Richardsons RC45 and RC35

[Broadlander3]

'Halcyon' 'Fulmar'...yes

Hi Neil...Just love your idea to resurrect some of the names from days past...as I'm sure you are aware that the 50's - 70's were what I still consider to be the 'heyday' of Broads Boat Building with differing styles coming from individual yards...

Once fibreglass arrived on the scene (and I'm not knocking it...some lovely boats out there...been on enough ) the only redeeming feature in most cases was the external paintwork...after all an 'Ocean 30' will always be an 'Ocean 30' if you get my drift...Just different yards putting their own stamp on internal fitment ect...

However...back to the name issue... ...My thoughts are as yours Neil and have mentioned this to Clive previously

Psst...Just in case he's listening

What I would like would be a revival of one of my (and Clives) love of the past 'Broadsventure'...Now we're talking...but with a different twist to differentiate from the IMHO only class of boat worthy of that name...

Here we go Clive...'Broads Venture' as befitting a craft of this size and would fit in well with the existing fleet of 'Broads Serenade (another old name) - 'Broads Harmony/Sunrise/and 'Sunset'...and after all it is a new venture

Come on Clive...How about it ??

Best Regards...The old 'Broadlander'...

[C.Ricko]

At the moment there is only one Broadsventure afloat, I may leave it like that unless someone gets another on the water.

how about 'Tweedledum' and Tweedledee' ?

[Broadlander3]

Now theres some old names to conjure with...Lovely...

[goodall_m1]

Thats a bonus Andy!

I saw your boat in the shed and had heard about some jobs to do, I will have a look next week, Bountys have a tendancy to rot the floors in the rear cabins, outside the shower doors and just about everywhere!

Clive, make sure you do a good job on her as I've booked her for a week in the summer!

[C.Ricko]

Hi Martin,

We are not doing the work on her, Andy (Freedom) is renting shed space at Stalham to do the job himself.

[goodall_m1]

Hi Martin,

We are not doing the work on her, Andy (Freedom) is renting shed space at Stalham to do the job himself.

I'm sure that he will do a good job on her, he's got my hire fee to help pay you the rent, so he won't have to rush it!

[Oddfellow]

MIke,

It's like the proverbial Pandora's box - the more I take out, the more work I uncover.

It's booked for Easter, so we've got our work cut out. Rather than hijacking Clives thread (sorry, Clive) I'll post regular updates on our blog: http://freedomcruisers.blogspot.com/

[Guest]

Cracking buy at about £25,000 each those Bounty 40s and even less for the Alphas.

Roy

[C.Ricko]

Hi Roy,

they do need plenty of work, toilets and toilet tanks/plinths (and the seatoilet holes glassing up), the canopies slide straight back (not down on the runners) the first bounty needed a new head as two valves were burnt out, and the whole rear cabin floor and bearers were rotten. We are also fitting a new galley as the old one is dated. the hull has had some bad repairs and a really bad paint job the windows have been gobbed in with silicone so will need rebedding.

plus a few other jobs

But, when she is ready she will be good for many years of affordable holidays.

[C.Ricko]

things have been happening, the frames are all made and the ring has been lifted out of the mould today and levelled up on the trolley,

in the first picture you can see we strengthened the ring with some half inch plywood bonded on to it.

and in the last two we sat the ring on a level bed so that it did not wring before we fith the frames to the bed and lift the ring to it, in the background you can see some of the frames assembled ready to be fitted.

[Oddfellow]

We saw this happening yesterday - most interesting to see the birth of the future of Broads boating.

I like the large posters in the background of the shed remining everyone what they're working to build.

[Antares_9]

The design is becoming much clearer now Clive, pity I envisaged the ring incorperating some decent side decks. Slill I guess interior space is a higher priority when she will have to earn her living so the more berths and other space the better.

[goodall_m1]

The design is becoming much clearer now Clive, pity I envisaged the ring incorperating some decent side decks. Slill I guess interior space is a higher priority when she will have to earn her living so the more berths and other space the better.

From Clive's earlier postings I thought that "the ring" is purely a device to give them the actual shape of the upper hull which they can use to build a matching superstructure plug on. The timber inner ring is there to give it strength and stop the weight of the plug deforming the ring.

If the hull plug had come out cleanly as intended they might have had a complete hull moulded to work on but unfortunately that isnt the case.

As such we havent seen any front-on view of the completed design to see what the plan layout of the superstructure is going to be,

and I imagine that any side decks will be included in the superstructure moulding.

Am I thinking along the right lines Clive or have I got it completely wrong?

Martin

[kfurbank]

Martin,

I think you are right. The finished boat will only have the two major components, hull and superstructure. Early Broads boats used to be moulded with a flange at 90 degrees to the hull and superstructure. The two parts were assembled by simply laying the superstructure on top of the hull. The two halfs were then bonded together with glass and mat on the inside. The flange on the outside was then covered with a large plastic pipe cut along it's length, separated and slipped over the flange to form a rubbing strake. This is a notorious weak spot, especially on the rear corners because when people bump the corners hard against the quay heading all the flange crumbles and breaks up within the rubbing strake. Once this flange is damaged it is very hard to refit the rubbing strake and almost impossible to repair and rebuild the flange strong enough to make any real lasting repair. i looked into having my rubbing strake replaced and was told that the process of removing it was likely to lead to even more of the flange breaking away. Therefore the rest would need to be cut off, the join strengthend on the inside and then a new flatter profile rubbing strake screwed on from the outside. A nasty and expensive job which is why my boat still sports the distintive Barnes light Blue rubbing strake. Why couldn't they have used Black like everyone else

Modern designs now use the "biscuit tin" moulding where the superstructure sits on top of the hull and overlaps down the side for about 3 inches. A rubbing strake is fitted and screwed through the two sections to hold them together. I'm not sure if they are bonded or not, but I'm guessing if not the two halfs could actually be separated in the future if need be. For this design it is imperative that the superstructre is moulded to close tolerence to ensure it actually slips over the hull and doesn't just butt up to it, or is too large so that there is too large a gap that can not be closed by screwing the rubbing strake on and pulling the two parts together. I believe the ring that you see is the stiffened template to ensure the superstructure is moulded to fit the hull precisely.

The Alpha 35s like mine and Rod's are examples of the first moulding method. The newer Alphas like Bolero and Spitfire use the biscuit tin method.

I am watching this thread with interest because to date there has been no newer boat than mine that's fits all my criteria. If the centre cockpit sliding roof RC35 clears the bridges at the heights proposed it could well be goodbye Alpha 35 and resigning my membership of the AOC (Alpha Owners Clob) sorry Rod. I'd beter start doing that overtime now then.

[Guest]

I'm just loving this thread still - thanks Clive for continuing to post. Also, Martin thanks for the description of the biscuit tin method. I know our Alpha 32 was a nightmare 'under the pipe' and had some interesting repairs in it's past around the rear corners and elsewhere on the rubbing strake.

Interestingly, one of my dads boats, his Sheerline 740, has a wooden rubbing strake all the way round - which although showing early signs of rot in places, seems to be a whole load more robust - but more difficult to make in the first place - than the poly pipe method of the earlier moulds. I haven't looked in too much detail though to see how the superstructure and hull fit together though.

Finally, I just love the pictures of the French boats being delivered! It did make me wonder if the Bounty's were delivered by sea like the pictures on the brochure on the Bounty Owners website? I'm always (sad I know!) fascinated when a boat is built in Norfolk, runs abroad for years and then 'comes home' liket this.

Best wishes,

James.

[goodall_m1]

I'm just loving this thread still - thanks Clive for continuing to post. Also, Martin thanks for the description of the biscuit tin method. .

James,

More like thanks to Kfurbank for the explanation of the "Biscuit Tin" method.

I'm still wondering how they fit the superstructure OVER the hull when the hull is sloping outwards?

The only boat that I have ever owned was a Laser dinghy which was definitly a flange moulding design.

This thread will make me look harder at how the next two broads boats that I am taking out, and compare the two techniques.

I've got my short break on Spitfire next month, perhaps I could ask a few questions at Alphacraft when I pick her up.

My "summer" boat, Fair Freedom, is currently having her flanges sorted out, judging by the photos on the FreedomBoatingholidays.com blog.

I certainly had never realised that the rubbing strake was actually used to cover a weak spot in a GRP boats design.

I would have thought that it needed to protrude out from a stronger base to protect the weaker spots.

This is certainly a very informative thread, we do learn a lot from the wooden restoration threads,

but here we are getting closer to the sort of vessel that most of us use and hopefully as it progresses

we will learn even more about how they are put together.

I am wating with intrest to see a see a bow-on plan of the RC45, in order to see what allowances for arched bridges will be built in.

I've only managed to grt through Wroxham twice (in the days before the pilot) and Potter twice (with the pilot),

and have always wondered why they dont give the clearence say 4 feet out from the centre rather than the middle.

I've never hired a broads cruiser where the top was semi-circular!

Martin

Martin

[Guest]

More like thanks to Kfurbank for the explanation of the "Biscuit Tin" method

Ooops, sorry Martin and Kfurbank - I should read more carefully about who posted!

I think some of the early broads GRP cruisers (Wilds, Bounty 37's etc) were built to a price to be honest. I've seen some terrible work on early Wilds craft (sorry Dan - apologies for slating your fave Wilds!) including one with layup so poor that it had 'sagged' over the years. Mass produced to get them out into the hirefleets quickly I assume.

I'm also going to have a closer look at some of the joining methods at both of Dads Sheerlines and also our 'Summer' boat too (Sovereign from Richos).

Best wishes,

James.

[kfurbank]

Martin,

The last part of the hull will rise vertically upright for about 3 inches to provide the overlap that fits inside the superstructure. When your on Spitfire ask to see Langford Gillings. I have been to see them a couple of times with regard to various aspects of my boat. They are always proud to show of their latest work and I have even had a guided tour of the moulding workshop including an overview of how it is all done. It was Langford that explained the difference between how my boat is fitted together and the later biscuit tin moulds.

I think the main problem with the rubbing strake is that it's true purpose is not to cushion blows from poor handling when mooring, but to provide an edge for the fenders to sit against to protect the boat from damage caused by rubbing up and down aganst a mooring. Hence the name rubbing strake. A lot of Broads hire boats including mine often have a secondary rubbing strake 18 inches or so below the upper one, which often is where the fenders actually rest against, thereby providing no fender protecion to the upper rubbing strake. Many private craft and sea going craft only have the one rubbing strake because generally speaking the owners are more careful when mooring and don't rely on the rubbing strake for protection. They generally spoil the lines and appearence of a boat.

Keith

[Dan]

Ooops, sorry Martin and Kfurbank - I should read more carefully about who posted!

I think some of the early broads GRP cruisers (Wilds, Bounty 37's etc) were built to a price to be honest. I've seen some terrible work on early Wilds craft (sorry Dan - apologies for slating your fave Wilds!) including one with layup so poor that it had 'sagged' over the years. Mass produced to get them out into the hirefleets quickly I assume. ....

[Guest]

Hi Dan - knew that would prompt a quick reply!

Yes, you're right, they were of course cutting edge for the time, so I am perhaps being a bit harsh. They were revolutionary that did indeed spark the start of the modern broads fleet that we know today (complete with modern heritage in some of Alphas mouldings).

As you say, to still be on hire nearly 40 years later is some accolade indeed!

Our Alpha had also done surprisingly well after nearly 25 years in a hire fleet to be honest - can hardly expect it to be immaculate after a hard hire life. The main weak point with ours seemed to be the rear corners, under the rubbing strake (I had a splinter or GRP in my finger to prove it!) and the superstructure moulding near the transom that had obviously taken quite a battering over the years, and I suppose is quite difficult to repair succesfully.

Best wishes,

James.

[Guest]

We've been following this thread with avid interest and it seems that some members are not aware of the detailed 3D drawings that Clive posted late last year. Scroll back to Page 18 of this thread and look for Clive's post dated 15th December. Click on his attachment and all will be revealed.

The pdf file clearly shows what the new craft will look like, especially the semi-circular airdraft profile for passage under Wroxham and Potter bridges and the generous wide decks of the superstructure.

Just a pointer as to what will be an amazing boat in real life, a worthy successor to the benchmark Alpha 35 and 42 centre cockpit designs.

Keep us up to date and informed, Clive. Fascinating thread.

Pete and Susanne

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

Bloody hell wherryman, i`d hate to have to comb that beard

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

Seriously though, i`ve just gone back to the page and had another look. i like the way the sliding top fits very snugly to the aft cabin top, as so many broads designs have sliding roofs that don`t slide all the way down. If this one does exactly what it shows in the pdf, it should have a very low air draught. Regards to all............................Neil.

[Oddfellow]

There's some interesting posts on the problems with flanged edges on mouldings here and comments on delamination. Also, some comments on the black piping used for rubbing strake.

The Bounty 44 we're working on right now is a good example of these issues. The flanging is a weak spot and damage to this is a cause of delamination. Consider the flange, it's a gutter on both the top and bottom of the join between the two halves. Damage to this means that any moisture laying there simply seaps into the GRP layup which, over time, causes delamination.

The gutters are week spots and whole sections of these have been removed from our Bounty 44 in the past, being replaced with ali stripping that can support the black pipe rubbing strake. This is a much better solution, but not a whole lot easier to handle - the black pipe is usually just a heavy-duty electrical conduit which is remarkably stiff and difficult to work. It's certainly not "slipped over the flange" as kfurbank says (no offence). Ideally, it needs a special tool to get it on the flanges and plenty of heat - a steambox is handy or simply shove a steam pressure washer lance in one end, set it off and return an hour or so later when, God willing, the material may just be plyable.

The bonding between the two havles needs to be watertight and solid - a couple of screws/rivets (or even a couple of thousand) aren't really suitable. Again, we're rebonding about 16 foot of the front end of our Bounty 44. Over the years, collision damage and delamination have literally separated large parts of the bonding and simply delaminated the bond. Preparation is tedious and hard work as we're working through small access panels in the front well and have created so much dust that it looks like it's been snowing in the shed. We've been at it a week so far and it's still not finished.

Still, this is a 36 year old boat that's been on hire throughout its life; despite the obvious problems with design, it's done rather well.

The "buscuit tin" method as described here is certainly a better idea if for no other reason that any moisture that enters the join first has to work it's way up before it can enter the GRP lamination. It also allows you to properly bond two surfaces; inside the join and outside it (on the inside of the hull, obviously). Whether the inner join is bonded or not, I'm not too sure; I guess it is rather difficult to get a bonding/sealing agent in if it's a tight fit.

I know that the new Richardson''s boats are designed to provide a couple of decades worth of hire at the least and expect a superiour build quality. There's a lot of money lost on a hire fleet when things go wrong; engineers time wasted on breakdowns, boat builders time on repairs, unhappy customers not returning and so on. Getting it right first time is of paramount importance and with the heritage and experience that Ricos have behind them, these new vessels are set to be first class.

[kfurbank]

Hi Andy,

the black pipe is usually just a heavy-duty electrical conduit which is remarkably stiff and difficult to work. It's certainly not "slipped over the flange" as kfurbank says (no offence).

No offence taken. My understanding is that because it is so stiff trying to remove the whole lot, to replace it will mean removing, whether you intend to or not, large portions of the grp flange. That's without trying to fit a replacement. I had a problem where because the corners were weak, when the sun was on the boat in the Summer and the rubbing strake expanded it would pop off the corners being the weakest point, which prompted me to explore repair or replacement. Off course it always came off easier than it went back on. As mine were not too bad I have solved it with two strategically placed coach bolts through the rubbing strake and hull, loose enough that the rubbing strake can not pop off, but it can still expand and slide back and forth. I did however notice that water retained on top ofthe flange was making it's way through the joint and seeping it's way through the fibres and running down the inside of the hull. A couple of strategically placed drain holes drilled vertically down through the flange seems to have cured that, although I have to keep an eye out for them becoming blocked. I guess on a lot of boats the action of the pipe expanding back and forth along the flange has worn through the gel, along with crash damage has exposed the fibres leading to water ingress and delamination. The biscuit tin method certainly overcomes these problems.

So without meaning to hijack Clives excellent thread, what can anybody tell me about Crystic Copper Clad? More specifically was it ever banned? why did people stop using it? Is it still available? How do you repair / reapply it? etc.?