What do you think?

[ranworthbreeze]

I can understand that there is a need for a toll on tenders,  but when it is registered with another boat I think it should be an addition to the main boat used and be at a reduced rate, lets face it how many of us use more than one registered boat at the same time?

 

We got rid of ours, it was too small and got in the way of the escape hatch, in addition the outboard took no prisoners every time you bent down to open the gas locker.

 

Regards

Alan

[dnks34]

Alan out of interest is the Toll for RB at the private or Hire rate?

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello dnks34,
 
"Alan out of interest is the Toll for RB at the private or Hire rate?"

 

When we were managed by a management company our toll fee was the commercial rate, when we went self managed the Broads Authority agreed that we could be registered as a private toll user and Ranworth Breeze is registered under the names of our three trustees.  The Broads Authority of course have had to look at a number of syndicate boats on the Broads since the Challenger debacle of 2007, our re-registration was in 2012 our toll fees in 2011 were almost  up to £800 per year on the commercial rate.

 

Regards

Alan
 

[dnks34]

Hi Alan, seems very sensible, I looked into the two syndicates run under the then Ranworth Marine many years ago and remember thinking at the time it didnt seem fair that they were both tolled as hire craft as they are not hire boats at all.

I would also suggest the amount hire firms pay is at a ridiculous level from what clive has said earlier in the thread. In the syndicate circumstance it does show that a fair change to the Toll was made which is encouraging.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I think the fairest way to collect tolls is by the square of your boats extremities. For example, a  boat measuring 40ft x 12ft will have a square footage of 480, and a boat measuring 28ft x 10ft would be 280. The number of engines it has, or what it`s made from, of if it has a generator should not even come into it. Simple and fair, otherwise you`ll have something like the rediculous road taxes we have, where a big powerful modern car that pays either no tax whatsoever, or a meagre £30 per year, whereas a small old car might have to pay in excess of £250, and the much bigger more powerful heavier car will do more damage to the road than the smaller older one.

 

Stick to a boats square footage, no matter what, and charge by the square foot. Simple and fair.

[dnks34]

This format isnt really working out so fair with very small boats is it!

[Baitrunner]

At the end of the day there are winners and losers.

I pay for my boats da tender which is s really used more for fishing than as a tender.

Now how many other people might have a 12ft dinghy used for fishing? £94 a year sounds ok to me. Ok it's out if line if you multiply it out but most things don't compute as simple as double the size double the cost. It's nornally a bit logarithmic.

In the end some will be happy others upset.

Personally I can't believe my car pays no road tax. But it is very fuel efficient and I have another car not used anywhere near as much that pays the full whack.

If your lucky smile, if not then change or put up.

As I said if the tolls got stupid I would move my boat. But thats my call and I would still polute the waters with my fishing dinghy no doubt circa reduced toll less than £94 I currently pay.

[BroadScot]

Hi All,

 

As a hirer, its not till you have a debate like this, you see the pros n cons, the twists n turns of boat ownership. Is there the perfect solution to the cost of Tolls? I doubt it, but I suppose you can never say never.

 

 

Iain.

[dnks34]

Iain all these things could easily put a person off boat ownership! Hiring is still probably the best way to visit the broads in my opinion as you can have all the fun with less of the responsibility, i must admit owning a boat on the broads is beginning to loose some of its attraction for us atleast, theres many more things to consider and niggles to get on your nerves and thats just the staining on the waterline

[BroadScot]

Iain all these things could easily put a person off boat ownership! Hiring is still probably the best way to visit the broads in my opinion as you can have all the fun with less of the responsibility, i must admit owning a boat on the broads is beginning to loose some of its attraction for us atleast, theres many more things to consider and niggles to get on your nerves and thats just the staining on the waterline

Baitrunner, I dont think £94 sounds ok for a dinghy its seems pretty steep to me!

Hi dnks34,

 

I looked into ownership 30 plus years ago. That is why I still hire today!

 

BTW well done 50 posts!

 

 

Iain

[C.Ricko]

Thats the silly thing, we have to pay the multiplier as we use hire boats more than the private boaters use theirs (although they do have the opportunity) 

I would say the average hire season is roughly 23 weeks.

how can it be fair that a syndicate boat gets a subsidised toll when it probably does at least 35 weeks (thats a guess) 

I dont blame the syndicate owners for taking advantage of this loop hole, i just think the hire companies are  beaten with a stick as it is easy revenue, 

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Clive,
 
"Thats the silly thing, we have to pay the multiplier as we use hire boats more than the private boaters use theirs (although they do have the opportunity)

I would say the average hire season is roughly 23 weeks.

how can it be fair that a syndicate boat gets a subsidised toll when it probably does at least 35 weeks (thats a guess)

I dont blame the syndicate owners for taking advantage of this loop hole, i just think the hire companies are beaten with a stick as it is easy revenue"

 

I can understand your frustration; on Ranworth Breeze our official season is 40 weeks with additional weeks available for our owners to hire outside of our scheduled winter service times.

Most of the syndicate boats do operate up to 50 weeks of the year.

 

Please use the information above if it helps your case for a fair tolling system.

It is only the high use of hire craft and owners that use their boats throughout the year that keep the Broads alive; providing employment, keeping pubs open and supporting a boating industry.

 

The concession of what a boats classification by the Broads Authority is not a loophole, every application is vetted by the licencing/tolls department, we had submit an application after submitting our owner contracts after we went self managed.

Any syndicate that is fully or partially managed by a management company still has to be register as a commercial boat. 

 

As I said earlier the collapse of the Challenger Syndicate in 2007 effected at least six syndicate boats on the Broads and left a turmoil in its wake. On the canals this however was far reaching RCI had to cancel hundreds of canal holidays at this time. Boatshare/syndicate ownership was an all time low.

 

Regards

Alan

[C.Ricko]

IT just highlights how unfair the system is becoming, Private boats are being used more than in previous years, so at what point do things change? 

 

obviously with up to 50 weeks a year the syndicate boats are using the public moorings  twice as much as the hire boats so should they pay double? (over 5 times the private rate) personally I don't think so, I think you should pay the same as a private boat as should I. 

 

I share a sailing boat which due to its size the auxiliary engine is over a certain HP, therefore the boat pays full tax. 

 

 

As for the original topic, I think most of the classic sailing boats are on Wroxham broad and therefore don't pay an annual toll. also if a couple of hundred quid towards the upkeep of a boat tips the balance then you should best steer clear of boat ownership, be it wooden or fibreglass 

[Matt]

Any syndicate that is fully or partially managed by a management company still has to be register as a commercial boat.

Regards

Alan

No they don't.....

We are technically registered as a "time share vessel" as there is no better alternative. This incurs the same toll as a private boat. Thunder is 100% owned by a group of individuals who choose to pay a company to provide certain functions to that group of individuals in the same way you might pay a company to service your engine.

[JennyMorgan]

Got to say that I agree with Clive on the question of what is and what is not a hire boat. In my view any boat that is owned by a syndicate is effectively a hire boat. The multiplier was introduced to the hire fleets because it was felt that hire boats, like syndicate boats,  used the Broads far more than private boats thus their their impact on the waterways would be greater. The playing field should be level.

 

Clive has recently stated that about sixty pounds of a weeks letting fee is related to the toll. If, for an easy calculation, we say that the multiplier is 20% then just £12.00 of that cost is that multiplier. If the multiplier was removed would letting fees drop by £12.00? I doubt it because quite simply I question whether such a minor price drop would attract more trade.  But then I wonder how much the private boat toll would rise if the multiplier were removed? Probably not enough to deter private boats. All a case of fairness, there can be little doubt that the hire fleets impact on the Broads more than the private fleets. For example I wonder if we would have the extravagance of  the Spirit of Breydon if it were not for the hire fleets? I suppose it might cost me a quid or two if the multiplier were removed but I think that the present system is basically fair, but, as I've already written, the playing field should be level. 

[JennyMorgan]

I have read elsewhere that the Broads Society's proposal re a toll reduction for heritage boats is not being supported by the Broads Forum. 

 

A while back the BA organised a wherry for paid-for trips from Oulton Broad Yacht Station. The day boat hirers objected on the grounds that they paid a multiplier, the wherry and the BA didn't.  The BA backed down and the trips didn't take place. 

[dnks34]

I really dont agree that a syndicate boat is technically a hire boat! Its a private boat thats used a lot! Its used by the same group of owners time and time again. 2 4 6 12 20 owners where does it start or stop being one or the other?

Being the cynical person I am I would have myself believe that the hire boat multiplyer has more to do with the earnings potential of said hire boat and the BA making sure they get a cut of it.

The Broads does need to be maintained with money from all its users but I agree it should be levelled out, and a good look into how much the BA spend on staples wouldnt go amiss either

[MauriceMynah]

I accept your cynical side of the point, and think it pretty valid. The justification however, being that it is the greater usage of a hire craft over a private boat, could be used to increase the tolls for syndicate boats. Would this be fair? I don't know but it would certainly be a valid argument.

Would such an increase raise a significant sum? Personally I think not but Alan (RB) would know the figures.

A major problem that such a change would cause would be all the other arguments that could be justified.

The sailing craft Jenny Morgan gets greater use than my craft 'Nyx' because of how close it's owner Peter, lives to it so should have a higher rate toll!

 

Argue your way out of that one!!!!!  :)

[BroadScot]

Broadscot--

The worth of owning over hiring is all dependant on the amount of use you can get for your investment, I have been hiring on the broads for 15 yrs, for myself or family, generally I was here 5-6 weeks a year.

I,ve had the Morning Swan for six/ish months now and out of that she has either been occupied or cruising for 17 out of those 24 weeks, at current hire prices that makes her pretty good value as she'll continue in that vein whilst she's here..

The thing I regret now is not buying a long time ago, I could have afforded a much better boat if I had done, probably in a warmer climate too. Andas far as the tolls are concerned work it out on a daily basis, mine isn't much more than a pound a day, pretty good value really considering what else a pound will buy you.

Paul.

HI Paul,

 

I agree what you are saying. For me living over 400 miles away and believe me as a family it was discussed in great detail in the late 70's early 80's of buying rather than hiring. However, it would at best have been 4/5 weeks a year as no way in the winter off season would one drive down from up North. Hence a 100 hires plus later we still hire. Basic logistics I guess.

 

 

Iain.

[Matt]

Would such an increase raise a significant sum? Personally I think not but Alan (RB) would know the figures.

I reckon the number of boats which pay a company to help in the running of their boats can be counted on one hand.

If you are looking at all "syndicates" then how long is a piece of string?

[Baitrunner]

4ft 10inches - just measured mine    

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Iain,

 

If syndicate shares had been available quite a few years ago you would have been the ideal ower, two or up four weeks just turn up and enjoy your time aboard your boat (well a small part of it) like a hire boat but all the comforts of home and at a reduced cost. 

 

Boats are great to own if you have plenty of time on your hands or have pockets full of cash, the average working man has neither. So for us boatshare syndicate ownership was the way to go, after recently finished my 29th week on the Broads I can say it really works.

 

These days I am involved with the management of the boat so it does take up some of my time, but again I like everything related to boating.

 

With regards to the cost of the toll fees most owners regard this as a small percentage of the boat anual costs, in our case it is about 3.5%.

 

Regards

Alan

[JennyMorgan]

4ft 10inches - just measured mine    

That's impressive!

[JennyMorgan]

There are syndicates and then there are syndicates! For example a number of the top end Broads racing cruisers are owned by syndicates, or shared ownership by friends. This is a means of sharing the cost, which can be considerable, carbon masts for example, but it doesn't mean that the boat is out on the water anymore than if she were not shared. Indeed if the costs were not shared by boat share or syndication then it is quite possible that some boats would have to be laid up as being too expensive for individual ownership.

 

On the other hand there is shared ownership/timeshare/syndication that means a boat is out on the water far more than she might otherwise be. The boats usage is shared as much as the cost is. Most hire boats have an eighteen week season, give or take a few weeks, how long is the actual season for the syndicate boats?

 

John, MM, re 'Jenny Morgan' being available 52 weeks of the year, perks of being a native!

[dnks34]

Alan I imagine there may be some owners who are happy just to spend most of their time in and around its mooring rather than going on epic broads journeys on each visit? So how can we quantify that in terms of who uses more!