Sandford Principle By The Back Door?

[JennyMorgan]

http://thebroadsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/water-plants-in-hickling-broad.html

An issue that repeatedly rears its ugly head. My outboards have 'weed cutter' props, will I eventually be barred from using an engine on Hickling?

[Guest]

I am sorry JM but I cant see any reference in that report to potentially banning motor boats - unless I missed something. It refers to keeping the broad open to boaters and the challenge of doing so. I found it quite interesting but only thought the plants were an indicator of water quality - which is good for everybody and should increase fish stocks.
 I thought the BA were dredging hickling? Surely the plants get removed as well if they do?

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, Alone1 said:

I am sorry JM but I cant see any reference in that report to potentially banning motor boats - unless I missed something. It refers to keeping the broad open to boaters and the challenge of doing so. I found it quite interesting but only thought the plants were an indicator of water quality - which is good for everybody and should increase fish stocks.
 I thought the BA were dredging hickling? Surely the plants get removed as well if they do?

Mid June is the date of the study!  ! Many Hickling sailors have given up now, since sailing outside the channel is all but impossible now - and has been since mid July or earlier. I understand as well that dredging may only take place whilst the water temperature remains below 8c. There are other constraints put in place by Natural England which makes dredging all but impossible !

[JennyMorgan]

Alone, the exclusion of motor boats, as with sailing boats is a physical one, exclusion by weed. The Authority's legislative duty is clear, to maintain ALL navigable waters.  Boats have, for generations, navigated the Broad as a whole, fact of history. The Broads Act is quite clear on the Authority's duty on this one. 

[JennyMorgan]

Tom Barrett, Broads Authority Communications Officer has clearly stated that the Broads is not legally a national park. This then begs the question, why Sanford by the back door?

[JanetAnne]

As you know, we have a sailing boat in Catfield Dyke which we can't get out due to shallow water. Two seasons now it's been stuck there, we can't use it and we can't sell it because the new owners would have the same problem.

But not to worry BA are "aware of the issue" and will review it in the future. 

[BroadScot]

11 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

But not to worry BA are "aware of the issue" and will review it in the future. 

By the time that review comes JA, your boat will qualify to be in the Museum of the Broads ! 

[JennyMorgan]

JA, being serious about this, surely you can drag the keel through the silt? The old girl will deteriorate being stuck up there, won't she? Don't want her becoming a houseboat as at Thornham Harbour, landlocked and dried out. Actually it might be interesting if she did, make an interesting planning issue!

[Timbo]

A fairly innocuous blog. But like, I feel JM does, I find myself scanning Yare House blogs and reports looking for the next crackpot idea or at worst deliberate misinterpretation. To be honest it's not a 'nice standpoint' but a necessary one I feel. Don't get me wrong I can understand the pressures involved in protecting a piece of countryside. As a former archaeologist and curator I was responsible for some of the world's most precious objects located in some of the most fragile ecosystems and the juggling of interests between nature, antiquity, business and more importantly the local humanity I'm sure prematurely aged me. However I don't have confidence in the current Authority administration and its own interpretation of its role.

Take the 'promote the navigation' tag. A little further back in the blog we find that instead of making more water navigable, or rescuing Janet Anne's saily thing from Catfield, the money is spent promoting 'the importance of the Broads National Park to the industries, culture and landscape in Norfolk' while sitting in a teepee contemplating your navel at the Norfolk show...and these events are not cheap. I can imagine the reaction if I'd suggested anything like this to the British Museum. To adapt the BA's slogan from said event 'breathing space'. It's high time for a breath of fresh air up at the top. In the meantime I will keep watching and reading between the lines. Okay from time to time I may be wrong or step off the deep end...but from my standpoint folks like JM are the only 'oversight', to use an Americanism, that the BA has.

 

[Vaughan]

How did the River Commissioners ever keep the rivers so well open (more navigations than we have now) without benefit of "hydro-acoustic surveys"? Perhaps because their priorities were far clearer, and rather different?

[JanetAnne]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

JA, being serious about this, surely you can drag the keel through the silt? The old girl will deteriorate being stuck up there, won't she? Don't want her becoming a houseboat as at Thornham Harbour, landlocked and dried out. Actually it might be interesting if she did, make an interesting planning issue!

Yes Peter, we could drag the keel through the silt but we have been stuck fast for over an hour before now which is stressful, inconvenient, annoying and to be honest, if you did not have any certainty of getting back to your mooring, would you risk leaving it? 

Nor would the majority on here.

And yes, the boat has deteriorated. It's worth a quarter of what we paid for it now and it's hard to maintain any interest in what has become just a money pit. 

[Baitrunner]

JA, just to play devils advocate why don't you move to a different mooring so you can use the boat?

I am sure there are principles at stake, but there will only be one loser in this battle in the long run.

Don't get me wrong, I not supporting the BA in not keeping channels navigable, but I have moved my boat twice because the private marinas I was in meant I bottomed out at low water and it wasn't convenient for me (and the current moorings are dearer). If I had waited for them to dredge my old moorings I may have got very old!!

I can only assume they spend their money on dredging the main channels etc and going down all the smaller Dykes maybe isn't feasible. I am sure there are others in the same situation. Sure they could use the money spent on other advertising ventures or legal cases, but I doubt it would end up with every conceivable Dyke being dredged each year.

I have been waiting for 14 yrs for the local council to resurface the road I live down, but it's not on their important list. They do all the others around us and throw that pointless stone stuff that throws up on the main road each year, but we aren't important. So it's not just the BA that don't listen  

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

 

As you know, we have a sailing boat in Catfield Dyke which we can't get out due to shallow water. Two seasons now it's been stuck there, we can't use it and we can't sell it because the new owners would have the same problem.

But not to worry BA are "aware of the issue" and will review it in the future. 

 

I have just Googled Catfield, and sure enough the road which crosses the end of the dyke is called Staithe Rd (and this is not the same Staithe Rd as at the Pleasure Boat).

At risk of repeating myself from other threads, check to see whether Catfield Staithe still has legal status with the parish council. If it does the BA is legally obliged to keep it navigable. And that means, in principle, for trading wherries!

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

I have just Googled Catfield, and sure enough the road which crosses the end of the dyke is called Staithe Rd (and this is not the same Staithe Rd as at the Pleasure Boat).

At risk of repeating myself from other threads, check to see whether Catfield Staithe still has legal status with the parish council. If it does the BA is legally obliged to keep it navigable. And that means, in principle, for trading wherries!

Wherries, which, when laden, drew six feet. Regretfully meeting their obligations in regard to boats is blatantly not high on the Authority's list of priorities. 

Are you paying a toll for a boat that you can't use? Remember that near 50% of your toll goes elsewhere and not go towards maintaining the navigation. In the meantime those of you mooring in Catfield dyke could lobby both the Parish Council and the NSBA.

[JanetAnne]

We have a nice safe secure mooring that we like. It is paid for a year in advance and committed to well ahead of our relaunch date and now we have to move and pay again because BA are failing in their duty to maintain navigation? Grrr!!!! Anyway its up for sale! At the point the very boats designed and built for the broads almost 100 years ago no longer fit its time to move on.

Look at the data in Peters link. The AVERAGE depth of Hickling is now 0.6m. Thats the average of the whole broad not the shallow bits. The deepest was just 5ft. The deepest....

We have paid a toll to use the whole system not just the dyke. I did offer to pay for the dyke pro rata but was warned that I would be prosecuted if less than 100% due toll was paid. Fortunately the BA launch draws just enough to still get up the dyke and enforce this!

I have also asked for a definition of what 'maintain navigation' actually means. I believe that if you can canoe over the water navigation is maintained but cant get BA to put their definition of 'maintain navigation' in writing to me.

But hear this, It will not be long now before you will no longer have to worry about getting under 'that bridge' because you'll be running aground long before you ever reach the closed down shell of the Pleasure Boat Inn sadly lost to us boaters when the custom dried up along with the broad it stood on. Little by little boating on the broads seems to be getting harder and harder.

[marshman]

JM - you are being ingenuous again!! Are you saying the 25' wherries servicing the marl pit at Little Switzerland drew 6'? You know as well as I that there were wherries of differing sizes and so you choose the deepest draught wherries to make your point? Why not the shallowest ones??

And I think that that map shows the opposite - what a large area is still open water and available to sail in! There are of course 100's of yachts competing for that space - not! There is still a very large area showing a depth over the plants of 1.25m or 4' in my money and that varies according to the weather!! Is that not better than the narrow channel kept open in the 60's - now weed was bad then!! And JA - for what its worth I think your prophesy about access above Potter is just scaremongering. 

You cannot have cleaner water and no weed - one leads to the other! And you will not need telling that there are many factors affecting weed growth and the type of weed "underfoot" varies enormously from year to year.

And Poppy you know as well as I that the water temperature drops well below 8c in the winter - they managed last year to complete the dredging towards the Pleasure Boat with that restriction - why not this??

This is not at all in defence of the BA but many of you are flying kites in this thread!! However I am sure you will all now proceed to beat me up for my comments but in reality all I am trying is to just trying to balance the thread a little!!!

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, JanetAnne said:

But hear this, It will not be long now before you will no longer have to worry about getting under 'that bridge' because you'll be running aground long before you ever reach the closed down shell of the Pleasure Boat Inn sadly lost to us boaters when the custom dried up along with the broad it stood on. Little by little boating on the broads seems to be getting harder and harder.

Isn't that precisely what the NWT along wit Natural England are wanting to happen?

[Poppy]

2 minutes ago, marshman said:

JM - you are being ingenuous again!! Are you saying the 25' wherries servicing the marl pit at Little Switzerland drew 6'? You know as well as I that there were wherries of differing sizes and so you choose the deepest draught wherries to make your point? Why not the shallowest ones??

And I think that that map shows the opposite - what a large area is still open water and available to sail in! There are of course 100's of yachts competing for that space - not! There is still a very large area showing a depth over the plants of 1.25m or 4' in my money and that varies according to the weather!! Is that not better than the narrow channel kept open in the 60's - now weed was bad then!! And JA - for what its worth I think your prophesy about access above Potter is just scaremongering. 

You cannot have cleaner water and no weed - one leads to the other! And you will not need telling that there are many factors affecting weed growth and the type of weed "underfoot" varies enormously from year to year.

And Poppy you know as well as I that the water temperature drops well below 8c in the winter - they managed last year to complete the dredging towards the Pleasure Boat with that restriction - why not this??

This is not at all in defence of the BA but many of you are flying kites in this thread!! However I am sure you will all now proceed to beat me up for my comments but in reality all I am trying is to just trying to balance the thread a little!!!

And I  pointed out that the study and thus the map dated from mid June, and what a miserable period of weather that ended!  The weed growth since then has been prolific!  On Barton the margins of Limekiln Dyke and Turkey Broad have shown a huge surge since the warm weather earlier in July.

Are you about to tell me that weather has no impact on weed growth ?

[Baitrunner]

27 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Isn't that precisely what the NWT along wit Natural England are wanting to happen?

Problem is if they want it to be natural they will have to fill it in and then were will the wildlife go?

At the end of the day they are man made so lets keep them for us (and maybe a few little animal thingies). I am sure there is a happy medium? Now lets get that dredger out once the water chills down.

[JawsOrca]

What happens to lakes if motor boats don't use lakes/Broads?? Don't they silt up and dry up?? 

Sounds to me hickling is in trouble and needs rescuing!!.. I think it's time to liberate above the bridge.. Let's knock it down and remove all speed limits on hickling, that will soon scare off the wildlife, kill the reeds and dredge the broad... 

[Timbo]

21 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

What happens to lakes if motor boats don't use lakes/Broads?? Don't they silt up and dry up?? 

Sounds to me hickling is in trouble and needs rescuing!!.. I think it's time to liberate above the bridge.. Let's knock it down and remove all speed limits on hickling, that will soon scare off the wildlife, kill the reeds and dredge the broad... 

I worked out many years ago that if I you want to turn glorious countryside enjoyed by all into a desolate wasteland devoid of wildlife hand it over to Natural England...better still the RSPB who will sell it off for housing. Nature conservationists just do not appreciate or understand land management.

[JanetAnne]

Marshman, I love the cleaner water and the weed. It's just a shame the base the weed is rooted into had been allowed to get so close to the surface!

Elsewhere on the network we have weed, reed, marsh marigold in abundance and water lilies a plenty yet we can pass over the same without disturbing the base or stirring up silt.

And yes, I am sure my prophecy about the Pleasure Boat Inn is pure scaremongering yet I already can't get to it?

Anybody want to sign a petition? Lol

[JennyMorgan]

Marshman, if 6' draft wherries could go up a dyke then so could 3' draft ones. Only dredge for 3' ones then 6' ones would be excluded, obvious really.

[marshman]

Then there must have been plenty of dykes not accessible to the 6' draught wherries!!

[Vaughan]

54 minutes ago, marshman said:

 

Then there must have been plenty of dykes not accessible to the 6' draught wherries!!

 

Come on Marshman, you are "splitting wherries".

You, Peter and I are three among those on this forum who know very well what wherries are all about. What I am talking about is historic trade. In the old days a village like Catfield could only trade by water, as roads were almost impassable and very insecure from robbers, and the railways had not yet arrived. So the public staithe and its navigation were the arteries of trade, both in and out of the village.

So is this important now? Of course it is! We must hang on to these ancient legal rights in order to maintain what is left of an area that can only survive as we know it, if we continue to use it for that purpose - to navigate!

We are threatened by the very Authority that purports to serve us, but has a nightmare vision of allowing the whole place to become some "blasted heath" like Exmoor, which is preserved in its "natural" beauty but is actually a large expanse of useless and mostly inaccessible boggy moorland. I speak as someone who has tromped for miles across its bleak and un-inviting expanses in Army boots.

If we want navigation we must fight for it, and the law of public staithes is there for us to use, if we care to push, to enforce it.