on keywords and such like.

People make a lot of money working that sort of thing out because it is all rather complicated and good old Google only give so much away – so you are left hoping that your adverts will be doing what you want them to and shown on sites relevant to your business. No single business can take on the task to promote an area, but a group could.

Far fetched idea approaching: You come up with a campaign based on banner adverts, as an example, set up a ‘pre-pay account’ come to an agreement on the message e.g. ‘Go boating in Norfolk’ and how much spending there is - and everyone puts a bit into the pot – it runs and I am pretty sure you could have several campaigns within an ad group where by the same banner can concurrently run but link to (in this case different yards) websites – it would run until the pot is depleted and then.... see if anything came out of it. If bookings increased it was a good thing, if they did not as long as the contribution to the pot of money was not too great it would not be a huge loss.

[C.Ricko]

What I actually said was:

I'm not supporting this currently because I have not been invited to do so. I was actually rather peeved when I saw it launched last summer and the first I found out about it was details on a Ferry Marina advert. This brings me to my next point; what we have so far is a bunch of disjointed schemes, all with a common aim, but little cross-involvement. All the ideas are perfectly valid, I'm sure and the aims too are great, but it's lots of voices. I just feel that, as we're all in the same boat, we should be making one big voice and a lot of noise.

You're right, we can do things right or wrong and, often the only way of determining which it is is to try and learn.

Fair enough,

I think the we found out about it from the Broads Tourism Forum and also the Broads hire boat Federation.

which most of us are members of one, the other or both.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I know this thread is about Blakes branding, but just out of interrest, has you had any success with "Waterways holidays"?, as when i was talking to John at Maffett Cruisers last year, and he sad now they`re in the Waterways agency, he`s had an increase in bookings for his boat "Jay", which was pretty slow before. How would you rate the percentages (Clive) between Hoseasons and Waterways, or is that something you can`t comment on in public forum?. Also to Andy (Freedom.....) are you in the Waterways agency, and if so, has it been beneficial to you?.

Regards to all ..................... Neil.

[Oddfellow]

Freedom doesn't use any additioanl agency.

However, from talks with other operators, Waterways is reportingly doing an increasingly good job against Hoseasons.