Dont Drink And Navigate

[Hylander]

Mods,   remove if not allowed please?       Good job the BA dont charge people like happened here.

 

 

[Smoggy]

In the same circumstances I'm sure they would, I believe the sentence was suspended. 

 

[Smoggy]

https://www.islandecho.co.uk/suspended-sentence-for-boat-owner-after-injuring-friends-in-west-wight-cliff-crash/

[Hylander]

Goodness me, £20,000 is a lot of money as well.       We often see boats beached.

 

[Smoggy]

40 minutes ago, Hylander said:

£20,000 is a lot of money as well. 

Wait till his friend sues him for damages for life changing injuries.

[Meantime]

54 minutes ago, Hylander said:

Goodness me, £20,000 is a lot of money as well.       We often see boats beached.

 

To a lot of people it is, but to the owner it's a mere slap on the wrist. To offload his responsibility for the vessel he sold it for £1. It is still stuck on the rocks and is proving very difficult to recover. The court should have made him responsible for the full cost of recovery.

As Smoggy indicated the court did say that he is still liable for a further compensation claim which the court said was better judged by a civil court.

It's interesting because the case has quite a few similarities to the one in Oulton Broad where a drunk helm crashed into a wooden boat moored on a mud weight. 

[floydraser]

He should be banned from boat ownership for life and have any qualifications for navigation taken off him.

 

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, floydraser said:

He should be banned from boat ownership for life and have any qualifications for navigation taken off him.

 

To be fair I would also question his right to hold a license to drive a car. Even the guests on board the boat have said they would not have got into a car with him, given the amount he had been drinking, which does lead to the obvious question, why get on a boat with him?

[Vaughan]

Gosh, we do get rather pious on this forum sometimes, don't we?

"Butter wouldn't melt" and all that . . 

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

It's interesting because the case has quite a few similarities to the one in Oulton Broad where a drunk helm crashed into a wooden boat moored on a mud weight. 

Oh, please, let's not drag that one up out of the archives.  We "picked the bones clean" out of that case several years ago.

[Meantime]

4 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Gosh, we do get rather pious on this forum sometimes, don't we?

"Butter wouldn't melt" and all that . . 

Oh, please, let's not drag that one up out of the archives.  We "picked the bones clean" out of that case several years ago.

I was just pointing out the similarities. Excess speed, drunk helm and navigating at night. Even the sentences are very similar. Nine month suspended sentence, 120 hours unpaid work and £15,000 fine.

It should serve as a warning to all.

[dom]

The law really needs tightening around alcohol and helming a private vessel. The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 sets some fairly tight limits on blood alcohol levels for professional masters and seamen. There ought to be equivalent legislation in place to cover leisure boats - at least in coastal/offshore settings. Having the odd beer is one thing, but the fact he set off at 20kts 90 degrees from the correct bearing suggests he was well out of it.

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

To offload his responsibility for the vessel he sold it for £1. It is still stuck on the rocks and is proving very difficult to recover. The court should have made him responsible for the full cost of recovery.

That was my initial thought, but I suspect there's no realistic way to do it whilst the boat is still there and belonging to someone else. You'd have to revert or undo the sale, which would be a minefield and likely to set all sorts of undesirable precedents.

[Smoggy]

24 minutes ago, Meantime said:

why get on a boat with him?

I'm sure there's been times when I wouldn't have got onto a boat with me but luckily I was too drunk to know better so did anyway.

Inland and river speed is a different thing entirely to high speed and sea while drunk.

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Inland and river speed is a different thing entirely to high speed and sea while drunk.

But the case I'm not supposed to mention for some reason!!!! Did happen inland on a Broad.

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, Meantime said:

It should serve as a warning to all.

I stand duly chastised in the face of your clamouring from the pulpit.

7 minutes ago, Meantime said:

But the case I'm not supposed to mention for some reason!!!! Did happen inland on a Broad.

So how long ago was this and how often has it happened since?  I simply asked that we should not dis-interr it after all these years, after it was systematically dissected in yet another trial by forum, at the time.

[MauriceMynah]

As you all know, I am but one small step away from total abstinence,  yet even I can see that if the Broads Authority fails to destroy the broads as a holiday destination,  bringing in tighter rules for "drinking and helming " will do the job for them.

[Smoggy]

I'm sure the bylaws already cover it but without a set level.

[dom]

20 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

As you all know, I am but one small step away from total abstinence,  yet even I can see that if the Broads Authority fails to destroy the broads as a holiday destination,  bringing in tighter rules for "drinking and helming " will do the job for them.

Personally, I'd never drink before helming a boat of any significant size, mostly for fear of harming others. The thought of an inexperienced hirer being in charge of a boat whilst over the drink drive limit puts the fear of god into me. Is it really necessary to drink and helm? Can people not take turns to drink and helm?

The driving limit is 35mcg. In commercial marine, the limit is now 25mcg, presumably as the risk of injury is perceived to be higher with a boat than with a road vehicle.

 

 

[Broads01]

12 minutes ago, dom said:

The driving limit is 35mcg. In commercial marine, the limit is now 25mcg, presumably as the risk of injury is perceived to be higher with a boat than with a road vehicle.

The driving limit is too high in my view. 

[floydraser]

Now don't shoot the messenger but I was over at the boat last Thursday and got talking to one of my new neighbours at BGM. He told me he wasn't new to the Broads but he was trying the south for the first time. When I asked why he said firmly, "Too many drunks!" Just his opinion of course but he was referring to mainly day boats and stag/hen parties.

[dom]

8 minutes ago, Broads01 said:

The driving limit is too high in my view. 

I think the trouble is, if you go too low, everyone drinking the night before will be over the limit the following morning (which is a concern in commercial scenarios, as well as aviation). The body can also produce alcohol during carbohydrate metabolism. If you're not careful, the limit will start catching people with naturally high endogenous alcohol levels who've not touched a drop.

The aviation limit is 20mcg, which tends to mean pilots avoid drinking the entire day before flying. I don't think our society would accept people taking a day off driving after having a couple of beers.

 

[Vaughan]

46 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

I'm sure the bylaws already cover it but without a set level.

I think you will find (where's Paladin when we need him?) that you can't be "done" for drinking and driving on the Broads.  You can, however, be done for "dangerous navigation" and it has happened in the past.

Perhaps I am over-reacting myself, but I confess I find it rather two-faced that we can all make jokes and have amusing repartee between certain members, on several threads, about Prosecco, the size of wine glasses, etc., until someone innocently makes a link to what must surely be considered a one-off incident somewhere totally un-related to cruising the Broads. 

Now, sure enough, and from the same sources, we are to be castigated about the perils of the Demon Drink.

 

 

[Meantime]

12 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I think you will find (where's Paladin when we need him?) that you can't be "done" for drinking and driving on the Broads.  You can, however, be done for "dangerous navigation" and it has happened in the past.

Perhaps I am over-reacting myself, but I confess I find it rather two-faced that we can all make jokes and have amusing repartee between certain members, on several threads, about Prosecco, the size of wine glasses, etc., until someone innocently makes a link to what must surely be considered a one-off incident somewhere totally un-related to cruising the Broads. 

Now, sure enough, and from the same sources, we are to be castigated about the perils of the Demon Drink.

 

 

I think you're just baiting now Vaughan. So in the words of the Dragons.  I'm out of this discussion. 

[dom]

33 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I think you will find (where's Paladin when we need him?) that you can't be "done" for drinking and driving on the Broads.  You can, however, be done for "dangerous navigation" and it has happened in the past.

S.83 of the Navigation Bylaws 1995 states:

"A person shall not navigate a vessel whilst under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to be incapable of taking proper control of the vessel."

The maximum penalty would be £1000. The only question mark is around the definition of "incapable of taking proper control". I suspect, if you caused death or major injury, a court would use either the prescribed limit for driving (35mcg) or commercial boating (25mcg) as the measure.

The law also has the means to deal with most things. If you caused a death whilst drunk, you could well get charged with gross negligence manslaughter, which has a maximum sentence up to life imprisonment.

Back when I worked in a yard, we used to see 1-2 deaths most years on the Broads and invariably alcohol played a part in most. For that reason, I'm strongly of the opinion that having a few drinks is fine, but the person doing the helming ought to stop at one, and needs to take responsibility for making sure everyone else stays safe. If you want to get drunk, go do it somewhere safer on shore.

[Gracie]

Well if anyone is baiting then I have been hooked

We joke about Prosecco and the size of wine glasses because that's all it is, a bit of banter and fun between forum friends. I don't see it as being two faced at all

I enjoy a glass of wine while I'm helming on a summers afternoon. I have never been drunk in charge of a boat preferring to moor up for the evening and then maybe a couple of glasses. That makes my holiday and loads of others I am sure

Once again, reports of people crashing boats because of being drunk at the helm harms it for those of us who helm responsibly. 

Unfortunately, as with most things, bad behaviour is so much more news worthy than the good x

 

[MauriceMynah]

"Back when I worked in a yard, we used to see 1-2 deaths most years on the Broads and invariably alcohol played a part in most."

 

I do not for one second dispute that, but I wonder how many of the 20 to 40 of those over a period of 20 years, were drunk WHILST helming.