Green boating?

[ExMemberBobdog]

I'm all in favour of the Broads Authority (and others) trying to encourage 'green boating', to minimise pollution and noise.  Don't get me wrong, I've no objection to motor cruisers, but I think in the long run the Broadland environment would be improved by a growing number of electric powered boats and a slow reduction in the numbers of petrol/diesel powered craft.  I was pleased to see the BA install charging points at various locations.  That's part of what encouraged me to sell my old halfdecker and Honda outboard, and replace it with a halfdecker with an inbuilt electric motor.  So when I can't sail, or when I want to get under the bridges without having to struggle with a quant pole or paddle, I can silently and cleanly glide along.

 

So can anybody tell me why (apparently) the BA have disconnected the charging point up at Hickling?  I was banking on a recharge there next week when I'm heading up that way as part of "The English Raid".  Are all the other points still working?

[ExUserGone]

I like the idea of clean quiet boating but can't imagine a private boat that stands unused for weeks at a time would be good on keeping batteries healthy, and they are not going to be cheap to replace, if a boat needs to be kept on a charger when not used to keep the batteries good it isn't so green realy.

I realy don't think battery technology is up to the job yet.

 

[ExMemberBobdog]

Mmmm, I'm not suggesting all Broads boats should be electric powered (yet) but a long term transition in that direction as an ambition that I do think is a good idea.  Certainly for regularly used boats, (mine is used at least a couple of times a week throughout the season) and a lot of the hire operators have already gone this way with their small dayboats.  Trickle charging solar panels can keep less frequently used boats topped up.  Technology is improving all the time and for tomorrow's boats ...
 

But my point was more about if the BA wants to encourage green boating as it claims, surely it should be putting in more charging points, not disconnecting existing ones?

[mbird]

I was under the impression there were more and more point going in, such as at Bramerton. I can only think the one at Hickling may have a fault that has forced it to be take out of commission?

 

As for so-called green boating with electric boats, everyone forgets the huge amount of pollution and resources manufacturing batteries and the environmental cost of generating the electricity. The only green boating is a flappy thing with a stick to push it along with when the wind is not playing fair.

[Hylander]

Well my reaction to the title post 'green boating' was yep there are a lot of boats moored up in Marinas that are well and truly green.  

 

Boats soon go green if not attending to regularly.

 

M

[VetChugger]

The power point at Hickling has always been a bit of a problem to access. I assume its still in Whispering Reeds yard? I never understood why it was put there! I realise there are no BA defined moorings as such so I can only assume it was purely for the expected electric boat.

 

Trevor

[ExMemberBobdog]

Yup, still there at WR.  I've hired halfdeckers from the folk there in years gone by.  Lovely people, very friendly and helpful.  Might chat them up and see if they'll let me plug into their yard supply if I put a couple of bob in the meter. I'll take my extension lead with me  .  Otherwise, I'll have to sacrifice something to the wind gods, to ask them to fill my flappy thing, or get my paddle out.

 

mbird ... I agree there's no environmental 'cost free' power, it's about where and how we choose to pay the costs.  Electricity generation (in this country at least) has become 'greener' since we have become less dependent on coal, but there's still a long way to go.

 

However, there's also the question of 'local' as opposed to 'global' environmental costs.  For me at least,  a big part of the beauty of the Broads is the peace and tranquility, and being able to enjoy that from on the water.  I want as many people as possible to be able to share that experience, but of course more people means more noise, fumes etc locally (if most of our boats have petrol/diesel engines).  I'd simply rather pay those costs elsewhere ... and I suppose that makes me a 'nimby' ... hey ho 

[Guest]

 

However, there's also the question of 'local' as opposed to 'global' environmental costs.  For me at least,  a big part of the beauty of the Broads is the peace and tranquility, and being able to enjoy that from on the water. 

 

That's a specific advantage about electric powered boating that is often ignored when the "green" credentials of battery power are challenged.

 

Technology is making ever increasing advances in almost every field, except in the economic and efficient storage of electricity.

 

Hydrogen storage is still out of practical reach, so we are left with batteries. Lithium is now very good for low power devices such as phones and computers, but is fearfully expensive with high current devices such as propulsion.

 

So boats almost invariably end up with lead acid batteries, with the short life, inefficient capacity, and non-green disposal problems.

 

The other great practical problem is the charging, as discussed. It's a chicken and egg situation. Dedicated recharging facilities won't exist until the demand is there, which won't be until the charging points are widely available. In the meantime, the few that exist are monopolised by conventional powered boats for "comforts of home".

 

Practical, universal electric power will eventually come to boating, but not in this generation, and maybe not even the next.

 

 

For now, it is only cost effective in very small craft like canoes and dinghies, and hired dayboats, (with their efficient usage turnover and short range required).

 

 

Technology is getting there, very slowly though. I've always been interested in electric bikes, and the advances there have been very good.  My latest one has a range of 40 miles from a Lithium battery that weighs 6kg, and can be charged 4000 times. 10 years ago, the best available was sealed lead acid, with a range of only 20 miles, twice the weight. and a charging life of less than a 100.

[MauriceMynah]

I do wonder if that's the right direction to head in the short term.

Would it not be cheaper to look at some form of hybrid system at the same time as improving the battery issues?

If a diesel generator could be installed in a cruiser with sufficient sound proofing, it could be used to both charge propulsion batteries as well as running all the gismos that the modern hirer demands. When under way the genie could run the engines direct if necessary. 

I know that's not the most efficient way to use the diesel, but it is a lot 'greener' than charging batteries from the national grid.

Solar panels should also be used where practical to top up the system.

All this could be taking place whilst battery technology is being worked on, diesel engine efficiency improved and solar panel technology advanced. Could it be possible that the marine leisure industry might be used as a test bed for the other applications?

It's nice in my naïve little world !    

[Oddfellow]

Green boating? Why is it that the engines are the only topic here?

 

What about grey water over the edge? Surely new boats should be tanking this for pumping out later?

What about zero-formaldahyde toilet chemicals (which we've used for over a year now)?

What about eco-friendly hull coatings?

 

Then theres wash-down systems that prevent chemicals from entering the ground water like Cox's have installed.

 

Recycling waste points would be a decent move by the councils.

 

Petroleum powered vessels are just the tip of this iceberg.

[Hockham Admiral]

I was under the impression there were more and more point going in, such as at Bramerton. I can only think the one at Hickling may have a fault that has forced it to be take out of commission?

 

They seem to be putting in TWO more posts at Loddon, Mark.     

[Guest]

I do wonder if that's the right direction to head in the short term.

Would it not be cheaper to look at some form of hybrid system at the same time as improving the battery issues?

If a diesel generator could be installed in a cruiser with sufficient sound proofing, it could be used to both charge propulsion batteries as well as running all the gismos that the modern hirer demands. When under way the genie could run the engines direct if necessary. 

I know that's not the most efficient way to use the diesel, but it is a lot 'greener' than charging batteries from the national grid.

Solar panels should also be used where practical to top up the system.

All this could be taking place whilst battery technology is being worked on, diesel engine efficiency improved and solar panel technology advanced. Could it be possible that the marine leisure industry might be used as a test bed for the other applications?

It's nice in my naïve little world !    

 

It's a little world that I think about too !

 

Hybrid  Diesel/Electric power has indeed proven to be the only reasonably successful economic way to power electric cars so far.

 

I'm surprised that  electric pleasure craft builders have not used the same basic system that powered all non-nuclear submarines for the past one hundred years.

 

They were all built with the diesel engine and electric motor on the same prop shaft, with the diesel engine at the front, then a clutch, then the electric motor, then another clutch, then the prop shaft.

 

This very simple mechanical layout enabled direct direct diesel power, or direct electric power, or stationary electric charging, with 100% efficiency of the transmission.

 

By comparison, diesel-electric drive, (a diesel engine powering an alternator which then powers an electric motor) increases the cost of the components and introduces power efficiency losses.

 

There's still the problem of the electric charge storage though, (almost half of a submarines total weight was it's batteries !)

 

Unlike with cars though, hybrid power for boats has fewer advantages.

 

With a car, stop/start congested city driving by electric power is much more power efficient than having a diesel engine ticking over, and of course less fumes are being generated in city streets.

 

With boats though, engine speed is much more constant, without even acceleration/deceleration, gradients etc.

 

The ability to switch from electric to diesel would only be useful when the electric batteries run out of power, (which would actually be a significant plus point  though !)

[mbird]

Hybrid boats already exist! Do a google search for "Greenline boats" and you'll see what I mean. Thing is, what is the difference between having a diesel engine chugging away powering a propeller, or one chugging away powering a generator? Is it just the engine could be smaller if only powering a genny?

 

I can just imagine moorings chock full of hybrid boats, all with the genny's running in the morning to charge their batteries so they can then have a days silent cruising on battery power.......

[Guest]

Thing is, what is the difference between having a diesel engine chugging away powering a propeller, or one chugging away powering a generator? Is it just the engine could be smaller if only powering a genny?

 

There's a  big difference in efficiency, and therefore pollution and fuel economy.

 

A diesel engine directly turning a propeller  only suffers the loss of the diesel engine's efficiency in converting fuel straight into rotational power.

 

Whereas a diesel engine powering a generator that then drives an electric motor to get the rotational power introduces additional power losses because the generator and the electric motor are also less than 100% efficient.

 

Each time energy is converted into movement, then back into energy, then back into movement, some of it is wasted.

 

Also, for practical purposes, the diesel engine would have to be at least as powerful as normal for any given boat, or it would take longer to recharge the batteries than the cruising time obtained from them.

[mbird]

That's sort of what I was getting at. Is it actually any better environmentally to have a hybrid boat? Cars are a different matter, as they can recoup some of the energy when slowing down etc to help charge the batteries, but the same isn't true for boats.

[Guest]

That's sort of what I was getting at. Is it actually any better environmentally to have a hybrid boat? Cars are a different matter, as they can recoup some of the energy when slowing down etc to help charge the batteries, but the same isn't true for boats.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post.

 

Yes, you're quite right.

 

"Hybrid" Diesel and Electric power on boats would give none of the advantages that exist with road vehicles.

 

The only benefit would be self-sufficient recharging facilities, which would be very counter productive in terms of noise and pollution if carried out when moored up at some quiet spot for the Evening !  

[ExUserGone]

So who's going to be the first to develop 'warp drive'?, not sure where the dilithium crystals are mined though......

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Leo,

"Its life Jim but not as we know it"

Regards

Alan

[Oddfellow]

There is a Nanni hybrid diesel/electric engine.

[littlesprite]

I can't understand what the problem is, going back as far as the 1960's battery power allowed Ernie to drive the fastest milk float in the west, it seems progress since then has been very slow.

[LondonRascal]

Nothing to do with this, I recently found BETA Marine have a very limited number of videos on you Tube.  One of which is about their Hybrid Engine – I ‘ll put the video up so you can see how it works.

 

It is very simple – but with such technology very expensive (and that is still using ‘old fashion’ Lead Acid batteries). 

 

Take a look at the automotive industry – slowly, grindingly slowly a few cars are being launched that are pushing the technology a bit further – which in turn pushes the scientists behind the batteries – but I think that is being pushed more through wanting gadgets to last longer than cars to go further on a charge.

 

The point is nothing is going to change very soon with cars – so even less would ever change with recreational craft on an inland waterway.  It is all very well to be nice to the environment but there is always the cost equation.  Leave aside the manufacture of batteries and pollution and mining and such like which goes into that, and the provision of power to re-charge (and boy that is an argument that goes on and on between sides I don’t want to get involved with) you have the end of the day problem: money.

 

If a boatyard built a boat that run solely ion batteries – and these were nothing fancy just a bunch of big lead acid cells, it would cost a fortune to ‘kit out’ verses an off the shelf engine.  Then you have to worry about the batteries and how each time they are charged, physics dictates a bit of the lead plates is lost – so despite being able to recharge them many times, with each successive re-charge capacity (thus power and range) is lost until it gets to the point that you need to replace them all over = huge cost.

 

What do you win for doing this as a business? You can only let the boat out to so many people in a given season and you can’t really charge much more for it being ‘green’ because while someone who prefers organic  food and might have the money and morals to support such and opt to hire it – many more just want a holiday be it their boat has an engine or a battery bank. 

 

So, realistically I think as far as being green goes it is the small things that actually can cost very little that might help more (at least locally).

 

Have easy to see, and get to recycling bins – impress upon customers the importance of not throwing away their waste but to recycle it (not just boatyards – but disposal points around Broadland should be cleaner, easier trot understand colour coded bins – glass, plastics, paper and general rubbish).

 

Lead by example and show your business and staff take such seriously too – from the cleaners using environmentally friendly products, to the engineers who fill the boats with fuel to take as much precautious against spilling any as they can – and with oil and oil changes.  It might be wonderful if you could have America, China and Russia (as examples) cut down their general pollution – and that might globally help improve things for us – and the Norfolk Broads – but if you leave that to one side and think about things from how boatyards get their electricity, dispose of rubbish, anti foul and chemicals to clean,  farmers with what they use on fields and water companies with waste water treatments and people who fish with lines and plastic packaging that may be left or just ‘thrown in a that would have a noticeable, direct impact on the area.

 

So you see it does not just revolve around propulsion of a boat.

 

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Bngp8gFlo

[trambo]

Interesting points and video Robin.

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Robin,

 

Thank you for posting the information and video.

 

There are a number of systems that are being put into Narrow boats, there was one featured in a magazine about 18 months ago that showed a aluminium skinned boat that had an hybrid system fitted.

 

The system looked similar with regards to the hybrid engine but the batteries and control systems looked more advanced with smaller sealed batteries.

 

I wish I still had the magazine.

 

Regards

Alan

[Hockham Admiral]

You make valid points there, Robin!

 

Beta Marine have long been associated with boats and electrical power. We have a Beta 1500cc diesel which directly drives a 10KW genny, giving us 42A at 240V. It's all automatically controlled; you just turn a key for 15secs and it all comes to life. They're an impressive and innovative company!

 

http://www.betamarine.co.uk/gensets/betaset_generatingsets.html

[Guest]

Yes, a very interesting video with good clear technical detail on how their system works.


The same mechanical principles as used in diesel submarine power for the last 100 years as I've already waffled on about.

The slight difference being that the alternator/electric motor sits on top of the gearbox, driving down to it via a toothed belt, rather than having a common axial shaft. It would still give minimal power conversion losses though.

Their battery bank consists of twenty four x 2 volt traction battery cells rather than the much more common 12 volt leisure cells. The advantage there being that when any of the cells fails after time, each individual one can be replaced, rather than having to replace them in the sets of 6 in 12v leisure batteries.

 

The 48 volt 450 amp/hour bank stores almost four times as much electric power as the average hire boat's bank of four 135 amp 12v batteries.


So their setup is probably the best commercial solution available today, though at a very expensive cost, and still held back by the archaic limitations of wet lead/acid cells.