How Much Mph Do Boats Need

[RealWindmill]

MODS. !  Help !  They.re ganging up on me again. !

Words in response to my post like fatuous or using the SAD button to ridicule my post must be getting pretty close to violating some TOS.

Can we keep it civil please, and discuss.

 

Regarding the Broads as a tidal haven . The days of commercial cargo-carrying on the Broads such as freighters on the Yare are long gone ( excepting reed collecting lighters and eel fishermen ) so the havens now can really only considered to be below Haven Bridge or Mutford Lock.

Those with larger sea-going craft have excellent marina facility opportunities at Lowestoft Haven, Yarmouth harbour side, Southwold River, Ipswich marinas etc.

When people talk of suitability of boats for Broads they are invariably talking about purpose built displacement design hulls and the fleets of bathtub and modern hire boats present little problem of creating excessive wash., maybe less true of some of Brooms latest though. Sea going hulls again by their design present greater issues of wash to the riverbanks and other users, especially when at speed.

So to the governing point and my, apparently, stupid question.

A large truck or HGV on the road is governed for safety reasons and minimises the risks a bad driver of them may pose to other road users. So the large sea-going craft can be called the HGV's of the inland waterways as their size and wash potential can produce a similar intimidating presence to other watercraft, esp the smaller type who have come to enjoy the Broads Holiday area and as discussed are perhaps novices at it. 

Frightening stuff for Mum and Dad and the kids who have been sold the dream of a relaxing safe and stressfree time on the Broads.

 

If owners won't comply to speed restrictions and behave thoughtfully to other users then , yes , govern them down whilst they keep their boat above Haven or Mutford.

As speiologist righly said there is no need for any competent skipper to have loads of HP in reserve for emergency use . If you use the tides winds currents correctly then nothing can really go wrong and you can extricate yourself from just about any issue you encounter.

My years of training with RYA powerboat courses and Offshore Fast Rescue Craft (FRC) taught me all of that.

Plus our excellent rescue services are ever present.

[Poppy]

12 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

MODS. !  Help !  They.re ganging up on me again. !

Words in response to my post like fatuous or using the SAD button to ridicule my post must be getting pretty close to violating some TOS.

Can we keep it civil please, and discuss.

 

Regarding the Broads as a tidal haven . The days of commercial cargo-carrying on the Broads such as freighters on the Yare are long gone ( excepting reed collecting lighters and eel fishermen ) so the havens now can really only considered to be below Haven Bridge or Mutford Lock.

Those with larger sea-going craft have excellent marina facility opportunities at Lowestoft Haven, Yarmouth harbour side, Southwold River, Ipswich marinas etc.

When people talk of suitability of boats for Broads they are invariably talking about purpose built displacement design hulls and the fleets of bathtub and modern hire boats present little problem of creating excessive wash., maybe less true of some of Brooms latest though. Sea going hulls again by their design present greater issues of wash to the riverbanks and other users, especially when at speed.

So to the governing point and my, apparently, stupid question.

A large truck or HGV on the road is governed for safety reasons and minimises the risks a bad driver of them may pose to other road users. So the large sea-going craft can be called the HGV's of the inland waterways as their size and wash potential can produce a similar intimidating presence to other watercraft, esp the smaller type who have come to enjoy the Broads Holiday area and as discussed are perhaps novices at it. 

Frightening stuff for Mum and Dad and the kids who have been sold the dream of a relaxing safe and stressfree time on the Broads.

 

If owners won't comply to speed restrictions and behave thoughtfully to other users then , yes , govern them down whilst they keep their boat above Haven or Mutford.

As speiologist righly said there is no need for any competent skipper to have loads of HP in reserve for emergency use . If you use the tides winds currents correctly then nothing can really go wrong and you can extricate yourself from just about any issue you encounter.

My years of training with RYA powerboat courses and Offshore Fast Rescue Craft (FRC) taught me all of that.

Plus our excellent rescue services are ever present.

Excellent post and the highlighted point is well made .

I suggest that theason these owners choose not to keep their boat on th salty side is for one of two reasons - they lack the skills or confidence to do so, or mooring on the Broads is less expensive.

There are restrictions on the power of auxilliary yachts, which may have less than 10 hp or they suffer penalties by way of higher tolls.

Perhaps the time has come for the same principle to be appled to powered craft with engines of say more than 50 hp ?

[Vaughan]

8 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Words in response to my post like fatuous

I used the word fatuous, in its meaning of silly, as I couldn't imagine you were serious, so I gave an equally silly reply. Perhaps it is the way you post sometimes, which could seem as though you are trying a bit of a wind-up? 

Anyway, if you are serious about limiting all motor boats on the Broads, then I think you are wrong.

11 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

If you use the tides winds currents correctly then nothing can really go wrong and you can extricate yourself from just about any issue you encounter.

Not in my experience, having grown up with the tides on the Yare.

 

12 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Plus our excellent rescue services are ever present.

That suggests a Devil-may-care attitude and again, I hope you are not serious?

[RealWindmill]

15 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

 

That suggests a Devil-may-care attitude and again, I hope you are not serious?

With regard to Em Services i'm deadly serious and consider them as important as Ambulances and Fire Engines are on the roads. They don't make me have a reckless or dare devil outlook.

[NeilB]

52 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Reading back on this, I have just remembered another very important matter, when cutting down boat speed by limiting the revs of the engine.

Hydraulic drive, or a PRM "twin disc" gearbox will give the same shaft revolutions in astern, as in ahead.  The TMP, or especially the Borg Warner, also the old Parsons, do not.

These boxes need high revs on the engine to have effective stern power, so if you cut the engine revs to say 1800, you will end up with your boats hitting the quay when mooring, as they can't go astern properly.

There is also the fact that a fine pitch propeller needs high revs to give effective power in astern.

Another reason why the limiting of revs on hire boats is a "hands on" skill.  A delicate balance between cutting speed, or cutting safety in boat handling.

Where possible we'd move the morse lever so it hit the dashboard hence limiting forward speed but left reverse with a little more power.  Just hope the hirer didn't have a little knowledge and a set of allen keys or unscrew the knob!  I've also seen brackets mounted on the side mounted controls for similar effect.

[grendel]

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

If owners won't comply to speed restrictions and behave thoughtfully to other users then , yes , govern them down whilst they keep their boat above Haven or Mutford.

here you show your true colours, this makes it seem that your comments are not aimed at hirers at all, when you talk of owners, its down to all people in charge of a boat to comply with the speed restrictions, upon looking i could only spot a single sad emoji, and this seemed to be a response to your assertation that all boats should be governed, and in that situation seemed an apt response from a private boat owner.

Your relating the governing to an HGV fails when it comes to safety and tides, HGV's dont have to push against a tide that could leave them going backwards out of control, boats sometimes do. whether they should be doing this or not is down to a choice by the skipper at the time.

[trambo]

18 minutes ago, NeilB said:

.  Just hope the hirer didn't have a little knowledge and a set of allen keys or unscrew the knob!  

Sorry to say I've been guilty of both but (and I know it's a poor excuse) I am going back to the time when there were few speed limits and if your wash wasn't breaking, you were considered fine.

Fred

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, grendel said:

Your relating the governing to an HGV fails when it comes to safety and tides,

I would add that HGVs are limited by road speed, according to the tachograph. They are not limited by engine revs, when going through as many as 16 forward gears.

[Poppy]

13 minutes ago, grendel said:

here you show your true colours, this makes it seem that your comments are not aimed at hirers at all, when you talk of owners, its down to all people in charge of a boat to comply with the speed restrictions, upon looking i could only spot a single sad emoji, and this seemed to be a response to your assertation that all boats should be governed, and in that situation seemed an apt response from a private boat owner.

Your relating the governing to an HGV fails when it comes to safety and tides, HGV's dont have to push against a tide that could leave them going backwards out of control, boats sometimes do. whether they should be doing this or not is down to a choice by the skipper at the time.

No, boats don't have  to, as has been pointed out earlier.  Learn to understand tides and act according to this knowledge.

You can save fuel that way too.

[Vaughan]

I suppose one could take this sort of argument forward, to the thought that I don't need to wear a lifejacket as I am an expert who works the tides. I am therefore always in still water and  can simply swim to the bank, where all the rescue services will be waiting to give of their voluntary time to care for me?

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

MODS. !  Help !  They.re ganging up on me again. !

Words in response to my post like fatuous or using the SAD button to ridicule my post must be getting pretty close to violating some TOS.

Can we keep it civil please, and discuss.

 

Regarding the Broads as a tidal haven . The days of commercial cargo-carrying on the Broads such as freighters on the Yare are long gone ( excepting reed collecting lighters and eel fishermen ) so the havens now can really only considered to be below Haven Bridge or Mutford Lock.

Those with larger sea-going craft have excellent marina facility opportunities at Lowestoft Haven, Yarmouth harbour side, Southwold River, Ipswich marinas etc.

When people talk of suitability of boats for Broads they are invariably talking about purpose built displacement design hulls and the fleets of bathtub and modern hire boats present little problem of creating excessive wash., maybe less true of some of Brooms latest though. Sea going hulls again by their design present greater issues of wash to the riverbanks and other users, especially when at speed.

So to the governing point and my, apparently, stupid question.

A large truck or HGV on the road is governed for safety reasons and minimises the risks a bad driver of them may pose to other road users. So the large sea-going craft can be called the HGV's of the inland waterways as their size and wash potential can produce a similar intimidating presence to other watercraft, esp the smaller type who have come to enjoy the Broads Holiday area and as discussed are perhaps novices at it. 

Frightening stuff for Mum and Dad and the kids who have been sold the dream of a relaxing safe and stressfree time on the Broads.

 

If owners won't comply to speed restrictions and behave thoughtfully to other users then , yes , govern them down whilst they keep their boat above Haven or Mutford.

As speiologist righly said there is no need for any competent skipper to have loads of HP in reserve for emergency use . If you use the tides winds currents correctly then nothing can really go wrong and you can extricate yourself from just about any issue you encounter.

My years of training with RYA powerboat courses and Offshore Fast Rescue Craft (FRC) taught me all of that.

Plus our excellent rescue services are ever present.

 

As I under stand it nobody owns the water in the  Broads rivers  so by what right does anyone have to decide who can use it and who should be barred as long as they meet safety requirements and pay their dues

[ExSurveyor]

The Broads are for everyone, from a SUP to a 50' "gin palace".

Having been moored on the Yare last week I was bounced around by hire craft, "gin palaces" and a 15' speedbboat, all within the speed limit.

The biggest problem is lack of awareness of the wash they are creating going past moored boats.

The 52' "gin palace" glided past with little wash, I only knew it was there becauce it blocked the sun out , the speedboat bounced us around.

The smaller Brooms create a lot more wash even within the posted speed limit.

[annv]

Perhaps a boat should be restricted by how short a distance it can stop dead, after all the amount of wash is not directly proportional to its speed through the water for all hull shapes but being able to stop is proportional to its hitting power to cause damage  to another object and possible injury to persons. John

[RealWindmill]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I suppose one could take this sort of argument forward, to the thought that I don't need to wear a lifejacket as I am an expert who works the tides. I am therefore always in still water and  can simply swim to the bank, where all the rescue services will be waiting to give of their voluntary time to care for me?

An expert who works the tides would understand that are NOT always be in still water  as they will always work those tides to assist their boating and therefore be punching or stemming the water as the situation requires.

[RealWindmill]

2 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

 

The biggest problem is lack of awareness of the wash they are creating going past moored boats.

 

Exactly PS,  and if that awareness can't or won't be achieved then technology (i.e. governing)   should be employed to enforce that awareness and so minimise the problem (i.e. you getting bounced around so much).

[RealWindmill]

3 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

 

As I under stand it nobody owns the water in the  Broads rivers  so by what right does anyone have to decide who can use it and who should be barred as long as they meet safety requirements and pay their dues

My understanding too RSF.  The key phrase is as long as they meet safety requirements.  Clearly they often do not else why would the BA want to clamp down on them.  Nobody wants to ban anyone or any chosen vessel per se , just limit their damage capabilities.

[Vaughan]

26 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

The key phrase is as long as they meet safety requirements.  Clearly they often do not else why would the BA want to clamp down on them.

You didn't like "fatuous" so let's try spurious allegation.  Are you suggesting that modern boats on the Broads have not been built to E.R.C.D. category D, or do not have a BSS certificate?

What are you now saying that "the BA want to clamp down on"?  I know a lot of boat building yards on the Broads who would strongly resent a remark like that.

[RealWindmill]

Clearly a misunderstanding here Vaughan. The BA clamp down referred  to is the Speeding and excessive wash aspect. Nothing at all to do with boat construction or equipment specs.

[BroadAmbition]

Perhaps a boat should be restricted by how short a distance it can stop dead, 

And even that is not straight forward when one has to take into account tide / wind, the changeable draft depending on how many crew / fuel / water / stores are onboard

Griff

[BroadAmbition]

Personally I would strongly advocate than any privately owned craft should never have imposed on its mechanical propulsion any sort of governing whatsoever

Furthermore I would argue that point until the tides stop

Griff

[BroadAmbition]

Regarding the Broads as a tidal haven . The days of commercial cargo-carrying on the Broads such as freighters on the Yare are long gone ( excepting reed collecting lighters and eel fishermen ) - Agree - Obviously

so the havens now can really only considered to be below Haven Bridge or Mutford Lock - Disagree - Obviously

The Broad's are tidal - therefore anywhere that any vessel from seaward can navigate to safely on the system can be fairly classed as a tidal haven

Griff

[RealWindmill]

55 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

 

The Broad's are tidal - therefore anywhere that any vessel from seaward can navigate to safely on the system can be fairly classed as a tidal haven

Griff

There's that word again, safely.  (my emphasis).

Any vessel coming onto the system with a seagoing design hull that causes high wash when driven at speed  is NOT navigating safely as he is a danger to smaller vessels and moored boats. 

So, educate the skipper to be aware of that danger. Or govern his vessel down to ensure compliance.

[BroadAmbition]

Educate - Yes - Govern down - Never. 

And what happens when proceeding to sea again?

Or a blast over Breydon?

Or wishing to navigate against a full ebb on the lower Bure - It happens by choice now and again

De regulate the engine(s) what a palarva

You might as well go the whole hog and regulate every road vehicle, cars, bikes, vans, mini buses the lot

There is already in some instances far too much nanny state interference as there is without adding a whole new tier to it where leisure boats on the Broads are concerned

Griff

[RealWindmill]

 

2 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

Educate - Yes - Govern down - Never. 

And what happens when proceeding to sea again?

Or a blast over Breydon?

Or wishing to navigate against a full ebb on the lower Bure - It happens by choice now and again

De regulate the engine(s) what a palarva

You might as well go the whole hog and regulate every road vehicle, cars, bikes, vans, mini buses the lot

There is already in some instances far too much nanny state interference as there is without adding a whole new tier to it where leisure boats on the Broads are concerned

Griff

Well , there are so many holes in this post I not sure where to start.

Am actually getting quite bored with this now so perhaps won't bother . nobody seems to want to sensibly discuss the Safety aspects of the OPs question but seem to want to defend how it will affect their personal boat usage.

But hey, i'll give it one more go before I get back to the football.

And what happens when proceeding to sea again?  De regulate the engine(s) what a palarva

Modern engines can be easily and quickly governed and degoverned electronically or by software. Older engines could use a form of simple linkage stop with a seal around a clip to prevent tampering. All easily rigged and derigged in probably less time than it takes to do a pumpout.

Or a blast over Breydon?

Why would you want to ? there's a big sea out there. And you can't scare novice boaters out there.

Or wishing to navigate against a full ebb on the lower Bure - It happens by choice now and again

You may also wish to scream up the M1 at 150mph also, but that is also socially unacceptable and a bit risky.

You might as well go the whole hog and regulate every road vehicle, cars, bikes, vans, mini buses the lot.

We practically do that already. Not many road vehicles can go at 140mph i.e. twice the National speed limit.

By comparison, Many broads sea going boats will achieve 20 or 25kts as a minimum easily. i.e four times plus the Broads limits.

There is already in some instances far too much nanny state interference as there is without adding a whole new tier to it where leisure boats on the Broads are concerned

Agreed, but the BA are on a mission to make the Broads safer after this recent season of quite tragic events, so Nanny interference into how boats are operated and used  on the Broads will follow , like it or not.

Bob.

 

[Vaughan]

41 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Am actually getting quite bored with this now so perhaps won't bother .

Funny that.

I was about to say the same thing about you.

43 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

nobody seems to want to sensibly discuss the Safety aspects of the OPs question

In which case, you haven't listened to a word I have written in answer to your questions. And yet you accuse others of having incontravertible opinions?