Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care

[LondonRascal]

Quote

I go back to my original comment that the centre tank is for ballast only and can be used as the reserve when fuel gets low.

I think to be fair the centre tank can be used as ballast only but could be used to form part of the overall capacity of useful fuel.

If I just take the centre tank and regard it as ballast as you suggest, and thus isolate it from everything else, then unless I need to call upon it in a low fuel situation,  effectively the fuel in the centre tank will just sit there - maybe for years - never being used.

I therefore would prefer the fuel to be able to move between all three tanks, and  in 'everyday use' be drawn from the centre tank - but have fuel returned not to it, but to the port and starboard tanks. This way all the fuel will be of equal age and quality.

I could not run out of fuel (unless I was really stupid) because when both side tanks fuel gauges were showing empty there would in fact remain a full centre tank  with 90 gallons in it. This would also always ensure the 'ballasting effect' of this tank would never be lost.

Now, it is true to say that by doing this, should I refuel and that fuel is contaminated it will have got everywhere - in short if i had an issue with it, I would  have three tanks full of issues.  If that was bad enough to cause me a complete engine failure at sea - well I guess that would be seen on my part as a bad call of judgement, but then equally if I kept the centre tank isolated and the two side tanks equally isolated (other than from fuel return from each engine connected to it) how would that mitigate a contaminated fuel problem?

I ask, since I would have to fill both port and starboard tanks separately (as they would not be cross connected) so the nasty fuel would end up in both anyway. The first I would know is when the engines began hunting. Now yes, I would have a centre fuel tank unaffected by the contaminated fuel,  but if that fuel was say 5 years old and little known to me had a lot of sludge in it, bringing that online would not be the saving grace - I would still end up with three tanks of of nasty fuel.

I hope that overall  through seasonal fuel polishing I will ensure the fuel was in free from water in the tanks through whatever means, and diesel bug . Compared to everything else, having this done is cheap.  At the end of the day though, the boat is not going to see a lot of heavy work at sea so once we have done this trip and re-filled her tanks they won't be depleted for a long time again.

[LondonRascal]

Quote

Sorry but how do we know the vent pipes are 1/2" and there is a second filler cap?

Because the fuel lines are the smaller yellow lines, the 1/2" pipe comes out the top of the tank and heads up and away towards the deck (vent) and the 1 1/2" pipe is the cross connecting balance pipe. There is a second filler cap. During fuel polishing both caps were removed, fuel being drawn out of port side, and put back in starboard side after filtration.

Quote

But a boat yard can be as good as a garage, if you are not mechanically minded, what comes out of their mouth can be rocket science to you and money in their pocket to them. 

This is why Google, You Tube and Forums like this help make the rocket science seem easy to understand.

It also helps having asked people, researched things and learnt to then contact an engineer and then  instead of asking 'what is wrong', you tell him what is wrong then ask 'do you agree?' and wait to see his reaction. The fact you have gone in there first with an understanding of the issue makes him feel naturally he has to either match it or beat it - but  the option of pulling the wool over your eyes has gone since you seem to know a good degree about what may be up and are no fool to con.

[KaptinKev]

12 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

 

This is why Google, You Tube and Forums like this help make the rocket science seem easy to understand.

But you have to appreciate Robin that I have been in this mechanical/electrical world for years and more likely to understand quicker than you. But I assume the work that you deal in would leave me well behind too, so I believe forums like this can bring all sorts of our working life together even if it does take time to understand.

[LondonRascal]

The problem (if one calls is that) is there are now too many, very well educated and trained people sharing their skills, freely online. That never ever used to happen - if you wanted to learn something you needed to have ether studied at it, and then gained on the job experience - know someone who had already and would personally tell you - or for a 'rough overview' read up on something in a book.

Now, you can not only get many technical points in seconds on a Google search, but now people are actually sitting down and showing it all in videos and competing against others to film and show it off the best. This is a huge deal because it democratises so many areas of life.

You still need the touch and skill to spray paint like a pro - but now you can get the best equipment, paints and then watch countless videos of professional talking through how much psi to use, the motion, speed in which you move the gun over the surface, distance etc and then people go out there and give it a go. But if they choose not to and still employ the professional that understanding helps them not be hood winked.

We find this far more often now where people will come to a Solicitor and and already know the entire process off by heart through Google - not that we ever would, but I know firms who have done things like charge the earth for effectively form filling exercises. That sort of thing is just not possible now. It can have the detrimental effect however where everyone thinks they are an expert.

 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

I think to be fair the centre tank can be used as ballast only but could be used to form part of the overall capacity of useful fuel.

If I just take the centre tank and regard it as ballast as you suggest, and thus isolate it from everything else, then unless I need to call upon it in a low fuel situation,  effectively the fuel in the centre tank will just sit there - maybe for years - never being used.

I therefore would prefer the fuel to be able to move between all three tanks, and  in 'everyday use' be drawn from the centre tank - but have fuel returned not to it, but to the port and starboard tanks. This way all the fuel will be of equal age and quality.

I could not run out of fuel (unless I was really stupid) because when both side tanks fuel gauges were showing empty there would in fact remain a full centre tank  with 90 gallons in it. This would also always ensure the 'ballasting effect' of this tank would never be lost.

Now, it is true to say that by doing this, should I refuel and that fuel is contaminated it will have got everywhere - in short if i had an issue with it, I would  have three tanks full of issues.  If that was bad enough to cause me a complete engine failure at sea - well I guess that would be seen on my part as a bad call of judgement, but then equally if I kept the centre tank isolated and the two side tanks equally isolated (other than from fuel return from each engine connected to it) how would that mitigate a contaminated fuel problem?

I ask, since I would have to fill both port and starboard tanks separately (as they would not be cross connected) so the nasty fuel would end up in both anyway. The first I would know is when the engines began hunting. Now yes, I would have a centre fuel tank unaffected by the contaminated fuel,  but if that fuel was say 5 years old and little known to me had a lot of sludge in it, bringing that online would not be the saving grace - I would still end up with three tanks of of nasty fuel.

I hope that overall  through seasonal fuel polishing I will ensure the fuel was in free from water in the tanks through whatever means, and diesel bug . Compared to everything else, having this done is cheap.  At the end of the day though, the boat is not going to see a lot of heavy work at sea so once we have done this trip and re-filled her tanks they won't be depleted for a long time again.

Diesel oil does not degrade with age even in a ballast tank..

Until one day you meet bad weather  and you are delayed held at sea for a day or so. Then you will have real respect of your reserve tank, like it was a block of gold.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Because the fuel lines are the smaller yellow lines, the 1/2" pipe comes out the top of the tank and heads up and away towards the deck (vent) and the 1 1/2" pipe is the cross connecting balance pipe. There is a second filler cap. During fuel polishing both caps were removed, fuel being drawn out of port side, and put back in starboard side after filtration.

This is why Google, You Tube and Forums like this help make the rocket science seem easy to understand.

It also helps having asked people, researched things and learnt to then contact an engineer and then  instead of asking 'what is wrong', you tell him what is wrong then ask 'do you agree?' and wait to see his reaction. The fact you have gone in there first with an understanding of the issue makes him feel naturally he has to either match it or beat it - but  the option of pulling the wool over your eyes has gone since you seem to know a good degree about what may be up and are no fool to con.

 

45 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Because the fuel lines are the smaller yellow lines, the 1/2" pipe comes out the top of the tank and heads up and away towards the deck (vent) and the 1 1/2" pipe is the cross connecting balance pipe. There is a second filler cap. During fuel polishing both caps were removed, fuel being drawn out of port side, and put back in starboard side after filtration.

This is why Google, You Tube and Forums like this help make the rocket science seem easy to understand.

It also helps having asked people, researched things and learnt to then contact an engineer and then  instead of asking 'what is wrong', you tell him what is wrong then ask 'do you agree?' and wait to see his reaction. The fact you have gone in there first with an understanding of the issue makes him feel naturally he has to either match it or beat it - but  the option of pulling the wool over your eyes has gone since you seem to know a good degree about what may be up and are no fool to con.

Thing is if you have the ability and skill to know what the problem is then why not sort it yourself , i can think of a lot of marine engineers in Norfolk that might well take exception at being told that you know as much as they do in identifying problem's with boats and  especially marine engines  after all their yrs of experience in their trade  , a far better approach is to give them clear indications of how the problem manifested its self and exactly what is going wrong , the diagnosis of the problem is the reason your putting your faith In them in the first place , by all means make suggestion's but don't tell a trades man his job it never goes down well , its not a competition to out do the engineer or you might find he refuses the job .

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ricardo said:

 

Thing is if you have the ability and skill to know what the problem is then why not sort it yourself , in can think of a lot of marine engineers in Norfolk that might well take exception at being told that you know as much as they do in identifying problem's with boats and  especially marine engines  after all their yrs of experience in their trade  , a far better approach is to give them clear indications of how the problem manifested its self and exactly what is going wrong , the diagnosis of the problem is the reason your putting your faith In them in the first place , by all means make suggestion's but don't tell a trades man his job it never goes down well , its not a competition to out do the engineer or you might find he refuses the job .

If we are talking about sea going boats up to 100 miles offshore, what do you do when one or both of your engines start to "cough"

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

If we are talking about sea going boats up to 100 miles offshore, what do you do when one or both of your engines start to "cough"

 

Sorry but I don't see the relevance at all .

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ricardo said:

Sorry but I don't see the relevance at all .

i'm also sorry, but my question was when you are 100+ miles from the shore who do you ask for assistance..... probably your crew.  

[ExSurveyor]

The biggest danger is someone whose opinion of their own expertise is greater than their actual ability.

I have dealt with various "tradesmen" who claim to be experts with years of experience, but are fools on the make,  they end up being shown the door.

Others who don't shout about how good they are but can diagnose a minor fault for a fraction of the price.

Recommendations are priceless.

 

[BroadAmbition]

If we are talking about sea going boats up to 100 miles offshore, what do you do when one or both of your engines start to "cough"

You would:-

1) Have the skills to sort it theesen

2)  Hope I'm onboard

3) Get on the blower!

Griff

[LondonRascal]

Quote

Until one day you meet bad weather  and you are delayed held at sea for a day or so. Then you will have real respect of your reserve tank, like it was a block of gold.

I am sure that is very true and have heard countless stories where people have planned and planned turn up to a fuel pontoon to find the pump broken, the tanker has not delivered etc etc and suddenly the next nearest fuel point is several hours cruise away. Some come really close to disaster - running one engine to eek out the last of their fuel, the better prepared expect such could happen and if it does have enough in reserve.

I respect that therefore, but also hope I will not find myself in such a place because of the amount of times the boat, in my ownership will be at sea for extended periods is remote - I am planning to have enough in the tanks to go where I am, and go back again. Modern diesel fuels do degrade over time so you cannot just expect it to be as good as the day you put it in your tank 18 months later - though the process is very slow compared to say petrol and many studies show this.

Quote

Thing is if you have the ability and skill to know what the problem is then why not sort it yourself , in can think of a lot of marine engineers in Norfolk that might well take exception at being told that you know as much as they do in identifying problem's with boats and  especially marine engines  after all their yrs of experience in their trade  , a far better approach is to give them clear indications of how the problem manifested its self and exactly what is going wrong , the diagnosis of the problem is the reason your putting your faith In them in the first place , by all means make suggestion's but don't tell a trades man his job it never goes down well , its not a competition to out do the engineer or you might find he refuses the job .

I don't do things myself because I look at the situation, go away and spend a few hours working out things - its pretty logical when you are dealing with mechanical items and not electronics. Having figured things out the best I can, I then realise  it will be a messy protracted job and I'd rather have someone do it for me if at all possible and pay them.

You have a good point though to my attitude -  it is in all honesty it is probably why All Boat Services did not want to do business with me as I went to them with a list of products to source, estimated retail values of them and asked for them to provide a rough quote to supply and install them. They were keen to begin, and then went off the boil and I did not chase - having said that it would have been over £40,000 of business to them. It would also have created work for a panel manufacture to come up with a new helm console to have the screens flush mounted in,  bespoke switch gear put and so on. But that will wait until later in the year and another company who I am sure would be happy take up where they left off, just as Mount Batten Boathouse have been happy to take on the works they have.

My view might not seem correct - but I am equally not rude - however I think in this day and age it should be expected someone to say 'this is what I want doing' and a company be happy to oblige in exchange for their fee.

[Guest]

Just now, BroadAmbition said:

If we are talking about sea going boats up to 100 miles offshore, what do you do when one or both of your engines start to "cough"

You would:-

1) Have the skills to sort it theesen

2)  Hope I'm onboard

3) Get on the blower!

Griff

I go with number 2

 

[BroadAmbition]

Recommendations are priceless.

Aren't they just - Best way to go everytime

Griff

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

The biggest danger is someone whose opinion of their own expertise is greater than their actual ability.

I have dealt with various "tradesmen" who claim to be experts with years of experience, but are fools on the make,  they end up being shown the door.

Others who don't shout about how good they are but candiagnose a minor fault for a fraction of the price.

Recommendations are priceless.

 

please are any any "tradesmen" involved in this discussion, in which case please identify them. 

[KaptinKev]

22 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

 It can have the detrimental effect however where everyone thinks they are an expert.

 

I know my stuff Robin and give advice what I am sure about

 

7 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

The biggest danger is someone whose opinion of their own expertise is greater than their actual ability.

I have dealt with various "tradesmen" who claim to be experts with years of experience, but are fools on the make,  they end up being shown the door.

Others who don't shout about how good they are but candiagnose a minor fault for a fraction of the price.

Recommendations are priceless.

 

If it means anything, I never advertise!

[BroadAmbition]

I know my stuff Robin and give advice what I am sure about  /  If it means anything, I never advertise!

Er, you just did!

Griff

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

The biggest danger is someone whose opinion of their own expertise is greater than their actual ability.

I have dealt with various "tradesmen" who claim to be experts with years of experience, but are fools on the make,  they end up being shown the door.

Others who don't shout about how good they are but candiagnose a minor fault for a fraction of the price.

Recommendations are priceless.

 

Exactly right recommendations are priceless and yes while there are plenty of fools on the make there are plenty that do know their stuff the hard part is separating the 2 .

I think I'll now retire from this thread as while I do know a heck of a lot  having had quite a lot of experience I don't know everything and wouldn't want to come across as such and work on the principal that you never stop learning and never ever make yourself out to be something you are not .

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

I go with number 2

 

Why ? 

[ExSurveyor]

A recommendation is worth a stack of paid for advertising.

I know a little bit about a lot and not a lot about anything.

[KaptinKev]

6 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

I know my stuff Robin and give advice what I am sure about  /  If it means anything, I never advertise!

Er, you just did!

Griff

I'm sure KaptinKev Electrical doesn't exist!

[Siddy]

1 minute ago, KaptinKev said:

The biggest danger is someone whose opinion of their own expertise is greater than their actual ability.

Were working with Robin here who does look into everything and makes his mind up BUT does put his hand up when he picks the wrong route to the solution.

I look after large office buildings and deal with contractors all the time, we have site based teams etc. You can tell a engineer when he drops the cooling setting lower than it should be to speed up the cooling up. Doesn't work on a standard 1 stage system he may as well cut a foot of the kettle lead to make it boil faster.

I like the here is the issue go have a look and then we pool the solution from each others findings.

 

 

[ExSurveyor]

4 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

Why ? 

Because you would be better with Griff than you would be with me

His jokes are better as well.

[KaptinKev]

18 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

I go with number 2

 

You mean an ex John Smiths Navvy

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

Why ? 

Sorry Mr. Griff I don't know you and I've never met you, but from what i've read, maybe you could be quite useful 100 miles offshore with a problem.