Tolls hike ? What for next year

[Boaters]

In today's EDP about the hike in tolls this year and what should be done ?

Ghttp://www.edp24.co.uk/news/should_the_broads_authority_freeze_its_tolls_for_boat_owners_1_2913273

[mbird]

Whatever they do, one thing for certain is it won't get any cheaper!

[C.Ricko]

as the hire boats disappear the private toll will have to go up.

it would be nice to see the BA listen to advice (on any subject) as there are lots of

miffed and angry people who are affected by their actions.

I see three options.

we all pay more to keep wastage levels increasing at a similar level.

Private owners tolls gradually increased to decrease the multiplier.

BA work out how to cut costs like the rest of us.

[MikeO]

Clive's option 3 is far to revolutionary and will never catch on!

[Guest]

....Private owners tolls gradually increased to decrease the multiplier......

 

 

Sorry Clive, I know I'm biased, being a (fairly poor) private owner, and not running a hire business,  but I feel that the average hire craft gets far more usage out of the Navigation than two and a half times the average private craft.

 

The overwhelming majority of the 10,000 plus private craft rarely move from their private Marina berths, so they already subsidise hire craft, which have to be out on the rivers far more to be commercially viable.

[C.Ricko]

Sorry Clive, I know I'm biased, being a (fairly poor) private owner, and not running a hire business,  but I feel that the average hire craft gets far more usage out of the Navigation than two and a half times the average private craft.

 

The overwhelming majority of the 10,000 plus private craft rarely move from their private Marina berths, so they already subsidise hire craft, which have to be out on the rivers far more to be commercially viable.

fair enough, (although I don't agree) this is a hard one for the private owner to swallow but there is an imbalance.

the other waterways have a 2:1 multiplier, ours was introduced so the BA could manage and maintain 24hr moorings for hire craft, these days most of them have been lost and the remainder are equally used by the private owners.

The problem with hire and private owners not agreeing is that it is exactly what BA want as if we all got on then a united front would be harder to ignore. luckily despite our differences common ground is being found and we are working together well.

[littlesprite]

Dammed if you do dammed if you don't, there is far to much personal interest involved for any solution to keep all parties happy.

 

My own preferred option for what it's worth,  leave the tolls as they are and just go for increases in-line with inflation.

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Clive,

I have to agree that all river craftusers must get on and have a united front, one way or another the end user be it a private or hirer user is getting short changed with regards to facilities on the Broads.

The basic of these is having somewhere to moor, with water deep enough for this task rather than the hit and miss attitude we are all currently having to endure, less and less wild moorings and current moorings closed during the season.

Regards

Alan

[Guest]

I understand there are currently around 1000 hire boats and 10,000 private boats paying tolls on the Broads.

 

So, keeping it in simple rounded figures, because of the @ 2.5 multiplier, hire boats are paying the same as 2500 private boats, so private owners still appear to be paying 80% of the BA's total navigation levy, despite the multiplier.

[BuffaloBill]

 

 

 BA could manage and maintain 24hr moorings for hire craft, these days most of them have been lost and the remainder are equally used by the private owners.

 

That may be so Clive, but there are yards who will not allow private

boats to moor in their yards so we have to use whatever moorings

are available to us!

The loss of the wild moorings is an issue for us as that's the way to

appreciate what the Broads has to offer.

[C.Ricko]

That may be so Clive, but there are yards who will not allow private

boats to moor in their yards so we have to use whatever moorings

are available to us!

The loss of the wild moorings is an issue for us as that's the way to

appreciate what the Broads has to offer.

ah yes this is true, I make my hire yards moorings free for private cruisers. could you let me have directions to your mooring so that my customers can make use of your free space when you are not in it?  

 

Strowager,

I think there are about 800 hireboats, there may be some dayboats in your figure???? it is an argument I am trying not to get into but the hire boats are much bigger on average than the private boats, also some don't have engines so pay less still

there is a figure out there somewhere showing the contribution from private and hire I think the hire figure is £1.2m and private about £1.4m but I could be way out, I should really check but I am sure someone will

[MikeO]

^{There is a danger that we get into a heated argument between owners and hirers which will achieve nothing.}

^{The reality is that the broads are there for us all to enjoy and we need BA to manage it efficiently and in a cost effective manner.}

^{Unfortunately, BA is 'broken' and needs a complete revamp to make it effective in todays world.}

^{From an owners point of view I don't have a problem with the level of the toll if the authority is managing properly, in fact it's probably the lowest part of our boating costs.}

^{What we really need is a united voice and an authotity which is answerable to all it's users.}

[Guest]

^{There is a danger that we get into a heated argument between owners and hirers which will achieve nothing.....}

 

No, not between owners and Hirers Mike, but between private owners and hire fleet operators.

 

Each feeling they sibsidise the other !  

 

Opinions about the BA are perhaps even more divisive on forums.......

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Mike,

I totally agree, even on the level of the current fee which as you say is the least of our worries and is about the price most of us have to pay for a boat lift.

Regards

Alan

[littlesprite]

People always think the other guy is getting a better deal, it might be tax rates, wages, or in this case boat tolls but how can you get a system that everyone considers fair.

 

I moor at Clive's place and pay £155 for 3 feet of boat I don't own, whilst the 38 foot boat opposite has the benefit of the extra 3 feet of turning room when he comes and goes yet pays nothing towards that 3 feet. Is that fair! yes because I knew that it was a 30foot minimum when I first took the mooring on, equally I knew the system for toll charges when I first got a boat and was happy to except it, why should that change now and increase my toll to suit others who knew the system they were in but now want it changed.

[C.Ricko]

no argument here, I know I am right!

I don't think anyone would have issues if there was the perception of value for money, the problem is that whenever there is a surplus it gets blown so that tolls have to rise. just think where our tolls would be without the expense of our own fleet of dredgers and a dockyard, I am not against the idea just the cost per m3 of mud dredged I am only guessing is more than what a contractor would be.....

[littlesprite]

Now your talking about "VFM" where is the toll money spent and are there any checks in place to stop waste, I think this is where the whole boating community is united and what they should be looking at. The trouble is that the BA can be very clever in getting NSBA or any other group involved in discussing toll changes as it just causes division among different groups by deflecting people away from the real issue, not what is charged, but how and where it is spent.

[Oddfellow]

Clive makes some very valid points.

 

The problem is wastage. The cost of the new building at the shipyard was supposed to be more than off-set by the closure and sale/lease of the Ludham Fieldbase. Except, nobody wants the Ludham Fieldbase so the BA continues to pay for both.

 

The BA is winning accolates for the Salhouse Broad work, but what's the cost of that and was it really necessary at a time when finances were already terribly stretched?

 

The BA's planning team is probably one of the biggest problems standing in the way of infrastructure investment on the Broads.

 

As for the cost of hire vs private; I don't buy this argument that a hire boat is used more than a private one. Sure, it may be the case, but there is nothing stopping a private owner from using their craft every weekend or every day, or even living on it. Perhaps a move towards pay per use should be considered then.

 

The BA is probably the biggest threat to the hire industry on the Broads today. As Clive says, fewer hire boats means higher and higher charges for private boats.

[Oddfellow]

During a repaint on Song of Freedom recently, I removed some old tolls plaques. In 2008, it cost £653 for river tolls on this boat. In 2013, it cost £851. That's a increase of over 30% in six seasons.

 

I can't see how the BA can talk about Sustainable Tourism in one breath and then increase our charges by over 30% in six seasons. That's not sustainable for me and, if I can't afford it, it won't be sustainable for them in the medium term. Not without putting tolls up elsewhere anyway.

[Guest]

........ Perhaps a move towards pay per use should be considered then. 

 

If the toll was indeed based on "pay per use", then the average hire boat multiplier factor would effectively be about x20 !!

[mbird]

Another thing to consider is that actually, our tolls are quite low in comparison to other waterways. For example, our boat costs around £450 for a Broads toll. If we were based on the Thames, this would be nearly £800 (eg £17.42 per sq.m. compared to roughly £10 on the Broads)

[Guest]

Another thing to consider is that actually, our tolls are quite low in comparison to other waterways. For example, our boat costs around £450 for a Broads toll. If we were based on the Thames, this would be nearly £800 (eg £17.42 per sq.m. compared to roughly £10 on the Broads)

 

Absolutely !

 

I used to keep a cruiser on the Ouse, and the Environment Agency Anglian Region tolls were about twice as much. The total cruising area was larger than the Broads, but due to the locks, the actual regular usage was much shorter than on the Broads.

 

God help us all if the EA were ever to take over direct management from the BA !  

[senator]

Maybe the BA could start charging day tickets for anglers? or visiting charges for Birdwatchers? access charges for Hikers? I'm sure the list could go on and on.

 

The reality is the Broads are managed for the use of all, this includes putting in facilities such as hides for the twitchers, posh pegs for the anglers, paths for the walkers, visitor centers for tourists etc, all of these then need to be maintained and since the BA have decided to raid the toll pot for uses other than direct cost of Navigation, which they have no matter how they dress it up, boaters are paying for everyone not just the boats.

 

Broads tolls do offer good value when placed against other navigation authorities but isn't that because the cost of maintaining the infrastructure is much lower? No locks, well one but it costs £11 each way to go through it, no facilities, other than at yacht stations and there is a charge to use these. 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Maybe the BA could start charging day tickets for anglers? or visiting charges for Birdwatchers? access charges for Hikers? I'm sure the list could go on and on.

 

The reality is the Broads are managed for the use of all, this includes putting in facilities such as hides for the twitchers, posh pegs for the anglers, paths for the walkers, visitor centers for tourists etc, all of these then need to be maintained and since the BA have decided to raid the toll pot for uses other than direct cost of Navigation, which they have no matter how they dress it up, boaters are paying for everyone not just the boats.

 

Broads tolls do offer good value when placed against other navigation authorities but isn't that because the cost of maintaining the infrastructure is much lower? No locks, well one but it costs £11 each way to go through it, no facilities, other than at yacht stations and there is a charge to use these.

 

 

Hi Ian, you`ve forgotten a few points.  What about funding the BA hierachy to go on "first class" trips to "Global conferences" on "wetland management", and "sustainable tourism", seeing how things are done overseas, and flying buisness class there and back, and staying in 5* hotels.

 

Whatever happens, it`ll never be perfect for everyone, so the most important question (to me anyway) is "are we getting value for money", to which the short answer is NO. As Ian points out above, there are many broads users that get the benefits of toll payers money, without having to pay a brass farthing, but boats are another issue. Walkers, anglers, bird watchers, cyclists etc etc, all get a lot of use out of the broads for nothing because it`s impossible to police, whereas (often seen as rich) boatowners, be they private or fleet owners, are an easy target.

 

Another point is that nearly all fleet operators run a "seasonal" schedule, whereas many private boats stay on the rivers and are still used during the late autumn, winter, and early spring months, whereas most hire boats are in there bases.for winter maintainance.

 

As a hirer who is looking to buy into one of the syndicate boats in the very near future, Karen and i will be looking to buy our own boat outright in about 10 years when i retire, so will have the time to use it for as long as we want to at any one visit, to make it a viable option.Whatever we end up doing, i`d like to think that the BA are giving us value for money. At the moment, that`s NOT the case.

 

 

Regards to all .......................... Neil.

[Oddfellow]

There's often an argument put forward that to get the best people, you need to pay the best salaries.

 

Do we think we've got the best people in the BA?

 

Do they need such luxuires as business class travel when they're cutting back at the sharp end?

 

The wastage is scandalous.