Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 For those who have never seen this nasty stuff its lucky for you that I took some photos of the stuff ( not lucky for me BTW ) , the filter that's contaminated is the preflter from the tank and the main filter is totally clean , the reason for doing a filter change is I was suffering from unstable revs at low speeds , now after the filter change everything is spot on and purring away , there's another cause if this problem and that's an air leak but this case it was most defiantly fuel flow , the diesel in the container came from the water trap on the pre filter and has no contamination at all or indeed any water , therefore don't trust that as a sign of no contamination . Yes its a while since I did a change nearly 2 yrs normally I'm up to speed on this sort of thing but iv obviously slipped up this time , marine 16 or soltron will get shut of the problem so that defiantly happening . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regulo Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Euurgh! Thanks for posting, Rick. I've never seen the bug in the flesh, so wondered what the nasty stuff actually looked like. Now I know, I don't want it. Don't want my tea either really!! Where do you fuel? Any idea how you "caught" It? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Would you recommend using Soltron (or similar) every time you fuel up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grendel Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 was it just in the filter or is it in the tank too, if just in the filter it may just have been trapped water in the filter caused it to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 25 minutes ago, Regulo said: Euurgh! Thanks for posting, Rick. I've never seen the bug in the flesh, so wondered what the nasty stuff actually looked like. Now I know, I don't want it. Don't want my tea either really!! Where do you fuel? Any idea how you "caught" It? Usually its brooms but it could have come from anywhere really , I recon its in the tank because last time was about the same , not enough to stop the engine but enough to make it behave oddly . Yep its nasty stuff n this time its getting an additive to sort it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, Ray said: Would you recommend using Soltron (or similar) every time you fuel up? Possibly , now Griff's the one who use's it as far as I know but from memory if you have in the tank you do an increased " killer " dose to begin with , marine 16 or soltron will get it sorted but Griff is most knowledgeable on the subject I believe . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Thank you, I'm thinking it may be a good idea as a preventive measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, grendel said: was it just in the filter or is it in the tank too, if just in the filter it may just have been trapped water in the filter caused it to grow. Defiantly in the tank , could have been trapped water but there's none in the water trap and only thank goodness is the pre filter affected the one nearest the injection pump and injectors was fine , incidentally there is a bit of a brown stuff in the main filter in the pics that's actually glue from manufacturing not bug , bug is slimy n horrible kill the bug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Ray said: Thank you, I'm thinking it may be a good idea as a preventive measure. Defiantly would be I recon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 This looks to me simply like paraffin wax which forms in the pipes and filter if the diesel has frozen in the winter. Used to be common in the days before they refined diesel to withstand lower temperatures. This is the traditional reason why hire fleets change the oil in the autumn, but don't change the fuel filters until the spring. Otherwise, you might have to change them twice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lastdraft Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Thanks for posting , never seen it before, don’t want it either. I add Soltron every time I fill up. I think unlikely to have come from suppliers ? I was told it was filtered several times by retailer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonlad1985 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 So it's actually a living organism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Londonlad1985 said: So it's actually a living organism? As far as I know it is . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 19 minutes ago, Lastdraft said: Thanks for posting , never seen it before, don’t want it either. I add Soltron every time I fill up. I think unlikely to have come from suppliers ? I was told it was filtered several times by retailer. Yep I doubt its come from brooms to be honest I recon it's been breeding in the tank from last time , really there's been no change of usage over the yrs and I go through a lot of fuel , wasn't present in 2014 , was in 2016, and again now , n yes I need to do a change more often as that equates to roughly 900 - 1000 hrs between change's and that's too long , though an additive will keep it in check on doubt . Its not a bad attack given the horror pics on the internet but its bad enough and I'm extremely happy that it didn't get as far as the main filter so well done MANN filter you did your job . Right now who has a filter on their diesel heater ? Might be a good idea given that they are just as sensitive to this stuff and pick up from the source ie the tank and don't usually get filtered before the heater/ boiler . just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonlad1985 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 25 minutes ago, Ricardo said: As far as I know it is . Yes I've just been googling. Apparently there are 3 types of microbe?! I'm not particularly boaty and i didn't even know such a thing existed until recently. Every day is a school day. Thanks for the pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 That doesn't look black enough to me for a proper bug infestation, more waxy as Vaughan says, I've had filters clogged solid with black sludge before so definately seen it in the flesh. Eberspacher heaters have a gauze filter on the inlet side of the pump behind the hose fitting, I think webastos have the same. The bug in question generally lives at the interface of water and diesel extracting nutrients from the diesel and oxygen from the water, if you have metal fuel tanks there's a good chance of condensation build up in the tank, the sludge is often the dead bugs as the living bugs tend to form mats in the tank. Marine 16 is good stuff, give it a strong shock dose to kill it all off and a smaller dose when filling to keep it clear, a £12 bottle should give a preventative dose for 2000 litres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rightsaidfred Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 If it is the bug then I have always understood condensation is the biggest problem and the easy solution is to keep the tank topped up. Fred 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 37 minutes ago, Smoggy said: That doesn't look black enough to me for a proper bug infestation, more waxy as Vaughan says, I've had filters clogged solid with black sludge before so definately seen it in the flesh. Eberspacher heaters have a gauze filter on the inlet side of the pump behind the hose fitting, I think webastos have the same. The bug in question generally lives at the interface of water and diesel extracting nutrients from the diesel and oxygen from the water, if you have metal fuel tanks there's a good chance of condensation build up in the tank, the sludge is often the dead bugs as the living bugs tend to form mats in the tank. Marine 16 is good stuff, give it a strong shock dose to kill it all off and a smaller dose when filling to keep it clear, a £12 bottle should give a preventative dose for 2000 litres. Diesel bug can and often is brown and black it depends on how much and advanced the attack is , yes we know about the inlet filter on diesel heaters and how tiny the are and easily clogged , what you need to remember here is I live onboard hence move often and as stated do around 450-500 hrs a yr much much more than most people and my tank is constantly turning over fuel and mostly full , there's not much chance its waxing as I has happened when we have had mild weather , my guess and it is a guess is its been a low grade fuel that's got in there , and from where I don't know , gas oil is not as much refined as diesel and causes big problems as I found out in my early day on the canal system where gas oil was most common . I firmly believe that this is because I didn't treat the tank last time I got it and nothing more than that and I am certainly not pointing the finger at any yard iv filled up at at as its impossible to prove . Most boats used on a leisure type usage don't refill every week and condensation in fuel tanks can and does happen in summer , nor do they turn over the same amount of fuel as I do , mine generally getting refilled when around half full . Obviously I need to treat this but if its wax and not diesel bug the treatment won't most likely work and I'm defiantly not convinced it isn't the bug as over the yrs iv sort second opinions on various boats this has been found on and all came up with the same conclusion and we are talking about diesel mechanics here not a guy in the pub . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExSurveyor Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 hours ago, rightsaidfred said: If it is the bug then I have always understood condensation is the biggest problem and the easy solution is to keep the tank topped up. Fred I did read a good tip in a boating magazine a few years ago. Put a balloon over the vent in the winter, it will expand if needed but will avoid moisture ingress. Just remember to add it to the sign on the helm for seacocks, heaters and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 As there is nothing much else on the "box" tonight, let's look at this in more detail! When you go to the pump in the local garage, you will see that the diesel is marked as "minus 15 degrees" or maybe minus 18. This is because they have refined it, in order to stop it freezing at normal winter temperatures. But on your boat you are using red diesel, which has not had this refinement. When diesel freezes, it breaks down into a certain amount of paraffin wax, which remains in suspension when the diesel thaws again. This will happily run through the injector pump and the injectors, since a diesel engine will run on paraffin, anyway. This wax, however, is a denser, slimy substance, a bit like vaseline, which will clog up the fine fuel filters which are necessary to keep diesel clean. It will therefore obstruct the fuel flow. Next point is that your fuel tank, on an older boat, will be made of mild steel. If it is not full, in cold weather, the empty part will attract condensation which will run down to the bottom of the tank and, when also exposed to air, will cause rust, which will also drop to the bottom of the tank. So you will start to get dirty, rusty water coming through the line, especially if you have been over Breydon in a strong wind. That is what the decanter, and the fuel filter, are for. It is pretty well impossible for the fuel tank to freeze, as its volume will not allow this, at least in our latitudes, so it will be the pipes themselves, which have frozen. If you think you have this wax in the tank itself, then it must have got there from a contaminated source ashore. Perhaps an above ground installation, with exposed pipework, and which is not used very often, especially in winter? Final point therefore : Are you aware that on a Perkins or BMC engine with a "DPA" rotary injector pump, there is also a filter in the pump itself? Trace the first stage pressure line from the lift pump to the back of the injector pump, take off the compression pipe fitting and then undo the larger nut below it. This will expose a small gauze filter, which may well be clogged with paraffin wax and may be the cause of your problem. Don't forget to change the copper washer when you replace it. I remain to be convinced about diesel bug since, in all my years in the hire boat business, I have never seen it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, Vaughan said: As there is nothing much else on the "box" tonight, let's look at this in more detail! When you go to the pump in the local garage, you will see that the diesel is marked as "minus 15 degrees" or maybe minus 18. This is because they have refined it, in order to stop it freezing at normal winter temperatures. But on your boat you are using red diesel, which has not had this refinement. When diesel freezes, it breaks down into a certain amount of paraffin wax, which remains in suspension when the diesel thaws again. This will happily run through the injector pump and the injectors, since a diesel engine will run on paraffin, anyway. This wax, however, is a denser, slimy substance, a bit like vaseline, which will clog up the fine fuel filters which are necessary to keep diesel clean. It will therefore obstruct the fuel flow. Next point is that your fuel tank, on an older boat, will be made of mild steel. If it is not full, in cold weather, the empty part will attract condensation which will run down to the bottom of the tank and, when also exposed to air, will cause rust, which will also drop to the bottom of the tank. So you will start to get dirty, rusty water coming through the line, especially if you have been over Breydon in a strong wind. That is what the decanter, and the fuel filter, are for. It is pretty well impossible for the fuel tank to freeze, as its volume will not allow this, at least in our latitudes, so it will be the pipes themselves, which have frozen. If you think you have this wax in the tank itself, then it must have got there from a contaminated source ashore. Perhaps an above ground installation, with exposed pipework, and which is not used very often, especially in winter? Final point therefore : Are you aware that on a Perkins or BMC engine with a "DPA" rotary injector pump, there is also a filter in the pump itself? Trace the first stage pressure line from the lift pump to the back of the injector pump, take off the compression pipe fitting and then undo the larger nut below it. This will expose a small gauze filter, which may well be clogged with paraffin wax and may be the cause of your problem. Don't forget to change the copper washer when you replace it. I remain to be convinced about diesel bug since, in all my years in the hire boat business, I have never seen it. Yep the inlet feed filter in the dpa pump is clean don't that bit and the lift pump strainer too , tank is S/S not mild steel there not the best idea .now this never happened when it was really cold back in 2012 but then I got all my fuel from Boulters at that point and I think ( but I can check ) that they use an additive in the fuel , I do know good child's do , but seriously I fill up all over really so could pinpoint a yard , what ever it is it didn't get far but did cause an issue and it is 2 yrs since I did a filter change . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Ricardo said: and it is 2 yrs since I did a filter change . Considering you say that you do more than 500 hours a year and also considering that hire fleets will change their fuel filters twice in a season, that may be part of the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonRascal Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 On Independence I got some Hydra Fuel Plus Biocide: https://www.hydra-fueladditives.com/fuel-biocide-treatment.html I have shock treated the tanks but have another litre on order for treating when topping up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Vaughan said: Considering you say that you do more than 500 hours a year and also considering that hire fleets will change their fuel filters twice in a season, that may be part of the problem? Agreed it is essentially a maintenance issue n trust me I didn't think it was that long to be honest , now iv checked and Boulters fuel has soltron added to it . Given the price I can get filters for these days be a good idea to do both every say 250 hrs + it only took 30 mins from start to finish including that lovely job bleeding the system . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExSurveyor Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I have used marine 16 in Norfolk and soltron in kent. The Calypso in Kent has a very old Perkins and GRP moulded tank. I had a bit of fuel trouble after moving her down by road. The boat engineer there used a oil remover pump via the filler to suck all the crap out of the bottom of the tank, 43 years of accumulated crud. Shock does of soltron and extra at each fill up. Because of the limited river length I use very little fuel and that is from the local petrol station. Fingers crossed no issues in 7 years. The Norfolk boat has a fairly recent re engine and newish stainless tank. I use Brooms or the local Shell station. Again shock dose of Marine 16 and extra at fill ups. Fingers crossed no problem in 6 years. The answer is Soltron and Marine 16 both work or I have been very lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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