Epoxy Micro Lite Filler

[craigmc67]

What’s people’s thoughts on using epoxy filler on seams both on above and below the water line versus traditional methods on a wooden boat 

I have scene it used above the water line and the resulting paint job looked very good 

[Stationerystill]

My father designed many wooden boats. He always said below the water line a 50/50 mix of white lead and putty. One  goes hard under water and one goes soft so they  even each other out. I am not sure if white lead is still available though due to health and safety rules.

[BroadAmbition]

Epoxy filler on seams? - Never tried it personally but seen good results with those that have.  Thing is, woodies are flexible summer / winter plus hauling / lifting out, how flexible would epoxy filler be on the seams?

Griff

[PCL023]

Have to agree with the above. I was always told owing to the movement of carvel planks, not to use epoxy, or any other fancy sealants below the water line, (this was by MBBDC, they know a thing or two about wooden boats and some of the long term issues this has possibly caused). Corking cotton and white putty for the seams, a polyurethane based sealant is ok on the scarf joint surfaces. (No prayer books to be used, that you would never hear the end of). 

There are some products out there such as inter fill, for above the water line, however it all depends on how much you want to spend on these flexible fillers, and how often you intend to take the boat out for maintenance, along with where you intend to keep her when in the water. If it’s outside in the open you will be chasing your tail on the hull seams depending on the atmospheric conditions, especially during very hot summers and direct sun etc. a quick lift in and out to decorate can help once things are settled, (But not sure there is such a thing as a quick lift out and in with a wooden boat)😉

Cheers 

Paul

[Vaughan]

I also agree with the above. Carvel planking moves a lot, so a hard filler is not good.

Shaft tubes and skin fittings were always put in with Boss White, which I assume is a form of white lead.  Carvel seams are made waterproof with caulking cotton and then made flush with linseed putty.  It's not the putty that makes them waterproof.

The trick is, to recognise how much the planks have opened up when the boat is out of the water and not put too much putty in the seams, leaving an obvious groove, which will fill up flush when the boat takes up again.  If this means the hull leaks when launched, you can always do a "sawdust job", or smear the seams with thick water pump grease before launching.  This will wash off after a month or so.  Racing yachts will often be launched for a week to take up and then hauled out again, for the final sanding and last coat of enamel.

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, PCL023 said:

(No prayer books to be used, that you would never hear the end of). 

Yes, but I am afraid you may not have time to do scarf joints on a Saturday morning, before the boat goes out on hire again!

[PCL023]

12 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Yes, but I am afraid you may not have time to do scarf joints on a Saturday morning, before the boat goes out on hire again!

Not from what I have seen 😊, maybe ok as a very temporary repair, as is a ply patch, But not long term as a joint.

[expilot]

I raked out every above waterline plank seam on my motor-cruiser, "Broadland Swift", some twenty five years ago and filled every one of such seams with epoxy resin and filleting blend filler.  I was told (air sucking through teeth) by local boatbuilders (who shall remain nameless) that wood had to breathe, had to have room to move and that my precious boat would go off with a bang one day.  I'm still waiting for the bang and still waiting to find plank seams opening up.  And below the waterline?  Well, blow me down, as with all Broadland class boats designed by Christopher Cockerill and built by Ripplecraft of Somerleyton since 1948, in 1962, when Swift was built, the hull bottom was constructed in iroko planks - glued together!  And still is! 

Swift has been craned in and out of the water several times.  She has been slipped in and out of the water several times.  She has been stored on the hard for way too long during blisteringly hot and windy summers. In all the years I have owned her, the hull has been mistaken for grp construction, for steel and for plywood - and that by experienced boatbuilders. 

Ten years of working in a boatyard specialising in restoring and maintaining timber boats showed me that carvel boats' planks rot from the seam edges.  I had seen the above-waterline wooden planks of Yare and Bure One Designs being epoxy glued at the yard.  If it's good enough for a racing boat, I presumed it would be perfectly OK for a lumbering old eight-tonner of a motor-cruiser. 

My only caveat to all of the above is that glueing up seams with epoxy has to be done bearing in mind several vitally important factors:  the planks have to be sound, they have to be dry and the working conditions have to be right - temperature-wise and humidity-wise.  Broadland Swift's hull was last painted probably about ten years ago.  Any inspection welcome.

I have had no reason whatsoever ever to regret epoxy gluing Swift's seams.  I enjoy hull painting, but not every year!

 

[grendel]

as someone who has used epoxy for the hull and seams of my model boats i can testify to its efficiency, but - and its a big but, as expilot testifies above, the wood must be dry, it must be in very good condition, and the epoxy must be correctly applied, it should wick into the wood. apply epoxy to even slightly damp wood, and it will rot out, its not a cure for problems, if used correctly at an early enough stage, it can and does work wonders, used as a repair when there is already a problem, and it will make the problem worse.

[Vaughan]

On 17/11/2021 at 00:53, PCL023 said:

(No prayer books to be used, that you would never hear the end of). 

Perhaps worth an explanation, that a prayer book is a small rectangular wooden piece, placed behind a butt joint (between the timbers or frames) when doing plank repairs and into which, the butt ends of the planks are screwed.  It is called this for two reasons :

1/. It is about the same size as the prayer book you find in front of you in a church pew.

2/. You say a prayer when you fit it, in the hope that it might do the job!

[JanetAnne]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

You say a prayer when you fit it, in the hope that it might do the job!

You've not seen my scarph joints...

[grendel]

for those interested at the end of todays acorn to arabella episode they talk about the use of fibreglass and epoxy in wooden boats, do also note where one of the people from total boats emphasises the fact that the epoxy must wick into the timber before you apply the fibreglass to the wood, so the wood doesnt weaken the fibreglass by wicking the epoxy away from it.

 

[AndyTBoater]

So - This putty of which you speak.

Ordinary glaziers linseed oil putty? 

Or is there some (highly expensive) marine type I should be using?

 

 

[MargeandParge]

50 minutes ago, AndyTBoater said:

So - This putty of which you speak.

Ordinary glaziers linseed oil putty? 

Or is there some (highly expensive) marine type I should be using?

 

 

Any of the above putties will be expensive if you put the word marine infront of them

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[BrundallNavy]

Linseed putty is fine as long as you don’t let the boat dry out or you will need a chisel to get it off as it goes rock hard when dry. Personally I would rather sika flex used with a seam primer. 

[Vaughan]

On hire fleets, we shy away from Sikaflex and any other tubes of sealant that have "adhesive" written on them, as they are a glue as well as a sealant.  All very well until the window glass gets broken and you want to remove the frame to replace it.  With Sikaflex, you can't.  You are literally - stuck with it!

As Doug says, linseed putty is good, until it eventually dries out rock hard.  The secret with windows, is that the sealant must be supple, and stay supple.  There is a lot of movement in a GRP boat, especially if you happen to ram it into the bank!

If you look at the aluminium frames on a GRP boat, the window glass is held in by what appears to be an insert, made of hard rubber. This is actually a two part mastic product called RALLY-BONDITE which is mixed 50:50 and then applied to the frame a bit like Polyfilla, where it will then set into a hard rubber material.

If you only use one part of Rally-Bondite (either part will do) it makes an excellent sealant for the frames as it is very supple, nice and sticky, but it never goes off, as you have not mixed the two parts.  All of Crown Cruisers were built like this and so were Connoisseur, in later years.

It comes in 2.5 litre tubs and we got it from Seaglaze, or Trend Aluminium.  I believe Peachments supplied it to us as well.  If you know a local boatyard that is also a builder, they might have some they can sell you.  It is the best solution!

[AndyTBoater]

Thanks all 

I should probably clarify that I am looking for stuff for filling/sealing/ whatever between planks. 

The old filler stuff is really hard but (according to a boatbuilder of this parish) "the wrong colour"

The wood is wood coloured and the putty is grey putty coloured. The plan is to varnish the wood (above the centre rubbing strake) and so the seams need to be sort of the same colour (ish)

Rather than colour all the plugged holes and seams in with a brown Sharpie pen, I thought it best to rake it all out and re fill the seams. Raking is going well so refilling is next.

Its all going to look lovely in the end. From a distance , obviously. 

Thanks for all your replies. Todays mission is to get some brown glaziers putty (if there are no objections or other suggestions)

[BrundallNavy]

3 hours ago, AndyTBoater said:

 

Thanks for all your replies. Todays mission is to get some brown glaziers putty (if there are no objections or other suggestions)

When I did the bottom of Nipper I mixed a bit of waterproof grease with the putty it’s a bit messy but it did stop it drying out so quick. 

[sillybilly]

My advice is that the wisdom of the old shipwrights should not be tampered with some old boats have not had problems for 50 plus years

If it ain't broke don't try and fix it

There is nothing wrong with Epoxy it is great stuff used in the correct place but it certainly is not to used as sealing caulking under the waterline 

as has been said by the good advice in other replies wood expands and contracts sometimes at horrendous rates

clean seams, paint seam with waterproof primer and when dry caulk with cotton or oakum and seal with Linseed oil putty with white or red lead powder mix well -- wear gloves!

Patience - it can be a long job😏

good luck 

PS. expilot's remarks refer to a boat planked in Iroko this timber is renown for its low expansion and contraction and if seams are constructed in the  way described it will be effectively a solid slab of timber

A lot of woodies are built with types of pine on oak frames and do not have this same stability