Budget

[vanessan]

Hurrah, tax on gin not increasing! 

[Bytheriver]

7 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Hurrah, tax on gin not increasing! 

Or gin palaces ?

[Poppy]

'Red' to disappear in 2yrs.  Best learn to sail

[ExSurveyor]

33 minutes ago, Poppy said:

'Red' to disappear in 2yrs.  Best learn to sail

Or go with the tide

[riverman]

It'll be very interesting to see what happens with fuel. I would imagine there will have to be a different colour dye added, I can't see another solution. If they keep it red for all then people will abuse the system and it'll be very hard to catch those who do. If they force people to use white, well, you can forget about there being any fuel in your boat, digger, dumper etc when you next go to use it. 

[marshman]

Surely all those who now use red and who continue to have that exemption, will be able to use red - but the rest including recreational boating, will have to buy white, although how long it will take to "wash" through, might remain a moot point.

This has been coming ever since they introduced the 60/40 ruling for this industry several years ago, and if thats what it means it will make only a marginal difference to me ,but perhaps more to those with bigger engines. 

Perhaps we need to see the small print though , before jumping to conclusions?

[D46]

2 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Or go with the tide

Nothing wrong with learning especially learning to sail it teaches you boating skills ie using the wind and tide etc.

 

[grendel]

8 minutes ago, marshman said:

although how long it will take to "wash" through, might remain a moot point.

I believe i saw somewhere that the tank would need to be specially cleaned to remove the dye, and if you still wanted to use red for heating it would need to be from a seperate tank.

[riverman]

I entirely agree we need to see the small print.... It wasn't so much a comment on who it will affect, more the practicality of it. Mostly the practicality of leaving large quantities of a very desirable commodity unattended for potentially months at a time. We've had red diesel stolen from our tug boats and equipment. Red, at 50p a litre, I can't imagine how much will go missing if we have to put white in. 

[grendel]

I would imagine a big problem for some with seagoing boats and large tanks, just using the fuel they already have onboard.

[D46]

6 minutes ago, marshman said:

Surely all those who now use red and who continue to have that exemption, will be able to use red - but the rest including recreational boating, will have to buy white, although how long it will take to "wash" through, might remain a moot point.

This has been coming ever since they introduced the 60/40 ruling for this industry several years ago, and if thats what it means it will make only a marginal difference to me ,but perhaps more to those with bigger engines. 

Perhaps we need to see the small print though , before jumping to conclusions?

It means only a marginal difference to me says everything ! .

What about the bigger picture in what I means to others , thousands of people in just Norfolk are involved in the boating industry so to say it hardly effects me is basically selfish .

Without trying to be too critical you obviously have fallen into the trap of the 60/40 split , the law states it's up to the purchaser of the fuel to designate the % split and that is why you are ( as are the yard ) legally required to sign a declaration everytime the tank has any fuel put onto it no matter how much .

Many boats don't have diesel heating but there's another misconception as it also discounted for the generation of electricity .

In the eyes of the law as you have to at every fill up disclose the amount going to propulsion and elsewhere , anyone not doing is breaking the law , just as yards that fill boats on 60/40 are , how do they know how that fuel will be used ? .

Lord knows how yards are Getty away with it or some yards I should say , I went for yrs at one yard without signing a thing now I have to as from a few months back , the incentive is on the person filling the tank to remain with in the law , when was anyone other than the person using the car on a road convicted of tax evasion ??? 

[rightsaidfred]

Budget extract

Red diesel

While fuel costs and were largely left alone, the Chancellor did announce that he was ending tax relief on “red” diesel for most sectors, saying its users were “some of the biggest contributors to our air quality problem”.

The current system allows some businesses who operate “off-road” vehicles (such as construction firms) to pay far less duty than on regular diesel. From 2023 this rebate will be removed for most sectors, although agriculture, horticulture, pisciculture, forestry and rail will continue to be eligible for duty relief.

Doesn't mention boats or heating so lets wait till we see the small print, plenty of time left for the hire fleets and RYA etc to lobby..

Fred

 

[rightsaidfred]

33 minutes ago, D46 said:

 

In the eyes of the law as you have to at every fill up disclose the amount going to propulsion and elsewhere , anyone not doing is breaking the law , just as yards that fill boats on 60/40 are , how do they know how that fuel will be used ? .

Lord knows how yards are Getty away with it or some yards I should say , I went for yrs at one yard without signing a thing now I have to as from a few months back , the incentive is on the person filling the tank to remain with in the law , when was anyone other than the person using the car on a road convicted of tax evasion ??? 

I understood that this was covered by an arrangement with HMRC.

Fred

[D46]

36 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I understood that this was covered by an arrangement with HMRC.

Fred

It is is the self declaration you need to make when re fuelling , the responsibility is on the person refueling to do that why else would there be self declaration forms ? 

[D46]

42 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Budget extract

Red diesel

While fuel costs and were largely left alone, the Chancellor did announce that he was ending tax relief on “red” diesel for most sectors, saying its users were “some of the biggest contributors to our air quality problem”.

The current system allows some businesses who operate “off-road” vehicles (such as construction firms) to pay far less duty than on regular diesel. From 2023 this rebate will be removed for most sectors, although agriculture, horticulture, pisciculture, forestry and rail will continue to be eligible for duty relief.

Doesn't mention boats or heating so lets wait till we see the small print, plenty of time left for the hire fleets and RYA etc to lobby..

Fred

 

While it doesn't mention boats directly I'm pretty sure they are tied up in this , as for doing this to construction which is very very important this is a serious blow .

Incidentally this includes all construction on government projects including HS2 .

More taxation to pay for that ?? I wouldn't be at all surprised .

[Smoggy]

I wouldn't start to worry about cleaning dye from tanks, it'll be long gone by the time hmrc have a budget for checking boat tanks and the cost of the enforcement will be higher than the return from the small amount not playing ball, especially when yards are selling white anyway.

Southwold have both available as do most of the east coast marinas (I think wells is just red atm) to cater for the foreign vessels, I guess they will continue with both for the fishing boats.

[D46]

2 hours ago, riverman said:

I entirely agree we need to see the small print.... It wasn't so much a comment on who it will affect, more the practicality of it. Mostly the practicality of leaving large quantities of a very desirable commodity unattended for potentially months at a time. We've had red diesel stolen from our tug boats and equipment. Red, at 50p a litre, I can't imagine how much will go missing if we have to put white in. 

Believe it or not even BA got fuel removed from a launch approximately a yr back ! 

[ExSurveyor]

Private boaters have had a considerable tax benefit for a long time, it was nice while it was available but like all good things, it comes to an end.

If it is required for heating then a separate tank will be required although that probably wouldn't be cost effective.

Tax reliefs have been cut in many areas, time to join the ranks of Landlords and business owners.

[D46]

30 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Private boater have had a considerable tax benefit for a long time, it was nice while it was available but like all good things, it comes to an end.

If it is required for heating then a separate tank will be required although that probably wouldn't be cost effective.

Tax reliefs have been cut in many areas, time to join the ranks of Landlords and business owners.

You sound like you don't care TBH , it has been fine with our own government for decades , this action is forced on the UK by the EU no one else.

Mind you it depends how much you actually use your boat , use it a lot it will cost you , don't do then you probably don't care .

That said I'm of the opinion that boater's stand together regardless of how much or little it's costing another , I guess that's another vision distroyed  .

Thing is all governments don't worry about taxing the public , so explain to me why since 2004 this has been consistently ignore by 2 party's and HMRC ? , Labour under Tony Blair vetoed this move 3 times , had it been in their interest they would have instantly taken it onboard , fact is they and successive governments and HMRC didn't implement it as all of them know it's extremely difficult to enforce and costs more than it gains in revenue to do that .

[ExSurveyor]

The extra cost to a private boater is going to be small compared to the ever increasing cost of moorings.

This year the increase is being accompanied by enhanced CCTV and better Wifi, so at least it feels like I am getting something for the extra.

As with everthing in life, it will always cost more next year.

The large mark up needed by riverside vendors means that the probable short term reduction in garage pump prices will not filter through to boaters.

Council tax, road fund licence, general insurance, everthing goes up. Next year or possibly the year after the fuel duty will rise. A packet of cigarettes is now about £10.

This is the way governments avoid raising taxes and start weaning people off things.

It will have greater impact on the hirer fleets if they lose the concession, this will be past on to the customer, but like all things, it will eventually be accepted.

Who even thinks about the surcharge on flights, they just pay it.

A couple of years ago hotels abroad were forced to charge guests a local tourist tax, a few euros a night, we all grumble, but still go abroad and pay it.

[D46]

1 hour ago, psychicsurveyor said:

The extra cost to a private boater is going to be small compared to the ever increasing cost of moorings.

This year the increase is being accompanied by enhanced CCTV and better Wifi, so at least it feels like I am getting something for the extra.

As with everthing in life, it will always cost more next year.

The large mark up needed by riverside vendors means that the probable short term reduction in garage pump prices will not filter through to boaters.

Council tax, road fund licence, general insurance, everthing goes up. Next year or possibly the year after the fuel duty will rise. A packet of cigarettes is now about £10.

This is the way governments avoid raising taxes and start weaning people off things.

It will have greater impact on the hirer fleets if they lose the concession, this will be past on to the customer, but like all things, it will eventually be accepted.

Who even thinks about the surcharge on flights, they just pay it.

A couple of years ago hotels abroad were forced to charge guests a local tourist tax, a few euros a night, we all grumble, but still go abroad and pay it.

It will be a small cost if you don't go out very often I'll accept that but those that use their boat will feel it , moorings with WiFi / CCTV etc are a personal choice as is the type/ size of car anyone drives along with how big their house is hence council tax band , smoking  , all of that is personal choice and by no means essential .

It's the same going abroad it's not essential to life .

I'm not saying you can't do it , what I m saying is if you go then don't moan about it .

What has happened today regarding fuel for boats has a impact on not just the casual boater but the whole of the Marine industry as well as tourism both of which are quite fragile and I completely fail to see how the hire boater is hit harder than the private one , sure they use diesel but only for a minimum period pee yr , like I said if you don't use your boat that much it won't make much difference , but I also said that I thought boater's were on the same page singing from the same hymn sheet and I'm all right jack didn't come in to it on any level .

You did get me laughing though regarding fuel prices Riverside being adjusted to suit market prices , never ever happened and never ever will .

[grendel]

I think that with the government plans to stop production of diesel and petrol vehicles, that fuel duty rises were inevitable, we are  just seeing the start of the process

[Smoggy]

As someone that does use their boat a lot (about 1000+ litres last year) I've never felt able to defend me getting a tax break for it, even more so if construction businesses are not allowed.

It was nice while it lasted but hey-ho all good things come to an end, my tanks will be full before it stops though.

[D46]

40 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

As someone that does use their boat a lot (about 1000+ litres last year) I've never felt able to defend me getting a tax break for it, even more so if construction businesses are not allowed.

It was nice while it lasted but hey-ho all good things come to an end, my tanks will be full before it stops though.

I don't think anyone would wish boats to be given the tax break and construction not given it .

Personally I can't understand why the government would wish to increase increase fuel duty for the construction industry , the industry is extremely important to the country's economy and as a result of increased costs has a impact on the housing market and indeed inflation as a whole .

Regarding boats this decision has a impact on tourism as well as private boat ownership , it may well be just enough to cause a struggling hire yard to consider it's options .

The marine industry as a whole will feel the effect including Marina's who may well be faced with vacant spaces due to people selling up , if a lot of folk do that then second hand prices get reduced as do brokerage commissions .

Incidentally if anyone is feeling the slightest bit guilty in not paying full duty in the none propulsion side of the fuel they are buying ,  then the can if they do choose declare it all to propulsion and pay the full duty on 100% of the fuel , that's simple to do in the self declaration form , that is cause if the yard actually produce one not many do , that said it is a legal requirement required by HMRC .

Some how I doubt many will feel guilty enough to pay full duty on fuel when they don't have to , and I would expect the tanks on those owner's boats completely full before full duty has to be paid in boat fuel .

[marshman]

Whilst I respect your views I believe the impact on the leisure sector to be almost negligible - its just possible that some of the Brundall Navy see the need to downsize to smaller boats/engines but I wouldn't put a lot of money on it!

There must be very few who see this as other than an anomaly, which was never going to continue forever - it was originally introduced I believe for the benefit of the fishing industry. Why should it continue for what is strictly a leisure sector especially as it is probably not a significant cost for many in the sector?