How Much Diesel Use

[Vaughan]

6 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

No, there was about 220 litres of diesel on board and you needed to suck a lot out to make the needle respond.

Exactly. All hire boats will do a week without filling up and almost all will do 2 weeks, unless the yard suggest filling up after the first week. So you don't need a gauge. A water gauge nowadays, is rather more important.

[andyg]

Ive seen quite a few comments across social media regarding faulty fuel/ water gauges. Do tanks on boats not use the same technology as say car fuel tanks ?? why fit them if your not going to maintain them ?? Surely a yard is just making a rod for there own backs by leaving it broken. 

[Vaughan]

Again, Andy is quite right, especially as he looks at it from the customer's point of view.

If it is fitted, then it has to WORK.  Otherwise it gets complaints.  Often, the problem is actually getting access to the top of the tank to change the float switch.

Why not take the dial out of the dashboard and fit an hour meter instead? Much more useful!

[andyg]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Again, Andy is quite right, especially as he looks at it from the customer's point of view.

If it is fitted, then it has to WORK.  Otherwise it gets complaints.  Often, the problem is actually getting access to the top of the tank to change the float switch.

Why not take the dial out of the dashboard and fit an hour meter instead? Much more useful!

Exactly Vaughan, I personally don't think it's to much to ask. Tomorrow we board one hw big elite boats. Even for a mid October week we have paid a considerable amount of money. We all would expect things to be as advertised. To many times on this forum I see members defending poor standards and customer service. Even excepting lame excuses for things that are broken etc etc. Hire tariffs are at an all time high with even a 40 year old bath tub demanding a weekly hire charge in excess of 1k next season. I may sound a bit harsh and critical but I'm not paying for sub standard goods or poor service. Just give me what you sold me. I paid you what you asked me to and when you asked me. BTW I've had delays on take over when a boat has been damaged on return etc, that's absolutely fine by me it's not the yards fault. 

[Coryton]

9 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

There were only 7 or 8 Diamond 43s built. The one I had I am pretty sure didn't have a fuel gauge. Only one boat in my fleet had one and that failed (and was not repaired). When it worked, it caused constant problems with people ringing up saying that hadn't moved, was there a problem with it? No, there was about 220 litres of diesel on board and you needed to suck a lot out to make the needle respond. You can't please everybody.

 

 

The Boats of the Norfolk Broads web site shows 7.

We made a list and (thanks to some sharp eyes in the crew) managed to see them all in two weeks on the Broads, including the one that was out of the water.

Perhaps we should have been more demanding as customers but we didn't fuss over the wandering fuel gauge. If we'd paid for a top of the range boat we might have felt differently.

We did bother the boat yard though when we lost steering completely leaving us mudweighted and unable to go anywhere but fortunately with mobile phone coverage (and not in anyone's way).

[Mouldy]

21 hours ago, DAVIDH said:

. . . . . though Faircaft charge significantly less, and Barnes levy up to £200 on their larger craft. 

Are Faircraft (NBD) not ‘all inclusive’ now?

[Vaughan]

16 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Are Faircraft (NBD) not ‘all inclusive’ now?

I believe they are.  This is a customer's choice as some people prefer to know in advance exactly how much it is going to cost.  Remember that you don't have to accept this option : you have the right to pay a fuel deposit and also the right to leave a security deposit instead of the damage waiver.

You have to risk the excess if you do minor damage on your car and it is the same for a boat.  You are still only liable up to the amount of the deposit. The rest is on the boat's insurance.  With a damage waiver you are, in effect, insuring against the excess.

[DAVIDH]

1 hour ago, Mouldy said:

Are Faircraft (NBD) not ‘all inclusive’ now?

Oops yes they are. Well technically I'm right. Nothing is significantly less.

[andyg]

I actually like the idea of just one price no added extras. But !! There's always a but, when nbd launched the AI idea on there fb page it caused a bit of a stir. Quite a few loyal customer's didn't like the idea and one particular lady push them quite hard on how they'd worked the fuel out. Apparently its worked out on the average consumption for each individual boat over a season. Now this is where the but comes in. Can we see the flaws in this process already ?? I personally know a very loyal customer of nbd who holidays with them twice a year. He only ever travels up and down the ant and surrounding rivers and he really does just plod along. Many of us have probably overtaken him once or twice over the year's. He would normally get a sizeable fuel refund. He has worked out his holiday is costing him approx £80 per week more since they have changed things. He feels short changed as is now looking at moving yards, which is a real shame as he is well know by the staff and he loves nbd. I guess fuel consumption will always be the sticking point for many.. 

[Vaughan]

40 minutes ago, andyg said:

He has worked out his holiday is costing him approx £80 per week more since they have changed things.

I agree, but if he has worked it out, then choose to pay a fuel deposit instead.

If this sort of thing ever came to court, I would not like to predict the outcome.  Let's say, they are sailing close to the wind!

In principle, if you charge a damage waiver then you are setting yourself up as an insurance company, which you are not, in law.  The "get out clause", if you like, is that it is still your free choice.  If you don't want to pay it, you don't have to.

[Coryton]

8 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In principle, if you charge a damage waiver then you are setting yourself up as an insurance company, which you are not, in law.  The "get out clause", if you like, is that it is still your free choice.  If you don't want to pay it, you don't have to.

My recent booking through Hoseasons shows the "non refundable damage waiver" as being "insurance" underwritten by what I presume is the name of an insurance company (not one I recognize). 

[Mouldy]

1 hour ago, andyg said:

I actually like the idea of just one price no added extras. But !! There's always a but, when nbd launched the AI idea on there fb page it caused a bit of a stir. Quite a few loyal customer's didn't like the idea and one particular lady push them quite hard on how they'd worked the fuel out. Apparently its worked out on the average consumption for each individual boat over a season. Now this is where the but comes in. Can we see the flaws in this process already ?? I personally know a very loyal customer of nbd who holidays with them twice a year. He only ever travels up and down the ant and surrounding rivers and he really does just plod along. Many of us have probably overtaken him once or twice over the year's. He would normally get a sizeable fuel refund. He has worked out his holiday is costing him approx £80 per week more since they have changed things. He feels short changed as is now looking at moving yards, which is a real shame as he is well know by the staff and he loves nbd. I guess fuel consumption will always be the sticking point for many.. 

Another reason that I don’t like the idea of all inclusive is that savvy hirers will be aware that prudent use of the throttle will result in a better chance of a refund of part of their fuel deposit and the end of their holiday.  However, if fuel usage doesn’t matter, why not thrash everywhere at full throttle, as there will be no financial penalty at the end (unless you get caught by a ranger).

I get the principle, but don’t think it will be fair to the vast majority of hirers.  Companies aren’t going to promote something unless it’s in their best interests, are they?

[Vaughan]

34 minutes ago, Coryton said:

as being "insurance" underwritten by what I presume is the name of an insurance company (not one I recognize). 

As I suggested : sailing close to the wind.

[Bikertov]

For a yard with a big fleet, presumably they could 'self insure' for their own damage (but not the 3rd party liability), and the waiver fee just helps the commercials of that ?

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

As I suggested : sailing close to the wind.

I don't understand.

It looks as if part of my booking is a payment to an insurance company to cover any damage I cause to the boat I've hired or to other boats.

Is that not the case?

[FairTmiddlin]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

I don't understand.

It looks as if part of my booking is a payment to an insurance company to cover any damage I cause to the boat I've hired or to other boats.

Is that not the case?

Possibly labelled as CDW or Collision Damage Waiver. Used by Car hire and Boat holidays. Unless you wish to pay for the excess yourself on a policy. it's best to pay it.

[Oddfellow]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

I don't understand.

It looks as if part of my booking is a payment to an insurance company to cover any damage I cause to the boat I've hired or to other boats.

Is that not the case?

You are not making any payment to an insurance company. You are paying for the privilege of not being pursued for  any damage caused whilst the boat is signed over to your care. The majority of such terms will also specify that damage caused by malicious or irresponsible / negligent behaviour is not covered. 

[DAVIDH]

It clearly isn't a universal insurance policy for anyone booking through Hoseasons, as it varies depending on which boatyard you book through. It also irks me that a "non refundable damage waiver" is not included in the overall hire cost, as you are unable to avoid paying it. 

Operators of overseas holiday were compelled by law to include all non-discretionary items in the overall cost many years ago, which stopped adverts for £xxx plus taxes etc. I know fuel is different, as it's dependent on how much you use, but not adding the Damage Waiver is just wrong. It confuses the customer, which I think is what NBD are actually trying to avoid, with their All Inclusive rates. 

[Coryton]

23 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

You are not making any payment to an insurance company. You are paying for the privilege of not being pursued for  any damage caused whilst the boat is signed over to your care. The majority of such terms will also specify that damage caused by malicious or irresponsible / negligent behaviour is not covered. 

Either in the case of my booking it's not as simple as that, or Hoseasons are being downright deceitful in referring to the damage waiver as insurance underwritten by a real insurance company (Allianz). 

[Vaughan]

25 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

It also irks me that a "non refundable damage waiver" is not included in the overall hire cost, as you are unable to avoid paying it. 

I am afraid I can't agree, there.  You can avoid it and I did so myself, on a holiday I booked with Richardsons a short while ago.  I elected to pay a security deposit when making the booking.  They refunded my deposit in cash, which was awkward as I was going back to France the next morning!  They said there was no-one on the yard from management who had the authority to write me a cheque.  That, on a Saturday morning in the high season, is an interesting thought in itself.

34 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

were compelled by law to include all non-discretionary items in the overall cost

The key to this is that word discretionary.  The damage waiver is still the customer's choice.  If not, it would be illegal "insurance" which the boatyard cannot offer, as it is not a registered insurance company.

It's all very simple really.  Most damage to hire boats is minor.  Fender eyes pulled out, bent rubbing strakes, etc.  Even for more serious damage, the yard will very rarely make an insurance claim, as they do their own repairs with their own staff, so all it costs is materials.  Even a serious GRP repair is quite cheap in materials - it is mainly labour hours.

It is very difficult to charge customers for minor damage at the end of a holiday (see my previous post) as they will dispute  the price and it causes bad feeling.  So someone had the idea of offering a damage waiver.  Pay your 30 quid (or whatever) and we will indemnify you from the liability of the excess on our insurance, or else pay a deposit of 200 quid (or whatever) to cover the excess.  The waiver paid goes into a fund which should pay for the yard's minor damage over the season.

Does this fund make a profit? Yes, normally, but nothing extraordinary.  You are taking a risk on the amount of damage that might get done, which is what "real" insurance is all about.  It is a risk business.  Meantime, a third party claim (another boat hit you) is fully covered by the yard's insurance and you are not responsible for any excess, although you may be asked to fill in an accident report form.  Just like a hire car.

I don't think we should get too concerned about this.  No-one is being fiddled - but the fact remains it is not legal insurance.  It is an offer made under the yard's individual conditions of hire and as such, it is entirely the customer's choice.  If you don't want to take the offer, you don't have to.  But you do then take the risk of damage, up to the amount of the security deposit.

The exclusion of wilful damage is an obvious precaution on the yard's part but that is a matter of the conditions of hire in the contract that you have signed, as the charterer.

 

[DAVIDH]

Thanks for the expianation Vaughan. It all makes sense...... and I can see that it works for you with your background knowledge of the hire boat business. But I bet you can count on the fingers of two hands, the number of people who go on to do what you have proposed.  I know you won't agree but I feel it better to include this "excess" in the overall hire cost and avoid the confusion that arises when the customer finds out there's more to pay than just the hire charge (it's more justifiable to say fuel needs to be added as nobody knows how much will be used). Plus. unless you read the booking conditions (which lets face it, most don't), you would be hard pressed to find that you can avoid the charge.  Even then it's worded in such a way as to be as clear as mud. These are from Hoseasons, but i guess direct booking yards will have similar conditions. 

[Broads01]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 The damage waiver is still the customer's choice.

Technically I'm sure you're right Vaughan but I'm not sure whether or not in practice you'd be able to refuse it everywhere. In any case, it tends to be shown exactly the way it is on the Richardson's page above, i.e. as part of the total cost, so it'll be rare a customer would challenge that as you did.

2 hours ago, DAVIDH said:

I know you won't agree but I feel it better to include this "excess" in the overall hire cost

I agree, David. My preference for pricing is to be all inclusive except fuel (because, like Andy above, I want to pay for what I use, not an average). That means parking is included, not like Barnes who take £15 off you. Boatyards offering the " everything except fuel" approach include Freedom as was, Pacific, and Maycraft. Caley Cruisers in Scotland go one better in that they don't even ask for a fuel deposit, only a credit card pre- authorisation.

 

 

[Vaughan]

Hoseasons are a travel agent, so they don't hold a security deposit.  That is up to the boatyard and I notice you have quoted the conditions for a holiday cottage.

To try and make the damage waiver obligatory would be illegal.

I am not going to argue the toss over this one : I think I have explained it as clearly as I can.  In my experience in France, by no means all customers pay the waiver - about 2/3 I would think - and only about 1/3 choose the all inclusive package.  In France this includes security, fuel, car parking, 2 free hire bicycles and on some boats, a priority early boarding.

[Coryton]

7 minutes ago, Broads01 said:

I agree, David. My preference for pricing is to be all inclusive except fuel (because, like Andy above, I want to pay for what I use, not an average). That means parking is included, not like Barnes who take £15 off you. Boatyards offering the " everything except fuel" approach include Freedom as was, Pacific, and Maycraft. Caley Cruisers in Scotland go one better in that they don't even ask for a fuel deposit, only a credit card pre- authorisation.

I'm pretty sure that when we rented a cruiser in Ireland we just went to the office at the end and paid for our fuel. I don't recall a specific credit card pre-authorisation beforehand either.

(No collision damage waiver either, just a hefty deposit).

I wasn't aware that a collision damage waiver could be optional. I'd seriously consider taking the risk on myself. I don't consider the fact that I've paid a wavier gives me carte blanche to go around bashing the boat into things.

[DAVIDH]

40 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Hoseasons are a travel agent, so they don't hold a security deposit.  That is up to the boatyard and I notice you have quoted the conditions for a holiday cottage.

No Vaughan, i specifically sought out the boating conditions - It just reads the same. Anyway, it's just my personal view that if each boatyard included an amount for DW in the hire charge - not listed separately, things would be much clearer for the customer. And for the record, you did explain it clearly. I had incorrectly thought that these £45 (n Richardson's case) were just put into a kitty for any repairs that were needed (which I suppose they are). But they are also protection against the excesses the insurance company would apply if a claim needed to be made.