Springer’s Retreat On The Rivers

[MargeandParge]

Just one other point you have a single helm seat and you're sat in it so must be at the helm.

If I were helming a boat with with a double seat at the helm does it mean anyone under the age of eight can't sit next to me. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[Gracie]

Carry on as you are Kate. I have sat with my dad at the helm on numerous boating holidays and done the same with my children, never had a problem. There should always be an adult in control but allowing them to 'think' they are driving the boat and giving them instruction along the way you are probably going to have a little one fall in complete love with boating and have  respect for the rivers and other river users.

I remember how it made me feel, like I was the cleverest six year old and the bees knees  I will never forget that, nor will your little visitor

Oh and well done at the bridge, I would have abandoned ship. I went on a river cruise on the Thames once and ducked in cowardly fear as we cruised under London Bridge 

Grace x

 

[kpnut]

11 minutes ago, Gracie said:

I went on a river cruise on the Thames once and ducked in cowardly fear as we cruised under London Bridge 

Wierd how we do that. As I said, clenched teeth, gripping the wheel like it was a gold bar someone was trying to prise from my hand and a sharp intake of breath. No help whatsoever apart from upping the stress levels!

[kpnut]

Thanks all.
That bit Dom refers to is what I was told and subsequently read. And there’s a further bit in the bylaw expressly saying about under that age too. 

All your different interpretations show the rule is a bit naff.

He was not allowed to touch the throttle. 
And he was perfectly understanding of all the stuff he was told as we went along - low wash near moored boats in case someone’s pouring a kettle of boiling water when the boat bounces up and down, sailing boats doing unexpected things and having priority etc etc. He even looked up river to see if anything was coming as we came out of Salhouse Broad, without being told to. We did a big circle at one point and he could see in the reversing camera how much closer the stern gets to the trees than the bow did. He was fascinated by that reversing camera. 
Learning by doing is always going to be best. But I’ll have to curb it as ‘rules is rules’. We’ll work it out. 
I learnt to drive a tractor and landrover on the South Downs pre-teen. Most of my friends passed their driving tests in the week of their 17th birthdays. 

[Vaughan]

Surely you can see a ranger's launch coming in plenty of time to re-organise your seating?

That's how I learned how to drive a boat and here's my daughter, teaching my grand-daughter to do the same!

 

[Norfolkangler]

I wouldn't worry too much. Looks like you had the situation FULLY under control.Just keep an eye out for rangers etc and ask the littleun to step down as you go past. There are much worse things going on on boats than trying to educate the next generation on how it should REALLY be. 

 

You beat me to it Vaughn 

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, dom said:

(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) (3) and (4) no person below the age of 14 years shall be at the helm of a power-driven vessel.

How old is that bye-law by the way?  I have not heard of it.  I am sure that conditions for hire boats say that minors may not drive a boat without the supervision of a responsible adult.  Whatever that is!

There has been a lot more than one occasion when I have given a trial run to a twelve year old, as his parents reckoned he was far more capable of driving the boat than they were!

[Lulu]

It’s how I learned to helm when I was a kid with dad. I was very proud when dad said I was much better than my older brother 😁

[Vaughan]

Happy memories!

In fact looking back - and this is true - I was already giving trial runs myself at the age of 12.  On auxiliary yachts.

Age is not a factor in handling a boat.  It is all practice.  It is never too early to learn and you never stop learning.  I never have!

[Bikertov]

2 hours ago, kpnut said:

Wierd how we do that. As I said, clenched teeth, gripping the wheel like it was a gold bar someone was trying to prise from my hand and a sharp intake of breath. No help whatsoever apart from upping the stress levels!

That's exactly how I am going under St.Ives bridge - a stone arch of c. 8'10" clearance

[Bikertov]

It sounds like we have all been in similar situations, as youngsters, being given the opportunity to helm a boat sat on our parents lap

And I'm sure that is how many of us have fallen in love with boating and the Broads, something that when it happens when you are young it stays with you, even if dormant for many years, until you are old enough to rekindle the romance of the Broads in your more mature years -  which is my story in a nutshell !

 

[CambridgeCabby]

You carry on Kate , it is obvious from your photo that the youngster is being well supervised and in reality you are in control of the helm .

I do similar with my grandson 

I see literally hundreds of similar helming practices throughout a season, and I must add , often far more sensibly and considerately helmed than many so called adults 

[dom]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

How old is that bye-law by the way?  I have not heard of it.

I believe it was enacted April 1995.

In general, I think the byelaws are fairly well written - whenever an unusual situation arises, there's usually something within them to ensure that action can be taken in a sensible manner. This one though seems a bit ill-conceived.

The irony is, an 8 year old at the helm of a large and heavy vessel might make a mistake and, by the time the supervisor takes action, they could have ploughed into numerous moored vessels (technically, if coasters were still around, an 8 year old could take the helm of one). Yet a 7 year old can't drive a dayboat, even when sat on an adult's lap.

Obviously, it's down to people's own discretion and common sense how to deal with the situation. There are however a few things to be mindful of:

• BA currently get attacked from every angle. Expecting rangers to use discretion may be ill-advised, particularly with a new head of safety recently recruited. A ranger might well take the view that, if caught on camera turning a blind eye, they might lose their job.
• An additional offence is committed if you allow a child under 14 to helm at speed above 6mph ground speed, which might be the case crossing Breydon
• Section 30(7) "No person shall cause or permit another person to be at the helm of a power-driven vessel" might potentially mean an owner or boatyard could also be prosecuted if you're caught
• A fine of up to £1k could be applied.

There is obviously also an argument that, if we choose to bend this rule, why can others not bend, say, the rules on speed, or navigating under the influence of drugs?

[CambridgeCabby]

If he were able to it would be interesting to get any feedback as to interpretation etc from Tom @BroadsAuthority

 

[dom]

28 minutes ago, CambridgeCabby said:

I see literally hundreds of similar helming practices throughout a season, and I must add , often far more sensibly and considerately helmed than many so called adults 

There's another issue highlighted by this. If those "so called adults" have kids below 8, would you want them helming under supervision?

The difficult with laws is that they're addressing the lowest common denominator, not those who behave in an exemplary manner.

[Troyboy]

You can't legislate for the lowest common denominator, as you have phrased it. The adults don't behave as they should so it's pointless expecting the kids to be any better. 

I would carry on with what you are doing Kate. There is nothing wrong with that at all. 

[Vaughan]

51 minutes ago, dom said:

(technically, if coasters were still around, an 8 year old could take the helm of one).

Let's not get confused here.

A coaster is a ship which, in international maritime law, must have qualified deck officers on watch.  Most of the coasters on the Yare were British or European registered and were subject to Board of Trade regulations.

Nothing whatever to do with someone's grandchild steering a Broads hire boat.

[Gracie]

2 hours ago, Bikertov said:

It sounds like we have all been in similar situations, as youngsters, being given the opportunity to helm a boat sat on our parents lap

And I'm sure that is how many of us have fallen in love with boating and the Broads, something that when it happens when you are young it stays with you, even if dormant for many years, until you are old enough to rekindle the romance of the Broads in your more mature years -  which is my story in a nutshell !

 

Absolutely spot on and what an experience for a child to helm a boat under responsible adult supervision. I will never forget the memories I have of so very much looking forward to a boating holiday and driving the boat which my dad had complete control over.

I understand the need for the rules and regs but please don't let it be seen as bending those rules and regs. As so many of us have, I was raised to respect rivers, boats and other river users by being introduced to it all at a very young age

By allowing a child the opportunity to helm a boat properly, they are the responsible river users of the future

Grace x

 

[dom]

36 minutes ago, Troyboy said:

You can't legislate for the lowest common denominator, as you have phrased it.

But that's exactly what all law does.

An F1 driver could drive safely on a motorway at ridiculous speeds. They're still subjected to the same speed limits as everyone else. A lot of people can handle substantial amounts of alcohol, but they're still subjected to the same drink drive limits as everyone else. Just because your grandchild is sensible and well behaved, doesn't mean the rules should be written accordingly. There are some pretty horrid and monstrous kids around - rules obviously need to be able to curb their behaviour.

I'm not saying that the byelaw is correct - far from it, I think it's joyless and draconian. I was also helming solo below 14 (although possibly pre-dating the byelaw). All I'm trying to do is highlight the rules so people aren't inadvertently breaking them without knowledge or due consideration.

I'd also suggest openly advocating that Kate continues without giving the point at least some thought is slightly irresponsible. If she happened to get stopped and fined this afternoon, are you going to pay the fine?

6 minutes ago, Gracie said:

By allowing a child the opportunity to helm a boat properly, they are the responsible river users of the future

Absolutely. Unfortunately, the rules by which we all operate, in order to protect us and the waterways say this can only start at the age of 8. We're all free to break the law and face the consequences as we see fit - but, ultimately, if you find the byelaw objectionable, it'd probably be better to ask RYA, NSBA, etc to lobby to have it revised.

[Norfolkangler]

I can imagine that all  this must be getting a little concerning for you KPNUT. Surely common-sense must prevail and you can rest assured you have done nothing wrong as it was YOU in charge of the situation.

If you were to be seen by a ranger or similar I would like to think that he would base his judgement on the situation. The boat is at the correct speed, in the correct position on the river etc. That would mean  you are in control of the situation by virtue of being at the helm and ready to correct at a split second if need be anything untoward. 

 

[Gracie]

In all my years of boating I have never seen it as breaking the law. We've also passed Rangers with a little one on my lap, all they have done when we have waved is wave back. I'm gobsmacked and sorry to Kate for the thread drift and how she must feel allowing her little visitor to helm

Crikey, will there ever be any fun left in boating

Grace x

[Vaughan]

19 minutes ago, dom said:

I'd also suggest openly advocating that Kate continues without giving the point at least some thought is slightly irresponsible. If she happened to get stopped and fined this afternoon, are you going to pay the fine?

Come off it, old chap. Isn't this getting overly officious?

If you know all about this new bye-law, perhaps you can tell us how many people, since 1995, have actually been prosecuted by the BA for teaching their grandchildren how to drive a boat?

Have you never read "Coot Club"?

[Mouldy]

Let’s make an excuse for the BA to employ even more rangers in the interests of maintaining safety and banging another 10% or more on the tolls to fund.  Not content with overstayers on their moorings, people fishing during the closed season (although technically an EA function), going around marinas to check that the moored craft are tolled, cutting grass, manning the weed cutting craft and countless other tasks, they now have to watch for small children helming a boat under supervision of an adult.

16 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

If you know all about this new bye-law, perhaps you can tell us how many people, since 1995, have actually been prosecuted by the BA for teaching their grandchildren how to drive a boat?

Exactly!  Do we really need to make a mountain out of a molehill.  Laws are broken by all of us every day of the year in many aspects of our lives . . . . and if anyone says they never break the speed limit when driving a car, I won’t believe them!

[dom]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Come off it, old chap. Isn't this getting overly officious?

Possibly. Unfortunately, certain events in my past make me someone who's not necessarily risk averse - but very keen to ensure people know the risks they're taking, or the rules they're breaking.

I do also struggle to reconcile how and when people think it's acceptable to bend the rules. If it's OK to bend the rules on children because it's disagreeable, is it OK to break the ones on speed if you've got a train to catch? If you want to buy a boat, but it's 47ft long, can you bend the rules and use it on the Ant? Do we really need to buy insurance when it's so expensive? Where does the line stop?

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

If you know all about this new bye-law, perhaps you can tell us how many people, since 1995, have actually been prosecuted by the BA for teaching their grandchildren how to drive a boat?

29 years old (assuming it wasn't already in existence) isn't exactly new (https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/180631/Navigation_Byelaws_1995-1.pdf), and it's entirely possible it's never been used. If you really wanted to know, you could make an FOI request. Obviously, past inactivity is no guarantee it won't be used though.

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Have you never read "Coot Club"?

Several times, the last a few weeks ago. When they made the film, one of my friend's mothers actually tried to get several of us from Horning in as extras, but without success. Sadly, she's no longer with us, but the crew did well to get her to take no for an answer!

I presume the question relates to bending rules with the Margoletta. If so, I think there's a fundamental difference between bending the rules to prevent wanton damage to nature, and bending them because they're inconvenient or disagreeable.

Unfortunately, as often seems to be the case with discussions like this, I think people are also missing the line between my playing devil's advocate and my actual views. I think the byelaw is stupid and wants revision. Whether people choose to comply with it is up to them. I don't however think it's particularly well advised to openly recommend breaking it, particularly when someone has invited BA to the thread.

 

[MargeandParge]

Should we let Kate have her thread back 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge