Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care

[JennyMorgan]

Long time ago I delivered a few Moonrakers, lovely boats in their day. Great job, being paid to go boating. Never could understand owners who paid others to enjoy using their boat whilst they sat in an office! Re wet boats, nothing more uncomfortable than a planing hull in weather that is too rough for planing, give me (please) a wet trawler yacht any day of the week!

[LondonRascal]

Today (Monday 15th January) Mount Batten Boathouse were to be working onboard Independence to go through her fuel balance set up, service the generator and test the air conditioning in both cool and heat. Having heard nothing about what was going on I was therefore anxious things may not have proceeded as well as I had hoped. 

At just past 4:30pm I got a call from them with some very good news. They had isolated the fuel balance pipe - then carefully removed the top inspection cover of the centre line tank - no gushing of fuel meant the four isolation valves were working. The centre tank was then pumped down - and being the lowest point in the system the starboard side fuel valves were opened the result was fuel gushed into the centre tank - so that side was clean and clear and working as should. Having closed the starboard valves it was time to repeat with the port side and again fuel flowed freely into the centre tank.

Considering this centre tank was never touched when the fuel was polished, I was pleased to hear there was no crude, corrosion, or water present in this tank. The inspection hatch was then replaced and the fuel valves left in the open position. Next up was the sight gauges on the tanks were replaced (this can be done in situ since they have valves top and bottom to isolate) and the net result is I have fuel 4" from the top of the tanks - so this is just going to need a small top up to bring the system to a full state.

They then got on with servicing of the generator, this proved to be in excellent condition - the impeller which was changed despite laying in situ since 2009 was in a subtle condition and returned to its usual diameter upon removal, this therefore has been saved as a spare. The anode however snapped as was removed so this took some time to get out, but has come out a new one has been put in.  It was then run up under load and works well - this then meant a full check on the air condition and heating (reverse cycle) which did not throw up any error codes but as I was told is just a very inefficient and noisy way to heat the boat and should consider getting a Diesel powered boiler (or wet heat system)  to heat the domestic water and heat the boat - this I am already set on but will be something to be carried out when in Norfolk.

So more good news, more good luck in so far as no new parts have been needed and sounds as if the time taken to figure things out has not taken too long so labour rates will not have gone through the roof. 

This Thursday see's 'Team Indy' arrive to tackle the outstanding issues and put in place our check list for the sea trials which we will be undertaking for several hours over the weekend.  One hopes that nothing breaks or shows up as being in need of work, but if it does we can easily get to the yard where spares are easily had and can get on with sorting anything over the next couple of days. All this will be filmed along with the other works from cleaning to carpentry that will be going on prior to our actual departure for Norfolk in just over two weeks time.

[ExSurveyor]

18 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

This Thursday see's 'Team Indy' arrive

Have you ordered the Tee shirts. 

Sounds like good progress.

[Jbx5]

Good news Robin must be a weight off your mind.

now good luck on Thursday with the trials.

enjoy.

John

[FairTmiddlin]

17 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Have you ordered the Tee shirts. 

From the forecast full Polar seems in order

 

[LondonRascal]

Actually I was going to order some personalised High-Vis vests - orange for everyone else and a pink one for Charlie.. Seriously though it is one big weight off to know not only it works but also it is clean fuel and a clean tank.

 

[BroadAmbition]

Well that's a huge tick off the 'To Do' list - the fuel tanks and balancing system.  That was the priority item we faced tackling.  It also means that I now don't have to transport around twenty 25Ltr drums down with me either.  Having just checked the 'To Do' list - there are still 36 items to attend to, none of them are a 'Sailing Stopper' some are very minor, some items really will end up on a 'Wish List' similar to the system we run for 'B.A'  The priority one to attend to is now the sea trials, we expect to be out of the marina into clear safe water for about 6 x Hrs or so.  I'd like to get this done Saturday as the sooner we get that one sorted the better as it gives us more time to attend to any issues that may come to light.

Three sleeps to go

Griff

[Polly]

All the best for the run out to sea.

[Guest]

So exactly how does this tank system work then , the way I see it port and starboard are linked together so both drop at the same rate so as not to cause  any unbalance , both port and starboard tanks are also linked to the central tank and that feeds both engines and gen set and obviously any other diesel consuming device , the return lines from the injector spill rails would then go back to port and starboard tanks since that fuel  would be after running a while a higher temperature than the fuel in the tanks , obviously there are a certain number of valves but surely these are for maintenance and under normal operation be open .

No doubt it doesn't operate like that but as far as I can see from a limited experience of twin tanked craft would be the most simplistic and reliable way to do it as it keep the craft in trim with the exception of depending on where the main tanks are a for and aft trim shift as the tanks run down , that possibly would be picked up while running at any speed by a slight adjustment of the trim tabs but to be honest the tanks a most likely around the centre of balance so it wouldn't make any difference .

Incidentally this exact set up has been use by myself in model form with twin 10cc marine glow plug motors and completely 100% reliable 

[LondonRascal]

I think the system is pretty simple to begin and then goes on to get pretty complex once you head on from fuel storage. So yes, there are three tanks - and they are now freely linked to each other and have been told by the time I arrive on the boat they should have 'equalized' themselves. The complex part begins at what is termed the 'fuel manifold' - something I have not seen on any other Trader 535 (sorry for the appalling photo but best I have currently)

It is from here that you can manage the fuel supply. Some is pretty straight forward and marked up - and I am really none the wiser as to why All Boat Services isolated everything and explained to me on hand over that this is how it should be left to avoid a list developing as fuel is used. 

Just to cause further annoyance the fuel system layout in reality differs to the plans when the boat was built so while we have fixed one part and the centre tank is now freely connected to port and starboard tanks, its supply lines remain isolated. This tells me you could decide, for example to open them up and allow fuel from the centre tank to supply the generator, or you could have the generator run off the port tank as I think it currently does.

This is something to see how things behave in action so to speak and that can only be done when head out - as things stand I am pretty certain the port engine takes from and returns to the port tank and vice versa for the starboard engine, I think the generator runs and returns to the port tank.

Something else I learnt today the engines I have (Yanmar 6CXM GTE2'S) are pretty rare beasts in the UK but popular in Australia, New Zealand and America. They were not designed for the  leisure market but for commercial use  - usually in fast fishing trawlers and work boats. That is good because often high output engines in leisure boats only achieve their horsepower ratings by effectively pushing the engines ever further - which is why a single block might cover a wide range of power outputs. Engine manufactures love to charge for those extra horse power but in my case the GTE2 model came in one flavor - 500HP.

They do  not have a bunch of electronic engine controls to go wrong over time but parts have to be shipped in - sometimes direct from Japan, Impellers for example  cost over £100 each thus taking the usually already eye watering Yanmar parts costs to new levels. 

There is an interesting article here about them: http://www.powerequipment.com.au/yanmar-the-only-engine-to-last-the-distance/

 

[Jonathan]

Robin,

Just a thought, which I think you mentioned yourself some time ago, with the heavy crane/hoist for the rib on one side it is possible that it will cause a list.  It may be that the previous owner kept more fuel in one side to compensate for that, so allowing fuel to equalise through the centre tank might allow it to "lean" a bit!  This would explain the "must be kept closed" instructions.  If the cross-flow valves are open now then I suspect that this would be obvious next time you visit. 

Thank you for the frequent and informative updates.  I think we (NBN forum readers) are all looking forward to next weekend as much as you are!

[grendel]

59 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Robin,

Just a thought, which I think you mentioned yourself some time ago, with the heavy crane/hoist for the rib on one side it is possible that it will cause a list.  It may be that the previous owner kept more fuel in one side to compensate for that, so allowing fuel to equalise through the centre tank might allow it to "lean" a bit!  This would explain the "must be kept closed" instructions.  If the cross-flow valves are open now then I suspect that this would be obvious next time you visit. 

Thank you for the frequent and informative updates.  I think we (NBN forum readers) are all looking forward to next weekend as much as you are!

I was wondering the same thing, maybe the crane could be balanced up with an adjustment of some equipment / ballast / Robin.

balancing it out using fuel levels is a temporary solution at best, plus I would imagine that in heavy seas, although the pipe is only small diameter, it might be better to run with the link closed in case a list develops,  as once there is a list, the fuel transfer could make it worse.

[TheQ]

A note about your Air conditioning, if you are on Shore power then  a reverse cycle A/C, is a very efficient method of heating, as you will roughly get 3 times as much heat out as electrcity put in...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, grendel said:

I was wondering the same thing, maybe the crane could be balanced up with an adjustment of some equipment / ballast / Robin.

balancing it out using fuel levels is a temporary solution at best, plus I would imagine that in heavy seas, although the pipe is only small diameter, it might be better to run with the link closed in case a list develops,  as once there is a list, the fuel transfer could make it worse.

I think that the centre tank is primarily for ballast to improve stabilty and for normal operation it will be full and each wing tank provides the fuel flow and return to each of the respective engines.

[ChrisB]

19 minutes ago, TheQ said:

A note about your Air conditioning, if you are on Shore power then  a reverse cycle A/C, is a very efficient method of heating, as you will roughly get 3 times as much heat out as electrcity put in...

They were everwhere I stayed in Australia. Absolutely brilliant, being spring in the Red Centre, along the Great Ocean Road and in the Grampians it was hot in the day but the temp fell like a stone at night. Mitshubishi seemed the the install of choice.

[TheQ]

I fitted a split unit system in our mobile home, a lot cheaper to run than 3 bar electric fires ,  no water output of a mobile gas heater and a lot safer....

similar to this one

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KFR-53IW-Air-Conditioning-KFR53-System/dp/B00IOQ039U/ref=sr_1_29?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1516109510&sr=1-29&keywords=air+conditioning+split+unit

[LondonRascal]

The main purpose of this update is to share the short video that Mount Batten Boathouse sent to me showing the fre flow of fuel from the starboard and port tanks into the cetnre tank.

Having removed the centre tank inspection panel, pumping the contents down you will see the fuel flow in as each valve is opened. You will also note the very clean internal walls of the tank, no rust here - and remember this tank was never touched when I had the other tanks cleaned and fuel polished - this is also the lowest of the tanks and therefore would have acted as a sort of sump with fuel sat in here for a good while so its condition has pleased me.

Moving on to the air conditioning:

I have spoken at length here and on other Forum's about my wish to have a commercial split system to cool and heat the interior and some have said this is not workable. They have sighted the fact one would need to have the outside condenser part of the system mounted and that would look ugly, the heat sink fins on the coil would not last in a salty environment (as are Aluminum) and the refrigerant lines would be prone leaking/rupture through the constant movement of a boats hull/interior when underway. The thing is these things are cheap to get, service personnel are used to them and if they go 'tits up' easy to replace so the idea of such system still appeals, as I would not mind the unit being put on the swim platform even perhaps in a nice GRP louvered enclosure to hide it.

The system I have is huge so far as BTU cooling goes, twin compressor 25Amp power munching machine. It takes the water (the sea water) as a means to remove the waste heat, or in winter tries to work in reverse and recover heat from the water and through the wonders of refrigerant compressors you do get more out than you put in making them one of the most efficient ways of heating. My problem is that my system does not produce much viable heat once it has been through 6 matrix's and many many feet of large diameter pipe work. It is 'okay' but it is not anything like warm as one might wish.

Also when I am in Norfolk with a weedy 16Amp supply, I won't be able to run it in cooling or heating mode and my only option would be to use the Generator to produce enough current to get it going. This is why I intend using a diesel  fired boiler for heating water much like one does at home, that is then pumped through the existing closed circuit for the heated or cooled water/glycol mix. I can heat the water to a greater temperature than the chillers can working in reverse cycle mode (but through an isolation valve ensure this hot water does not pass through their heat exchanger) and thus cause my cabins to heat up better running the matrix fans in 'blow mode' only. In summer however I am still screwed with cooling being none or run generator if I want the air-con to work.

I might therefore get a split system to run in the main saloon area and aft cabin - nothing too fancy neither costly and well within the 16Amps that the shore power can supply because I am so used to air conditioning at home at work not having it would be a real compromise to me, but to others it is not much of an issue.

Moving on to the boats stability:

We will be looking into this on the weekend. I am sure the crane does indeed weigh more than the RIB and it is more outboard on the port side than the RIB is n the Starboard side. If the RIB weighs in at about 320KG and let us just presume the crane weighed 400KG you can see I have approaching (or maybe exceeding) a tonne of weight 15 odd feet above the waterline. Not the best idea for a boat but hey ho I got what I got.

It may therefore need some addition ballast in the boat - Charlie and I have talked about this - I have emailed the local boatyard asking if they have some, or where may we procure such from should it be needed and have not got much help there. Also there is very little room in the engine room to put such so I think in reality when we have filled the fuel tanks, water tank we can see if there is a list and how much - if it is very slight I would say let it be, if it is a few degrees then damn it we got to get down to getting suitable weight, and a place to securely put it since you do not want to have it just moving about where you do not want it in a heavy swell.  My idea there would be a perhaps a plywood box, sealed and painted and then bonded to the hull with GRP but that is a bridge to cross if we need to and she has been okay for 7 years without additional ballast since the crane was fitted in 2010.

Another idea just come to mind is there is some seating on the starboard side some course sand bags in the storage parts of this seating could do a lot - since also on the port side is the BBQ, sink and outside Fridge right below the crane which adds more weight over on that side.

 

 

[ChrisB]

When I needed some extra ballast in a sailing boat I used a company called Midland Lead. I am on my phone so can't do a link but they were most helpful.

[grendel]

Robin, when you were cleaning the fuel and returning it to the opposite tank, I seem to recall it did not take too many hundreds of litres to create a list, OK we can assume double the weight as if 200 litres was moved off of one side and added on the other, thats a net transfer of about 400kg in relation to the centre of gravity. so I would think you are not looking at too much ballast.

depleted uranium masses half as much again as lead, and I am sure there are a few nuclear power stations (or waste treatment plants) that have plenty to spare. 

[grendel]

you have also previously mentioned new battery banks, depending upon the weight, maybe these could be used as ballast by siting them correctly.

[LondonRascal]

If I do anything with the batteries it will be to replace them with lighter Lithium banks just to mess up the weights even more. It all rather complicated because for everything you calculate on the port side, there is something heavy on the starboard side - like the Generator. 

Considering her size she is a very twitchy boat. Empty the fresh water tank at the aft and the entire boat raises a couple of inches above the previous water line. Move about inside the boat from left to right a few times and you get quite a oscillation develop as she moves from one side to the other and it is these sort of things that some dislike about the boats. I know Traders are renowned for rolling hulls and have been told by others who have owned them the first priority would be to have fin stabilisers installed  to correct it - I cannot justify that sort of money though.

 

[Guest]

What you need to remember Robin is this " its a boat " its not a house and all singing all dancing systems don't work on boats on less than something much bigger  that would never get up to brundall , separate systems for heating and cooling is really the only way , a house has much more ability to draw  vast amounts of power from the grid boats don't even in a marina , yea sure you can use the generator but why would you want to use all that fuel , its horses for courses and always has been , sure a boat can be a very comfortable place even in the depths of winter but you need to think boat not house , I'm a firm believer in nothing is impossible but I do know regarding boats that something's just will not work and most importantly adding weight up high isn't the best idea regardless of how cool it is , it detracts from the boats performance, and causes an instability problem .

Fuel system wise its complicated for the sake of being complicated there's no reason why a very such simpler system would not work just as well as it does on many thousand's of boats , now had it onboard a unit to poilsh the fuel from time to time then I could accept its complications but it doesn't so I'm lost at to why one of the pervious owners had this done as clearly it left the factory having been built by those that know in a totally different way , given the hrs on the boat I doubt its been far with all that weight up top and lord knows what it handles like in heavy weather but I guess you might find that out soon dependent on the sea state , its all to easy to see something and think " oh iv got to have that and totally forget about the fundamentals of the fact its a boat at the end of the day .

Now I know I sound critical but given my credentials I recon I know a thing or 2 about how to fit boats out especially to be lived on , I don't know everything I accept that and I'm always willing to listen to others as one learns a lot that way , and on that note I'm off for a while on this thread .

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

What you need to remember Robin is this " its a boat " its not a house and all singing all dancing systems don't work on boats on less than something much bigger  that would never get up to brundall , separate systems for heating and cooling is really the only way , a house has much more ability to draw  vast amounts of power from the grid boats don't even in a marina , yea sure you can use the generator but why would you want to use all that fuel , its horses for courses and always has been , sure a boat can be a very comfortable place even in the depths of winter but you need to think boat not house , I'm a firm believer in nothing is impossible but I do know regarding boats that something's just will not work and most importantly adding weight up high isn't the best idea regardless of how cool it is , it detracts from the boats performance, and causes an instability problem .

Fuel system wise its complicated for the sake of being complicated there's no reason why a very such simpler system would not work just as well as it does on many thousand's of boats , now had it onboard a unit to poilsh the fuel from time to time then I could accept its complications but it doesn't so I'm lost at to why one of the pervious owners had this done as clearly it left the factory having been built by those that know in a totally different way , given the hrs on the boat I doubt its been far with all that weight up top and lord knows what it handles like in heavy weather but I guess you might find that out soon dependent on the sea state , its all to easy to see something and think " oh iv got to have that and totally forget about the fundamentals of the fact its a boat at the end of the day .

Now I know I sound critical but given my credentials I recon I know a thing or 2 about how to fit boats out especially to be lived on , I don't know everything I accept that and I'm always willing to listen to others as one learns a lot that way , and on that note I'm off for a while on this thread .

I would question the practice of routinely transferring fuel from one tank to another as in the event of fuel contamination you risk spreading that contamination to all your fuel, not a good idea when at sea. I think the plumbing complications valves, manifolds etc, have been installed so that in the event one tank is contaminated (for whatever reason) you can isolate that contaminated tank and continue to run all systems on the other tank/tanks with uncontaminated fuel.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

I would question the practice of routinely transferring fuel from one tank to another as in the event of fuel contamination you risk spreading that contamination to all your fuel, not a good idea when at sea. I think the plumbing complications valves, manifolds etc, have been installed so that in the event one tank is contaminated (for whatever reason) you can isolate that contaminated tank and continue to run all systems on the other tank/tanks with uncontaminated fuel.

Thing is fuel contamination mostly comes from fuel thats been sat in a tank be it quay side or on a boat , use it and its not an issue , + there are plenty of additives that work so there's no fear .

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

Thing is fuel contamination mostly comes from fuel thats been sat in a tank be it quay side or on a boat , use it and its not an issue , + there are plenty of additives that work so there's no fear .

Agreed, but I'm also mindful of (and have been affected by) salt water contamination in fuel caused by, for instance :

Filling; some floating barges use separate pumps from separate pumps to fill two or more tanks simultaneously to speed the delivery, one tank could be contaminated. 

Deck Fitting: some errant crew member may not have secured the filler fully causing heavy seas washed onto the decks to enter the fuel.

Fuel Cooler: a leaking fuel cooler can cause sea water to mix with fuel.