Best for the Broads?

[LadyPatricia]

Sorry guys 'n' gals, another possibly silly question.

We've been looking at several ads for secondhand boats. Our budget isn't huge but we are only looking for a 22 - 25ft max boat.

Our question is this: on the ads we've seen the boats seem to have either a displacement hull or a planing hull. Which is best for the rivers and what difference will we notice between them while at the helm and cruising?

Apologies if it is a stupid question but not sure if it's something we should consider in the purchase.

Steve & Deb

[Hockham Admiral]

Steve and Deb, Hi

 

For river use (where there are speed limits) a displacement boat will usually be best as they are more stable at slow speeds.

 

A displacement boat will almost certainly be easier to helm at these low speeds.

 

I'll leave it to the "techies" if you  want more detailed info!

[LadyPatricia]

Hi John

Thanks for the quick response. It would appear it is something we should take in to account when buying then.

I've just noticed you are located in Brundall. Is petrol readily available on the Southern Broads or is diesel the best way to go?

Thanks

Steve

[Hockham Admiral]

Diesel is far more common, apart from Brooms I don't think there's anywhere else you can buy it 'Darn Sarf'!

 

Others will disagree but bye and bye diesel is a safer bet for pleasure boats on the Broads. YES, a safely constructed and well maintained petrol engine is safe, but petrol, or its fumes, are inherently more combustible!

[CooWee]

Hi Steve and Deb,

 

At Broom Boats petrol is available, but elsewhere it is not so readily available I believe.  There are people on this forum that run petrol engined boats I am sure they will be along to tell you at some point.

[riyadhcrew]

Hi Steve,

 

As proved by Robin (London Rascal), a displacement hull is much easier to handle at Broads speeds and does not get blown around as much as a planing hull. As for fuel, I have read many posts where people have to carry petrol to their boats in jerry cans and that some petrol stations limit the "take away" amount of petrol to 10 litres.

[LadyPatricia]

Thank you all for the help.

It would appear a diesel powered boat with a displacement hull is the way to go

Onward with the boat hunting

Steve

[MauriceMynah]

Certainly that was far from a "silly question".

 

I would say that the diesel displacement boat is your best option, however don't totally discount petrol completely for two reasons.

Firstly they tend to be a little cheaper to buy but perhaps more importantly there is the "Freeman" syndrome.

 

For some reason unknown to me, the earlier Freemans (or should that be "Freemen") tended to be fitted with petrol engines. This was one of the few drawbacks to a boat that was built and finished to the very highest quality, and is exactly in the size range you are talking about.

[Guest]

Sorry guys 'n' gals, another possibly silly question.

We've been looking at several ads for secondhand boats. Our budget isn't huge but we are only looking for a 22 - 25ft max boat.

Our question is this: on the ads we've seen the boats seem to have either a displacement hull or a planing hull. Which is best for the rivers and what difference will we notice between them while at the helm and cruising?

Apologies if it is a stupid question but not sure if it's something we should consider in the purchase.

Steve & Deb

 

Not a silly question at all Steve and Deb.

 

Even though the terms "displacement and planing" are bandied about a lot, they are still misunderstood by some.

 

If you never want to go faster than "hull speed", (about 7 to 8 mph for that size of boat), then a displacement hull will always be better.  They "cut" through the water, rather than try to climb up on to the surface and skim along faster. This makes them more fuel efficient.

 

The problem though, is that there a much fewer displacement hull cruisers in the 22ft to 25ft range than planing hulls. Ex-hire boats are almost always displacement, the smallest being Hampton Safaris and Sheerlines, but the majority are 30ft plus. Freemans also had true displacement hulls.

 

If you rule out planing hulls, you will reduce your options by maybe 90%.

 

A 22ft to 25ft max cruiser will almost inevitably have a planing or semi-planing hull, but it's not as bad as some people seem to think.

 

I've owned several of each type of hull, and currently have a planing hull 23ft cruiser.

 

It uses half a gallon of fuel per hour at 6mph, creates hardly any wash at that speed, and steers just as nicely as my previous 26ft displacement hull.

 

It didn't steer very well at all when I bought it, but I added a proprietary rudder attachment to the stern drive, which cured the problem completely.

 

Here's a photo of my wash at 5mph on a quiet misty morning. It doesn't even reach the banks.

[Hockham Admiral]

Certainly that was far from a "silly question".

 

I would say that the diesel displacement boat is your best option, however don't totally discount petrol completely for two reasons.

Firstly they tend to be a little cheaper to buy but perhaps more importantly there is the "Freeman" syndrome.

 

For some reason unknown to me, the earlier Freemans (or should that be "Freemen") tended to be fitted with petrol engines. This was one of the few drawbacks to a boat that was built and finished to the very highest quality, and is exactly in the size range you are talking about.

 

Spot on, John.

 

(And Strow's post while I'm typing this!)

 

But don't think it's an easy (or cheap) option, Steve and Deb, to replace a petrol engine with a diesel one!

[Guest]

......For some reason unknown to me, the earlier Freemans (or should that be "Freemen") tended to be fitted with petrol engines.....

 

I believe that was because back in the 1960's, when the earliest petrol ones were made, there were few viable small marine diesels available, just the BMC 1.5, which would have been quite a heavy bulky lump in a 23ft hull.

 

If Nannis, Betas, Yanmars and Kubotas had been around then, I'm sure they'd have been a more popular option. (When marine diesel was a third of the price of petrol !)

[JennyMorgan]

It's often forgotten that many of us with outboards use petrol so petrol boats are not that uncommon on the Broads. There is some debate about the environmental friendliness of diesel but in practical terms diesel rules on The Broads.

[Guest]

.....But don't think it's an easy (or cheap) option, Steve and Deb, to replace a petrol engine with a diesel one!).

 

Absolutely right, it would hardly ever be a viable option from an investment point of view, rarely adding the cost of replacement to the subsequent value of the boat.

[Viking23]

For riverside petrol, you also have the Waveny River Centre.

For our Viking 23, with outboard, we tend to buy from car petrol stations that are near to the river, much cheaper and fresher than riverside petrol, we then carry it, but some garages have a policy to limit petrol containers to 2x5 ltr plastic, or 2 x10 litre metal containers.

At any single transaction..... Say no more.

Also petrol stored for long periods tends to loose it's potency, but there are fuel additives that can be added, and these work really well.

If we had an inboard, although a petrol would most likely be quieter with less vibration, we would go with diesel for ease of filling up, and less risk of potential leaks and fire etc.

Best regards,

Richard

[JennyMorgan]

My local Tesco garage used to be quite diligent in regard to petrol containers but it has finally sunk in that boats with outboards sometimes have 25 litre tanks and either the garage's policy has changed or they now turn a realistic blind eye.

[Guest]

...... but some garages have a policy to limit petrol containers to 2x5 ltr plastic, or 2 x10 litre metal containers.....

....Also petrol stored for long periods tends to loose it's potency, but there are fuel additives that can be added, and these work really well.....

If we had an inboard, although a petrol would most likely be quieter with less vibration, we would go with diesel for ease of filling up, and less risk of potential leaks and fire etc.......

 

Yes indeed, the new laws on buying petrol in portable containers has caused much confusion, with many filling stations interpreting it incorrectly.

 

Almost all new outboard fuel tanks are 25 litres and made from plastic, so filling them at road side filling stations is often going to be refused, as the law is none too clear on the subject.

 

As you say though, a maximum of two ten litre metal jerricans is definitely permitted, and is a safe and convenient way of carrying nearly 5 gallons of petrol.  For my inboard petrol boat, I use two of these, with a detachable spout. They fill and pour very easily with built in breather pipes to avoid bubbling and surging.

 

Ten litres of petrol runs my 205 horsepower engine for about 5 hours at 6 mph, a range of 30 miles, ample for most daily cruises, to replenish that amount used in the 40 gallon tank. (which gives a range of 500 miles when full.

 

I quite agree about the additives too, I always use them, and have never had problems from stale petrol.

 

Yes, petrol is much more volatile than diesel, because the vapour is explosive, but the BSS rules on outboard breathers and flame traps etc.. reduce the risk. There doesn't seem to be any significant number of boat fires attributed to petrol, more seem to be caused by gas.

 

Inboard petrol engines certainly are usually much quieter and vibration free compared to most diesels, and can be run all day at tickover speeds with none of the bore glazing that diesels would suffer from.

 

Ten years ago, the choice of diesel or petrol boat engines was a no-brainer, with marine diesel costing a third of the price of petrol. Nowadays though, it's a lot less clearcut, with the fuel costing almost the same, many diesel engines becoming so complex electronically, and "bio-diesel" being foisted on us.

[Mowjo]

Steve! don't rush into buying a boat, there's nothing wrong with Petrol ones, they run quieter than diesels, it's just inconvenient having to carry jerry cans, I've owned three now, give me a half inch spanner a packet of fag papers and I can usually fix them, but like any petrol engines you can tend to get a few more problems with them, usually on the ignition side and usually something silly like an HT lead or the coil, but you have to be methodic in tracing the fault and if your not into doing it yourself, you can knock up quite a big bill just tracing the faults if a yard does it,
 
Most diesel engines are pretty bullet proof even the old ones, the three of them I've owned have been no real problem, so far only the Seamaster 813 needed anything doing and that was down to a dirty fuel filter, the downside is they are noisier than petrol, now the good news! if you keep your eyes open you can now find boats that did have petrol engines in, have had diesel replacements like this one,, http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/advert/freeman-23-032-freeman-23-norfolk-broads/41905895   that's just an example as I don't know what your budget is, but if you don't mind doing a bit of work or if your lucky you can find them cheaper, just don't fall into that gotta have a boat trap, lots of us have been there, take your time and you'll find a good one, as I said before it's coming to the end of the season and lots of boats will be coming up for sale now,,,,

 

Frank,,,

[JennyMorgan]

The time to buy is just before the marina's mooring fee lands on the door mat!

[LadyPatricia]

Thank you all again for some sound advice.

Frank, that is actually one of the boats we want to look at while in norfolk in a couple of weeks time. The same marina also has a 24ft Norman diesel which with a little TLC could be a nice boat. It's a little cheaper but then the budget will cover bits we want to add. NOTHING will be bought without a survey

Steve

[Mowjo]

Steve! I have dealt with that Marina before and found them pretty good, now I have an Idea of your budget I'll keep my eyes open for you, I'm always on the boat sites looking at what's out there, I don't know if your interested in a boat a little bigger but if you are take a look at this one, it was one we were going to look at but the Seamaster came up first, it was still up for sale on Sunday because he rang us for us to go and see it,http://www.elysianboats.co.uk/#/boats-for-sale/4566262532

[LadyPatricia]

Thanks Mowjo

That was the type of boat we originally wanted but when we took insurance, tolls and moorings in to account (our budget has to cover the first year) those extra 2-5 foot make quit a difference to the costs.

Now we have done a lot more homework I may take another look at costings for that size boat.

That does seem a good price for an elysian 27, most we have seen have been 8.5k and up so a look at the costings again could be worth while. We don't want to go any more than 10k all in for our 1st boat. Go on call me tight

Please do drop us a message if you see any more in a similar price bracket.

Steve

[Mowjo]

Nah! not tight Steve, 8.5k can still buy you a lot of boat, and when you cost it out that extra 3ft it only makes a couple of hundred £ different, and don't forget your the man with the money so you can make offers, cash is King, ours was up for £8950 but Jude offered £8k and it was accepted, I  reckon that if you look at a 24 then see the difference that extra 3ft will make you'll end up with a 27, I'm lucky Jude's good at haggling and has always managed to knock the price down anything from 1k to 2.5k the worst that can happen if you make a low offer is they turn you down, if you really want it you can up it a bit until you both arrive at a fair price,,, as the Meercat says! Simples,,,,

 

Frank,,,,, 

[Matt]

Worth pointing out Petrol at Brooms is about £1.75 a litre.....

[Guest]

For me the magic figure for length is 23 feet.

 

Up to that size, most insurance companies don't require an out of the water survey every five years. Quite a saving when you consider that costs a minimum of £500 with the lift out.

 

The only insurance company that I'm aware of that doesn't insist above that length is  Edward William, but I prefer to stick with a British Insurers.

 

 

(...and I get  my petrol in cans from Tesco at about £1.25 a litre with collected "points" )

[Mowjo]

Have to agree Strow! there are some cracking Freeman 23's out there for sale, I love them! once you see the interior of a good Freeman it's love at first sight and the beauty is a lot are original gel-coat, I don't think I know of any that have been on hire fleets, and most Freeman owners tend to look after them, if Steve is looking for a smaller boat you can't go far wrong with the 23, the only downside is most have Porta Potty's and no hot water, but there are some that have them! you just have to look for them, personally I don't care if they are petrol or diesel, they are Ideal for two people but on Dragonfly we did manage six once, four adults and two kids, three in the front bunk two in the middle and me in the cockpit,  as you like 23ft Strow do I take it your a Freeman man?? I found other owners a bit precious with their Freemans and love to keep everything original, a couple in our marina nearly had a fit when I changed all my instruments for modern ones, but I did sell them for £200 even though most of them didn't work, seems there's a premium for old Smiths Instruments,

 

I know a lot of people are wary of Edward William but I've been with them for years, had a couple of claims and they paid out without question, and as you point out they don't need a survey, I certainly have no problem using them,,

 

Frank,,,,,