Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care

[ExSurveyor]

Robin,  I have a cunning plan

Can you access a second pontoon shore power supply,  then isolate the aircon/ heating to a dedicated supply from the second power  post,  simples

[LondonRascal]

While I am not trying to create a house inside a boat, I am trying to remove as many compromises one might find on a boat. I am currently happy to heat with electric fan heaters and convectors but long term that not only is not very efficient it does not look very nice having a lovely cabin and then a white convector heater on the floor. Once I have the boat in Norfolk I will work to combine various methods to heat a boat (diesel based) and then get a survey undertaken to install a split commercial chiller/heating system. Such systems with variable speed compressors start slow and ramp up gradually keeping within my power limitations at the berth, it is a shame that the berth only has 16Amp supply though especially when the B.A posts have a 32Amp socket on them!

So far as the weight up top goes, this will be a 'suck it and see' situation. Most Trader 535 Sunliners have a RIB on the top and a crane to get it up and down from there, but these are small affairs with a relatively outboard motor - the crane too is tiny compared to what I have (and is on the starboard side) see example photo.

What happened with my boat was a naval architect was consulted and the system engineered from t e ground up simply because the chap wanted a Williams 285 RIB and that would not fit on the bathing platform at the stern. I have been told that the first go was not successful - the crane was capable, the sun deck was able to take the load but the support for the crane was making a lot of 'creaking' noises so it was all taken away again and a new even larger diameter crane support was produced and this is it:

The crane up top is far larger than most - this is my set up:

And this is the usual set up:

Note the far more 'weedy' crane

 

The above would not have the capacity to lift a Williams RIB it is also not fully electrically controllable with a lot of manual work needed to swing the crane out and back in etc however - it weights a lot less! It is true that the boat has not been taken that far in her later life - Hull to Plymouth, Plymouth to Falmouth and more local work but she was when new taken from Hull to Gibraltar and spent a lot of time around the Med before coming back to blighty.

I suspect the fuel system was modified not to be more complected but so fuel could be taken from a variety of places let us say if for example water got into a tank but not the other, a fuel line blocked or ruptured - you can close things off, open things up and carry on sort of thing.

At the end of the day I have many other plans in the works, and it might make little sense to most if I go ahead with a huge update to her electronics and navigation gear for example, especially if I hardly ever make use of them, but I like the idea of it and how will look and it also makes the boat unique among others if I put her on the market - being the only model to have such high end equipment added. While I may spend more time on board her in Norfolk she is not destined to become a live-aboard should I make a move to Norfolk as I had planned, I would prefer a house to live in longer term so this is very much the stop gap if I did spend extended time on her but having fewer compromises to spending time on board is all the better.

 

 

[BrundallNavy]

I don’t really understand why you would have a centre tank that is lower than the main tanks if it does not supply fuel to the main engines, with the transfer cocks open it will always top the centre tank making the useable range significantly reduced.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

While I am not trying to create a house inside a boat, I am trying to remove as many compromises one might find on a boat. I am currently happy to heat with electric fan heaters and convectors but long term that not only is not very efficient it does not look very nice having a lovely cabin and then a white convector heater on the floor. Once I have the boat in Norfolk I will work to combine various methods to heat a boat (diesel based) and then get a survey undertaken to install a split commercial chiller/heating system. Such systems with variable speed compressors start slow and ramp up gradually keeping within my power limitations at the berth, it is a shame that the berth only has 16Amp supply though especially when the B.A posts have a 32Amp socket on them!

So far as the weight up top goes, this will be a 'suck it and see' situation. Most Trader 535 Sunliners have a RIB on the top and a crane to get it up and down from there, but these are small affairs with a relatively outboard motor - the crane too is tiny compared to what I have (and is on the starboard side) see example photo.

What happened with my boat was a naval architect was consulted and the system engineered from t e ground up simply because the chap wanted a Williams 285 RIB and that would not fit on the bathing platform at the stern. I have been told that the first go was not successful - the crane was capable, the sun deck was able to take the load but the support for the crane was making a lot of 'creaking' noises so it was all taken away again and a new even larger diameter crane support was produced and this is it:

The crane up top is far larger than most - this is my set up:

And this is the usual set up:

Note the far more 'weedy' crane

 

The above would not have the capacity to lift a Williams RIB it is also not fully electrically controllable with a lot of manual work needed to swing the crane out and back in etc however - it weights a lot less! It is true that the boat has not been taken that far in her later life - Hull to Plymouth, Plymouth to Falmouth and more local work but she was when new taken from Hull to Gibraltar and spent a lot of time around the Med before coming back to blighty.

I suspect the fuel system was modified not to be more complected but so fuel could be taken from a variety of places let us say if for example water got into a tank but not the other, a fuel line blocked or ruptured - you can close things off, open things up and carry on sort of thing.

At the end of the day I have many other plans in the works, and it might make little sense to most if I go ahead with a huge update to her electronics and navigation gear for example, especially if I hardly ever make use of them, but I like the idea of it and how will look and it also makes the boat unique among others if I put her on the market - being the only model to have such high end equipment added. While I may spend more time on board her in Norfolk she is not destined to become a live-aboard should I make a move to Norfolk as I had planned, I would prefer a house to live in longer term so this is very much the stop gap if I did spend extended time on her but having fewer compromises to spending time on board is all the better.

 

 

Not sure what you are paying for electricity in Brundall, but I'm paying some £0.20/Kw, (to be fair that includes standing charge, service charge, no hire of cable or meter etc.) so if you were to use the full Kw availability, at my rate that would cost: 16 amp times 240v equals 3,840 watts. (3.84 Kw).   Multiply that by 24 hours equals 92 Kw/day, that multiplied by £0.20/Hr equals  £18.40 per day. For me one socket is enough. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, brundallNavy said:

I don’t really understand why you would have a centre tank that is lower than the main tanks if it does not supply fuel to the main engines, with the transfer cocks open it will always top the centre tank making the useable range significantly reduced.

That supports my theory that the centre tank is only for ballast and can be called "reserve".

I believe you can use still  use the fuel but only in emergency by selective switching of valves etc. which means that the reserve fuel capacity that spends most of the time being ballast, can get you home..

[LondonRascal]

Quote

I would question the practice of routinely transferring fuel from one tank to another as in the event of fuel contamination you risk spreading that contamination to all your fuel, not a good idea when at sea.

Usually fuel is contaminated with water, certainly I know mine has no water in it currently, and no crud anymore and  it is why I am investing in fuel filter fillers which have integrated water separators to stop water getting into the tank at the point of fill.

It is also why I had rubber seals put on the deck fillers to prevent water getting in from rain or sea water on the decks. Things like missing seals or warped ones can easily be overlooked and and it is from this point where a lot more water gets in than condensation forming in the tanks.

Another gun in the armory to come in time will be new duplex Racor filters with a remote sensor for fuel in water which along with the pressure gauges help you keep on top of clogged filters.

Using duplex filters for each engine (you only use one two of the four filters at any one time) so if one becomes blocked you simply move a lever over, the fresh filter comes online without the engine needing to be stopped and  a new filter element is put in the 'primary' side ready to be be brought online - meaning the secondary back up element   in usual use is only used if it is needed in such a situation.  I would however probably cycle between them - 10 hours on one filter, 10 hours on the other so the elements got a fair use between them.

Everyone I have spoken to has advised the valves between tanks should be open, have not understood why originally s I found the boat they were closed and why the centre fuel tank was isolated. So I am going with their views. Also what happens for all the craft who have single engines and single fuel tanks - I think the steps I am taking and prudent and you can only go so far to investigate and prevent and if something is going to happen, then it will find a way of happening.

 

[LondonRascal]

I plan to draw from the centre tank to both engines - their returns going via port and starboard tanks. That means the fuel is being used, filtered, and moved about and 90 Gallons of it does not just sit in the centre tank isolated there for years as a bit of weight.

Other Traders that have a centre tank have a vastly larger one for extended range - my entire theory is (leave aside the RIB and crane point) that the reason this and other Traders like mine with Yanmar engines have this smaller centre tank is simply because the CAT engines weigh more and these are the more common option to have been fitted and it is likely the boat was built with those type of engines in mind.  Caterpillar had a nightmare with  their 3116 model engine that was fitted to some Traders among many other boats, and a recall was made because of soft engine blocks from engines manufactured in France. Most failed within the first 500 hours of use!

So as with many manufactures Traders had different engine choices, and several came with the Yanmars - their more efficient, have better low down torque but are a more compact lighter engine - add an additional tank and hey presto you've got your wights right. Being lower you down by drawing from this tank when your main tank fuel gauges drop to 'red' you know you've still got 90 gallons under you as backup - I would prefer that than being in a situation of 'Christ we are low on fuel' turning on the taps for the centre tank and then introducing old, stagnant fuel to the engines. Of course I base my opinions on theory than real world experience with the boat (for the time being). 

[quo vadis]

11 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Usually fuel is contaminated with water, certainly I know mine has no water in it currently, and no crud anymore and  it is why I am investing in fuel filter fillers which have integrated water separators to stop water getting into the tank at the point of fill

Good luck with filling the fuel tanks through them funnels

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Usually fuel is contaminated with water, certainly I know mine has no water in it currently, and no crud anymore and  it is why I am investing in fuel filter fillers which have integrated water separators to stop water getting into the tank at the point of fill.

It is also why I had rubber seals put on the deck fillers to prevent water getting in from rain or sea water on the decks. Things like missing seals or warped ones can easily be overlooked and and it is from this point where a lot more water gets in than condensation forming in the tanks.

Another gun in the armory to come in time will be new duplex Racor filters with a remote sensor for fuel in water which along with the pressure gauges help you keep on top of clogged filters.

Using duplex filters for each engine (you only use one two of the four filters at any one time) so if one becomes blocked you simply move a lever over, the fresh filter comes online without the engine needing to be stopped and  a new filter element is put in the 'primary' side ready to be be brought online - meaning the secondary back up element   in usual use is only used if it is needed in such a situation.  I would however probably cycle between them - 10 hours on one filter, 10 hours on the other so the elements got a fair use between them.

Everyone I have spoken to has advised the valves between tanks should be open, have not understood why originally s I found the boat they were closed and why the centre fuel tank was isolated. So I am going with their views. Also what happens for all the craft who have single engines and single fuel tanks - I think the steps I am taking and prudent and you can only go so far to investigate and prevent and if something is going to happen, then it will find a way of happening.

 

Single engine single single fuel tank quite simply game over.

Fuel/water separators have a capacity of say 50Cl in the water entrapment capsule, after that all the water is going into your engine.

That is also why duplex "change on the fly filters" are so advantageous, and given that it has all gone horridly wrong, whilst you have enough "clean filters" you can sit some poor unfortunate guy (usually designated as the Engineer) in the engine room to keep changing filters and draining the bowl. 

[LondonRascal]

1 minute ago, quo vadis said:

Good luck with filling the fuel tanks through them funnels

The one I had in mind can cope with 56 litre per minute flow rate so presumed it would be ok? The example I linked to on Amazon was not the same as I was ordering: ASAP Supplies Fuel Filler Filter

 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

The one I had in mind can cope with 56 litre per minute flow rate so presumed it would be ok? The example I linked to on Amazon was not the same as I was ordering: ASAP Supplies Fuel Filler Filter

 

I'm not trying to be a"PIA" sadly I've got the tee shirt and fortunately as a result of an experienced crew member who was obsessive about fuel containment we made the voyage. This was not in Europe but when our choices of a "safe Haven"  were: Aden. Assab or Djibouti

[diesel falcon]

38 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

The one I had in mind can cope with 56 litre per minute flow rate so presumed it would be ok? The example I linked to on Amazon was not the same as I was ordering: ASAP Supplies Fuel Filler Filter

 

Can,t see the guy on Brooms holding his nozzle over that being very happy ! ,takes him about 15 minutes to get 35 gallons in my tanks, his arm will drop off!

[KaptinKev]

Unless I missed it in a post Robin, I would love to know what the fuel fault was as you said the labour charges would not be high. Also I assume that gravity supplies to all 3 fuel tanks and what is the diameter of the connecting  pipes, as I assume most of it is in rubber?.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, KaptinKev said:

Unless I missed it in a post Robin, I would love to know what the fuel fault was as you said the labour charges would not be high. Also I assume that gravity supplies to all 3 fuel tanks and what is the diameter of the connecting  pipes, as I assume most of it is in rubber?.

Given time and open valves gravity will transfer fuel to the lowest point, as the fuel flow increases to the lowest so will the weight, given the weight increases so will the lean increase as the lean increases so does the fuel transfer until excepting buoyancy constraints  of the boat, the lower tank becomes full. 

[grendel]

I calculate that using those fillers, to fill up in less than about an hour would be a miracle. just a thought, the centre tank is sealed, does it have a vent, if not then as it fills from near the bottom, any trapped air will stay there.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, grendel said:

I calculate that using those fillers, to fill up in less than about an hour would be a miracle. just a thought, the centre tank is sealed, does it have a vent, if not then as it fills from near the bottom, any trapped air will stay there.

And it will fill till the fill pressure is the same as entrapped tank pressure. 

But, I would assume that all tanks will have an above waterline but outside hull vent, another opportunity for high sea or pressure wash water ingress.

[LondonRascal]

Quote

Unless I missed it in a post Robin, I would love to know what the fuel fault was as you said the labour charges would not be high. Also I assume that gravity supplies to all 3 fuel tanks and what is the diameter of the connecting  pipes, as I assume most of it is in rubber?.

The 'fault' with the fuel was in fact nothing. It was me being told when I bought the boat to ensure that the three tanks were isolated by the balancing pipe between them (including the feed from and to the centre fuel tank from engines etc) and I was told this had to be done because the previous owner had an issue whereby a list had developed and nobody could work out why. The boatyard engineer explained that the wind hitting the boat beam on on her berth had caused the boat to list temporarily (or lean to one side) with each gust of wind and caused fuel to transfer from one tank to the other but not return thus the list grew more an more as more fuel flowed.

I found this very hard to fathom but went along with it. I then had a chap come to clean the tanks and filter the fuel - during this he and I went around and opened up the valves to the isolated centre tank so he could filter and clean the fuel within it. However, upon opening the valves and drawing fuel from the port tank while pumping it in to the starboard the starboard simply filled up and the port emptied - he therefore closed off the valves and isolated the centre tank.

He and I agreed something must be up for the fuel not to have transferred and with one tank very full and the other two thirds full a small list had developed. The only way to correct that was to physically pump fuel from the starboard tank into the port tank. He concluded that ti was either a faulty valve or a blocked transfer pipe.

Enter a new boatyard on the case they came to look at the set up (1 1/2 inch pipe) with four valves between the port, centre and starboard fuel tanks and reckoned they could sort it with the fuel in situ. They took the inspection hatch off the centre tank and pumped fuel out with the four valves closed - the fact no fuel gushed in proved the values were good (at least in closed position) but would they allow fuel in when opened? Yes they do. So no blockage and no faulty valves after all.

So in conclusion the fault was me not opening the valves and just leaving it - it will be interesting to see when I get down there this time around just how much fuel is in what tanks - we will then be headed over to the fuel pontoon for refueling and that will show me how many litres I have lost to all this faffing about, since when Carl lifted the lids on my tanks they were brimmed - I am told now they are 4" from being full - so quite a quantity less than when this caper began. At this point I have slowly lost more fuel through people taking it away in filters, cans, and pumps than I have burnt in running the engines lol

The bill for the fuel side of things I am hoping won't be too bad since no parts were needed, but since I also paid for the generator to be serviced and it's parts, spares for the main engines, and the air-con system to be inspected and run up that will add a hefty amount to proceedings. Having seen old invoices to the previous owner from this boatyard they show hourly rates of up to £75.00 so this affair will have run into a few thousand pounds I am sure.

[LondonRascal]

50 minutes ago, grendel said:

I calculate that using those fillers, to fill up in less than about an hour would be a miracle. just a thought, the centre tank is sealed, does it have a vent, if not then as it fills from near the bottom, any trapped air will stay there.

The centre tank does indeed have a vent. It has the large diameter ( 1 1/2") 'thru pipe' connecting it to the two side tanks - It fills up from this pipe as per video - and if you see there not actually at the very bottom - more mid way up the tank sides.

Then it has a 1/2" pipe coming out the top of the tank (I presume vent) and then two smaller pipes also coming out the top (I presume fuel feed and return).

[KaptinKev]

I do have alot sympathy for Robin as many of the questions we ask are out of his arena of knowledge. I appreciate he is trying to learn but even in the boating world, there are many who will be eager to take his money through his lack of know how on how a boat works.

[grendel]

I think that by us asking the questions, and Robin answering them, he is gaining a lot of knowledge from our asking and him answering, I think by the time he has finished explaining it to the rest of us, his knowledge of his fuel system will be as good as any boat yards.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

The 'fault' with the fuel was in fact nothing. It was me being told when I bought the boat to ensure that the three tanks were isolated by the balancing pipe between them (including the feed from and to the centre fuel tank from engines etc) and I was told this had to be done because the previous owner had an issue whereby a list had developed and nobody could work out why. The boatyard engineer explained that the wind hitting the boat beam on on her berth had caused the boat to list temporarily (or lean to one side) with each gust of wind and caused fuel to transfer from one tank to the other but not return thus the list grew more an more as more fuel flowed.

I found this very hard to fathom but went along with it. I then had a chap come to clean the tanks and filter the fuel - during this he and I went around and opened up the valves to the isolated centre tank so he could filter and clean the fuel within it. However, upon opening the valves and drawing fuel from the port tank while pumping it in to the starboard the starboard simply filled up and the port emptied - he therefore closed off the valves and isolated the centre tank.

He and I agreed something must be up for the fuel not to have transferred and with one tank very full and the other two thirds full a small list had developed. The only way to correct that was to physically pump fuel from the starboard tank into the port tank. He concluded that ti was either a faulty valve or a blocked transfer pipe.

Enter a new boatyard on the case they came to look at the set up (1 1/2 inch pipe) with four valves between the port, centre and starboard fuel tanks and reckoned they could sort it with the fuel in situ. They took the inspection hatch off the centre tank and pumped fuel out with the four valves closed - the fact no fuel gushed in proved the values were good (at least in closed position) but would they allow fuel in when opened? Yes they do. So no blockage and no faulty valves after all.

So in conclusion the fault was me not opening the valves and just leaving it - it will be interesting to see when I get down there this time around just how much fuel is in what tanks - we will then be headed over to the fuel pontoon for refueling and that will show me how many litres I have lost to all this faffing about, since when Carl lifted the lids on my tanks they were brimmed - I am told now they are 4" from being full - so quite a quantity less than when this caper began. At this point I have slowly lost more fuel through people taking it away in filters, cans, and pumps than I have burnt in running the engines lol

The bill for the fuel side of things I am hoping won't be too bad since no parts were needed, but since I also paid for the generator to be serviced and it's parts, spares for the main engines, and the air-con system to be inspected and run up that will add a hefty amount to proceedings. Having seen old invoices to the previous owner from this boatyard they show hourly rates of up to £75.00 so this affair will have run into a few thousand pounds I am sure.

I go back to my original comment that the centre tank is for ballast only and can be used as the reserve when fuel gets low.

[Siddy]

If the tank/s have a 1/2" vent pipe the transfer of fuel between tank in transit surly wouldn't be too much as this would control the pressure in the tanks one has to vent and one has to replace the neg vac pressure slowing the transfer.

Refueling you would have to remove the 2nd filler cap to vent for the tanks to balance faster.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Siddy said:

If the tank/s have a 1/2" vent pipe the transfer of fuel between tank in transit surly wouldn't be too much as this would control the pressure in the tanks one has to vent and one has to replace the neg vac pressure slowing the transfer.

Refueling you would have to remove the 2nd filler cap to vent for the tanks to balance faster.

 

Sorry but how do we know the vent pipes are 1/2" and there is a second filler cap?

[Siddy]

19 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Then it has a 1/2" pipe coming out the top of the tank (I presume vent) and then two smaller pipes also coming out the top (I presume fuel feed and return).

Then I put tank/s not knowing the main tank size, I think it was on the video a 2nd filler was used, I may be wrong.

[KaptinKev]

7 minutes ago, grendel said:

I think that by us asking the questions, and Robin answering them, he is gaining a lot of knowledge from our asking and him answering, I think by the time he has finished explaining it to the rest of us, his knowledge of his fuel system will be as good as any boat yards.

But a boat yard can be as good as a garage, if you are not mechanically minded, what comes out of their mouth can be rocket science to you and money in their pocket to them.