Extra £40m For Green Spaces

[ChrisB]

I am tableting in bed so can't post a link, however the BBC is reporting this morning that the NPs and AONB are to receive an extra £40m.

After the turbulence of the past week Mop Top will be in for an extra cuddle from Carrie this morning! The power behind the throne having serious "Green Credentials"

I think "Green Issues" will become very much more to the fore from now on. I read this week that they are seriously considering banning the sale of new internal combustion in 2030 and Hybrid by 2035 for road transport, bringing the legislation forwards by 10 years.

Where will that will leave leisure boating? I wonder!

[grendel]

where will it leave all those drivers that buy into the electric dream, building new power stations is a 10-15 year program, and we havent even started building those that will be needed to supply the electricity to charge all these electric vehicles.

where I live I am struggling to be able to fit a power shower because the electrical infrastructure is on its limits, designed in the 1960's when most houses just had electric lights one maybe 2 appliances and maybe a cooker, 2 sockets to a room. new power generation will be required, at least double what we have now, new cables down every road, its a 50 year program to achieve the power to charge all these vehicles, yet they expect it to be done for 2030 when nobody has even started addressing the problems of charging, new estates are being built with the minimum number of chargers they can get away with under the regulations, how will 3 or 4 charging points meet the needs of 50 households all with electric cars.

[ranworthbreeze]

IMHO self charging hybrids are the only way forward if we must be forced down this electrical car route. The average small car as featured recently on top gear (Corsa, Mini & Honda) were all around the £24,000 mark, hybrids being more costly. 

None of these electric options are green when you take into account the materials used in producing the batteries, they have a shorter life than standard cars and if they are operated on charging only as gendel says the infrastructure to charge the said vehicles will take many years to develop. One has to ask how will producing all this additional power make the country any greener. 

[RS2021]

56 minutes ago, grendel said:

new power generation will be required, at least double what we have now, new cables down every road, its a 50 year program

In the 1950's & 60's electricity consumption virtually doubled every 10 years. The system kept pace them, why has it suddenly become a 50 year programme now? I suspect its because we don't actually believe it will happen so haven't put the foot on the accelerator yet. Once it becomes real I believe we are capable of delivering it. 

[grendel]

The easy answer is that normal consumption still is doubling, so there is a build program to cope with that, however, we are talking about electric vehicle charging being on top of that, add to that that all the new capacity is in new build (generally speaking, so on the edges of existing supply and its not a problem, but the additional chargers are going to be required where people are living already, on networks designed for maximum usage and minimal expansion, (transformers work best at full load rather than partial load). so we are going to need additional power in the worst place to try and put it - alongside existing infrastructure.

my company already struggles in central london to supply loads to new developments, sometimes having to bring electricity into london from grid sites outside the city centre, 5 or 6 km cable runs are becoming the norm - just to supply a new office block or estate, once the spare capacity in those outlying grid sites is used, we will have to go further out to get the electricity into these central city areas. some developments we can combine the new build cables for several developments into a single feeder circuit, but then we need to build a primary substation- lead times on transformers for these can be 5-8 years alone. and the costs and disruption these long cable runs cause is enormouse, imagine over several months we need to shut down significant portions of londons road networks for roadworks. believe me when I say 50 years is a conservative guess at how long it would take to get Londons network (or any large city) up to scratch for vehicle charging on a large scale. a single substation (1 MVA) will charge just over 60 cars, or supply over 500 properties.

the green option would be do away with the cars and make great improvements in public transport systems.

anyway we are digressing from the original topic which was £40 million for green spaces, some of this should probably be spent in finding green ways to access these spaces, rather than allowing the users to drive to them, or indeed providing vehicle charge points at the parking areas for these sites.

[ChrisB]

1 hour ago, ranworthbreeze said:

IMHO self charging hybrids are the only way forward if we must be forced down this electrical car route. The average small car as featured recently on top gear (Corsa, Mini & Honda) were all around the £24,000 mark, hybrids being more costly. 

None of these electric options are green when you take into account the materials used in producing the batteries, they have a shorter life than standard cars and if they are operated on charging only as gendel says the infrastructure to charge the said vehicles will take many years to develop. One has to ask how will producing all this additional power make the country any greener. 

I saw that programme Alan. I don't know where they got their prices from. I priced up the Honda to the spec they were driving and it was over £30K.

I also priced up a Kia Soul with the large battery pack giving a quoted 250+ mile range, £38K! You can get a nice Evoque petrol auto for that money.

 

[MauriceMynah]

I have further concerns about this.

I would ask members to do the rough maths on this.

Covid has cost the government a fortune. This bill will need, over a period of time, to be paid.

Most of the price of a litre of petrol/diesel is tax/duty, this part of governments income will drop significantly.

Households and transport will rely totally on electricity. 

What will the government tax to recoup some of the money they've lost?

[ChrisB]

14 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I have further concerns about this.

I would ask members to do the rough maths on this.

Covid has cost the government a fortune. This bill will need, over a period of time, to be paid.

Most of the price of a litre of petrol/diesel is tax/duty, this part of governments income will drop significantly.

Households and transport will rely totally on electricity. 

What will the government tax to recoup some of the money they've lost?

£10 on a packet of cigs,   £5 on a bottle of Spirits

£3 on a bottle of wine,     £4 on a bottle of fortified wine.     £1 on a pint. 

That will fill the piggy bank!

[RS2021]

17 minutes ago, grendel said:

The easy answer is that normal consumption still is doubling,

Electricity consumed in UK 2010 329TWh. Electricity consumed in 2019 295TWh. That's a reduction (OK so some of it will be generation behind the meter). In the last 10 years over 13GW of Photovoltaics have been connected to the UK electricity system and an even greater capacity of wind. 

But, my point isn't about the statistics its that I believe in the capabilities of Engineers in the UK. I'm not saying that it is easy - a lot of work will be required, but we have some great Engineers in the UK and given the need and the freedom to deliver it can be done. I still believe that current battery technology is what is holding it all back. But if that changes...

 

[grendel]

we have the great engineers (and I know, I work with some and have worked with many others) but we dont have the numbers of trainees that should be comingup through the ranks, by the time 2030 comes around, a lot of the current crop of engineers will have retired. engineering not seen as a cool or easy degree to come by, I work with quite a few of the up and coming generation of engineers too, and there just arent enough of them.

[trambo]

I know there were environmental concerns but what has happened to the host of schemes for tidal power? I would have thought a much more reliable source than the wind.

[RS2021]

5 minutes ago, grendel said:

we have the great engineers (and I know, I work with some and have worked with many others) but we dont have the numbers of trainees that should be comingup through the ranks, by the time 2030 comes around, a lot of the current crop of engineers will have retired. engineering not seen as a cool or easy degree to come by, I work with quite a few of the up and coming generation of engineers too, and there just arent enough of them.

I fully agree. Future skills is a very important area and numbers do need to increase.

[annv]

The majority of domestic cars would be charged overnight on white meter or like i do on my electric scooter once a week on solar all on a 13 amp domestic supply socket and as regards boat engines they are twenty years behind car/lorry engines so there will be boat engines around until 2050, i don't think this will worry me to much and as boat engines last 50 years this will take us to 2100 so my son won't be concerned either. this won't stop me from having a electric hybrid boat purely for convenience and low maintenance, cost is much less of concern as is the ease and convenience  of use. John

[grendel]

38 minutes ago, annv said:

The majority of domestic cars would be charged overnight on white meter or like i do on my electric scooter once a week on solar all on a 13 amp domestic supply socket

unless you live like me mid terrace with the houses at right angles to the road, i have no way to get the electric to the car short of a 40 foot extension along and across the footpath.

[marshman]

You could spend that on the Broads, let alone share it amongst every NP, pseudo NP and AONB!! That must be almost a tenner each!!!!! Big deal!!!

[floydraser]

Green issues, ah I love the hypocrisy we have to ignore to be fashionable!

Electric cars don't seem to have gone through a development phase in terms of economy; they've come straight in with the emphasis on fashion and marketing. Can you buy a real eco model without electric windows, door mirrors etc. Self opening /closing tailgate anyone? I understand an Audi option is door “mirrors” which are actually tiny cameras with an hd screen!

And where do we get the stuff to make the batteries and where do we dump it when the battery is dead? How much are new batteries?

Why does a service on an electric car cost so much? Having had 3 cars from new, 3 different makes, I think I'm pretty close to the truth when I say they hardly do much anyway! Electric cars are a licence to print money on the back of the environmental ticket.

Unless things have changed, for me to do the 280 mile round trip to the boat and back I would have to recharge an electric away from home, the cost of which would make it more pricey than diesel. To keep costs down I would have to get just enough charge to get me home. But then I wouldn't be able to use the car for 8 hours.

We won't have the capacity to generate the required power because we chucked away our nuclear power industry for the sake of political correctness. We didn't want smelly coal fired power stations but neither did we trust the nuclear industry. Now we're having to try and tempt foreign expertise to come over and help us out.