Water Pump Faulty, Help Please.

[floydraser]

I'm currently on board trying to fix rainwater leaks so I didn't need the pump to go south just now. Filled up when I got here this morning and the pump was fine all day until I just went to fill the kettle.... 

It filled fine but the pump made a strange noise, quieter than normal and sounding more like a diesel engine than the pump. And running constantly after I closed the tap.  I switched off the power to it and then back on again. Well it usually works with computers???  But I noticed the lights dim when I switch it on so it remains off. Blocked?

Pic below was taken just now, where do I start? I never fitted it, this was how I got it and it's never been any trouble. I fitted the pressure vessel just to the right, a while ago.

[floydraser]

Everyday's a school day isn't it? I always wonder if I'm asking a daft question or not just before I post but this one wasn't so daft, just misleading. I went into the bedroom where the lights are old school 12v and they came on lower brightness than usual. This prompted me to look at the mains circuit breakers where I found the one marked "chargers" had tripped out. I've had the fridge on all day...

All better now thank goodness; I thought I was going shopping for a minute. At least I now know what it sounds like when the pump is under powered. Misleading because apart from the bedroom, the lights are all LED which hardly dim.

[annv]

Hi Floyd perhaps a volt meter wired to domestic battery's and fitted at the dash would be a good addition to the boat. John

[Regulo]

What is that thing to the right? Looks like a delay module of some sort. What does it do? 

[floydraser]

21 hours ago, Regulo said:

What is that thing to the right? Looks like a delay module of some sort. What does it do? 

I have absolutely no idea. 

My guess would be the same as yours and as Vaughan has liked your post I reckon we're both rather close! 

Here's a pic zoomed in from the one above. The scale seems to be 10 - 180s and set at around 100??

[floydraser]

22 hours ago, annv said:

Hi Floyd perhaps a volt meter wired to domestic battery's and fitted at the dash would be a good addition to the boat. John

Like these?

I think the problem must be that my logic is all mechanical. Actually, next time I'm over maybe I'll try switching the chargers off to see the effect on these. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. 

[Bikertov]

2 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Like these?

I think the problem must be that my logic is all mechanical. Actually, next time I'm over maybe I'll try switching the chargers off to see the effect on these. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. 

Those are ammeters, that measure current - either drawn from the battery as a "-" negative reading, or put into the batteries, (ie charging), as a "+" positive reading

What would be useful as @annv suggested is a voltmeter, to show the charge state of the batteries. This would show a "nominal" 12V, going up to around 14V or more when charging, and down to 11V or less when discharged/flat

[Regulo]

So, if it's an off delay unit, it will keep the pump running after the pressure switch turns off? That doesn't seem logical, Captain. Perhaps we should beam down Scotty for a look! 

[annv]

Hi Floyd these are amp meters and will show the charge rate or discharge rate of current flow of electricity from/to battery's, a volt meter will show how much power you have left in the battery's, a volt meter will show more information than a amp meter,And if i might add a pressure vessel inserted in water pipe from pump will work better than the electrical devise you have there and won't go wrong/pack up without warning. John

[floydraser]

4 minutes ago, annv said:

Hi Floyd these are amp meters and will show the charge rate or discharge rate of current flow of electricity from/to battery's, a volt meter will show how much power you have left in the battery's, a volt meter will show more information than a amp meter,And if i might add a pressure vessel inserted in water pipe from pump will work better than the electrical devise you have there and won't go wrong/pack up without warning. John

Thanks again John. I'll have a word with my electrical man in due course. I'm sure there's a panel available showing battery condition and with switches for the accessories.

I did have terrible problems with the water pump when I bought the boat and thanks to this forum I fitted a pressure vessel, just to the right in the original pic above. So maybe the delay thing doesn't actually work or is superceded? I wouldn't know. It ain't broke so I won't touch it. 

[Vaughan]

13 hours ago, floydraser said:

My guess would be the same as yours and as Vaughan has liked your post I reckon we're both rather close! 

I admit I was keeping out of this one . . . .         

It is difficult to give an opinion based on one photo, especially as I have never seen a gadget like that on a boat before.  I would guess it has been installed a while ago, before a new water pump was fitted.  I also shudder to think what all those wires are for, bolted into the floor, right under where water might well leak from the pipe connection to the water pump.  Presumably one cluster is positive and the other negative, though most of them seem to be coloured brown.

Your water pump has its own pressure switch, which is the small black box on the end of it, but it appears to have only one wire connected, so presumably has been bypassed, in favour of the "Dalek" fitted alongside it.

Basically, positive current (red) should come from a pump on/off switch somewhere, to the pressure switch.  Then from the pressure switch (still red) to the pump.  From the pump (black) will be the negative return to wherever it is connected, on its way back to the batteries.  That is all you need.

With plastic or rubber water piping this may be enough to give you good running but a pressure vessel in the pipework will assist in controlling the cut in and cut off pressure.  How to do this, is discussed on a couple of threads in the technical section.

[Vaughan]

13 hours ago, Bikertov said:

13 hours ago, floydraser said:

Like these?

I think the problem must be that my logic is all mechanical. Actually, next time I'm over maybe I'll try switching the chargers off to see the effect on these. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. 

Expand  

Those are ammeters, that measure current - either drawn from the battery as a "-" negative reading, or put into the batteries, (ie charging), as a "+" positive reading

What would be useful as @annv suggested is a voltmeter, to show the charge state of the batteries. This would show a "nominal" 12V, going up to around 14V or more when charging, and down to 11V or less when discharged/flat

The big difference about ammeters ( I seem to remember you have three of them) is that current has to actually pass through them on its way to somewhere else.  A voltmeter can be connected across the positive and negative, wherever you like in the circuit and it will show battery voltage.

Up until the early 70s almost all boats on the Broads had ammeters - and so did cars - but it means that all the wiring, from the alternator(s) to the batteries, has to come up to the dashboard, through the ammeters and back down again.  This will probably include the main feed to the domestics and is why, traditionally, the domestic fuses are also found under the dashboard, where nowadays, they don't necessarily need to be.  All this means a much more solid - and expensive - wiring loom arrangement.

In your case, you can fit voltmeters by simply connecting them to one of the terminals of each ammeter (positive), with the negative going to wherever there is a common negative return under the dashboard.

Don't try to disconnect the ammeters and do away with them, or you will end up having to re-wire the whole charging circuit!

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

but it means that all the wiring, from the alternator(s) to the batteries, has to come up to the dashboard, through the ammeters and back down again.

By the way, you will probably find that the current feed to the ignition key for starting the engine, is coming from the "battery side" terminal of the ammeter.  This is done so that the ammeter doesn't go crazy when you pre-heat the engine!

Nowadays, the feed to the key would be taken from the "battery side" terminal of the starter solenoid or from the "engine side" terminal of the master switch.

[Vaughan]

I have just had a "light bulb" come on in my brain!  

It must be the approach of the dawn!

Knowing when your boat was built, she was almost certainly fitted with a "Godwin" water pump, which nearly all hire boats had in those days.  That would also explain the lovely old brass non return valve in the pipe from the water tank in your photo.

The Godwin was a cast iron pressure vessel of about a gallon capacity, with a Stuart Turner water pump mounted on top.  Inside the vessel was what amounted to the inner tube from a wheelbarrow, which could be blown up with a bicycle pump.  It was also fitted with its own "Square D" pressure switch.

The only problem with these excellent and sturdy units, was that the Stuart Turner is a turbine pump, and does not have a diaphragm or an impeller.  So if the batteries were too low, the pump could not build up enough pressure to cut off on the switch and would just keep running until it killed the batteries.

So this timer was probably fitted as a safety device, to stop the pump after a number of seconds and protect the batteries.  How one was supposed to have a shower in 80 seconds, is another matter!

One way or another you can almost certainly do away with it, and re-connect the pressure switch on the water pump itself.

[Smoggy]

I'd almost certainly do away with it and wire the pump direct through it's own pressure switch, as Vaughan says an accumulator vessel after the pump would be a good addition if it doesn't already have one.

I was guessing at a non pressure switched pump in previous use using a timer to give a pressure as I've never heard of the unit Vaughan mentions but I've not been around boats anywhere near as long as he has.

[Vaughan]

I have just realised that the old pump I was referring to was not a Godwin.

Godwin was the 2 stroke motor pump that all the yards used for pumping out sunken boats!

I am trying to rack my brains to remember the name of the fresh water pump.  I know that Mark @ExSurveyor had one on his Topliner as I remember him posting a photo of it on a thread somewhere.

Perhaps he remembers the name of it?

[ExSurveyor]

You have a better memory than me Vaughan.

It was on a Siesta 20 I was looking at.

[floydraser]

Gordon Bennett! This thread has just come alive hasn't it?

Thanks all, just waiting for a bus on my way to play trains, I'll respond properly later.

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, ExSurveyor said:

You have a better memory than me Vaughan.

So it was a Godwin!  That means the motor pump I was talking about was an ALCON.

You can see what good units they were, for those days.  At the back is the Square D pressure switch and on the outlet it had a pressure gauge, which was great for getting the settings right.  You could also unscrew the pressure gauge, to prime the pump when de-winterising in the spring.  You can see the 4 bolts on the pump mounting plate, which gave easy access to the bladder (inner tube) inside the pressure vessel.

Unfortunately they were soon superceded by the Jabsco/PAR pumps, which have impellers or flapper valves, which mean they will still build up pressure (and cut off) when the battery voltage is low.

Those were the days!

 

[mjt]

9 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Your water pump has its own pressure switch, which is the small black box on the end of it, but it appears to have only one wire connected, so presumably has been bypassed, in favour of the "Dalek" fitted alongside it

I think if you look more closely it's likely the pressure switch has not been bypassed. The second red wire is hidden under the switch and pump body and reappears further back where it looks as though it's going to the motor.

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, mjt said:

I think if you look more closely it's likely the pressure switch has not been bypassed.

In which case that's fine but it still makes the "Dalek" superfluous and if by chance, it is still functioning after all these years it will only interfere in the normal running of the pump.

We nowadays have several cases (there was one on the forum a short while ago) where a more modern water pump with its own switch, has been fitted to replace an older type (such as Stuart Turner)  but the  separate pressure switch in the piping has been left in place, still wired into the circuit.

A water system can only have one pressure switch.  If you have two they will just interfere with each other.

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

If you have two they will just interfere with each other.

Lucky Pumps !!!

Reading through this thread I think I'll just use bottled water, I understand that.

[floydraser]

This thread has turned out to be another fascinating lesson in history. Some time ago on my restoration thread we learned about the original bilge pump which was triggered by a pressure switch activated by air pressure in a tube, so I'm quite ready to accept the water system could be of similar vintage technology wise.

I googled "repos off delay timer" and watched a video by a gent with a strong Asian accent, explaining the difference between an off delay timer and an on delay timer. It seems the little box at the top of the Dalek is the timer and the bit underneath is a contactor. So it works the same as my electric shower if I understood it properly: when I switch it off, the water runs on for a bit to cool the element? 

Here's a new one: https://www.wentvaleelectricalltd.co.uk/telemecanique-la3dr4-10a-front-mount-10-180s-repos-off-delay-contact-block-used-6267-p.asp

As for removing it... is there a bomb disposal expert on the forum? Which wire do I cut first? The brown one, yes that's right, definitely the brown one.... No, just a minute, it could the red. No, no, definitely the brown, I think....

Bang! 

[floydraser]

As for the accumulator, I have just been trawling through my old videos and found this from July 2019. Crikey, I've had this boat for nearly 6 years! 

 

 

[marshman]

Thats nothing - after 20 years I really did know mine!!!