Residential Moorings

[rightsaidfred]

Given the amount of contention that exists around this topic I have tried to sit back and take an objective view and in doing so have come up with the following question.

Looking at DP27 Residential moorings most if not all the requirements could be met by the exhire yards, therefore why is it that none of these that I am aware of have applied for residential consent, the only one that has to my knowledge WRC does I believe still have vacancy`s, therefore is there an actual rather than theoretical demand on the broads for livaboard moorings or would they sooner live for free.

Fred

[LondonRascal]

I think you can look at matters from two sides, let us say I was a large Marina and I decided to allocate a third of the mooring space to permanent residential moorings and got permission for this to happen from the relevant authorities. You then effectively become a Landlord for people who while may pay a premium to be moored there on a residential basis, you also have perhaps the issues of your new residents on site.

But there are likewise a number of people who have enough money to buy a small and rather dilapidated boat, but do not have the money (or perhaps wish) to have the boat moored in a big 'plastic boat park' that Marina's are. They prefer the freedom of the waterways.  I think this would be far easier to deal with if there was more facilities for people who choose this lifestyle, but water points are few and far between, rubbish disposal points are not exactly prevalent and if people use these should they pay? Should the cost of such be taken out of the money they pay for their Toll?

It raises more questions than answers - but I think there is room to have moorings that are twofold.  Firstly riverside moorings, very basic, and clearly marked for residential boaters - much like a campsite if you will, somewhere for water, and rubbish - perhaps an electric post or two. Maybe allow longer term moorings - 2 - 4weeks at a pop at such locations before being able to move on.

Secondly for those who wish formal marina based residential moorings - but with a wide range on on site facilities to make residents lives just that bit easier. You could have proper post office boxes for each berth holder for mail, a laundry, toilet and showers and you might smile - but a few bikes to hire and pop out to the local area/town.

Certainly living on a boat is not for everyone, but if you are on the Canals and yo live onboard - even if you do not cruise and sit in a Marina, you are accepted, looked after far more than it seems one is on the Broads.

[rightsaidfred]

Robin

Just for clarity as everything is open to debate my thoughts were more on some of the smaller yards in particular around Brundall that could easily be converted to create a community similar to the one at Thorpe Green.

Fred

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Given the amount of contention that exists around this topic I have tried to sit back and take an objective view and in doing so have come up with the following question.

Looking at DP27 Residential moorings most if not all the requirements could be met by the exhire yards, therefore why is it that none of these that I am aware of have applied for residential consent, the only one that has to my knowledge WRC does I believe still have vacancy`s, therefore is there an actual rather than theoretical demand on the broads for livaboard moorings or would they sooner live for free.

Fred

Fred for free are you serious obviously you haven't seen my reply on a different thread , if anyone of the yards that I know have residents in put their head above the parapet then BA would **** them down , the problem is not with space its with protocol and attitudes towards planning for residential boats , and that lies in the hands of the planning authorities etc , and they are the part of the system that is not willing to budge , there are many ways they could make things easier n they choose not to so I'm sorry but you can hardly blame people on the river that might not be able to afford the costs but on the other hand might be able to but so few marinas can accommodate them legally now that is down to BA no one else not everyone wants to live at WRC  yet there are countless places that could if they were allowed to accept those who choose to live afloat .

 

[ChrisB]

The problem as explained to me by a marina owner (actually more than one) is the great difference between seagoing livaboards and those on inland waterways. He welcomed the seagoing as their boats were always kept in readiness for passage and were in the main "shipshape".

On the other hand he would not have residential moorings inland and got rid of his moorings in this category, mostly by natural wastage. ( he got a lot of stick for this in various waterway mags). His explanation to me was that most of them were looking for a cheap way of living but boats can seldom accommodate all that folk wanted. Gear would get stowed to capacity on the coach roof, when full the overload would spill onto the bank. Some without transport would store coal, and wood on the bank plus old batteries etc that they were unable to take to the dump. His staff would have to mow round the  stuff and soon it looked a mess. Then the complaints form other people who wanted their moorings to look smart would start. The last straw was when his offices were visited by officials from the DWP trying to trace individuals. 

Not saying what is right or wrong just one side of the story.

[rightsaidfred]

Ricardo

I am perfectly serious and yes I did see your post, I am asking a question not being provocative, yours is one opinion others may have different ones, as for blaming the BA they may or may not be the problem but if nobody asks  how do we know they will refuse, if an application meets the criteria they would have a hard job refusing.

Fred

[grendel]

As a minimum, liveaboard moorings would require access by road, or else how would the liveaboards go about their daily lives- ie going to work, shopping school etc. It would be no use whatever tucking them away in some long forgotten part of the system miles from any services. yes it is a lifestyle choice for some, for others economics comes into it as the only affordable way to have a home, and they will be the ones with jobs and a need to get to them.

[rightsaidfred]

Grendel

That's why some of the smaller yards at Brundall came to mind, good road access plus rail and local services plus full facilities available.

Fred

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

The problem as explained to me by a marina owner (actually more than one) is the great difference between seagoing livaboards and those on inland waterways. He welcomed the seagoing as their boats were always kept in readiness for passage and were in the main "shipshape".

On the other hand he would not have residential moorings inland and got rid of his moorings in this category, mostly by natural wastage. ( he got a lot of stick for this in various waterway mags). His explanation to me was that most of them were looking for a cheap way of living but boats can seldom accommodate all that folk wanted. Gear would get stowed to capacity on the coach roof, when full the overload would spill onto the bank. Some without transport would store coal, and wood on the bank plus old batteries etc that they were unable to take to the dump. His staff would have to mow round the  stuff and soon it looked a mess. Then the complaints form other people who wanted their moorings to look smart would start. The last straw was when his offices were visited by officials from the DWP trying to trace individuals. 

Not saying what is right or wrong just one side of the story.

And there's the other side of the coin of those that are inland and ply by the rules , my boat carry's 200 kg of coal n wood in winter n not any of that is on display , aside from a chimney no one would know I lived onboard n that's the difference , some abuse things I accept that but not everyone is like that , iv even this afternoon in Norwich seen someone nailing a rope n tyre to a quay n I'm not joking it happens n its council owned , a bit further down the river you see someone who has created a for want of a better word garden complete with everything that won't fit on his boat ever at the side of the boat , that's council land too , yes I agree the are those that take the Mick but some don't n to tar everyone with the same brush is wrong .

Its just like bikers get treat or did do , long hair n a bike and your a lowlife , despite the fact that you do ride outs for charity and support the homeless n deliver toys to children's hospitals all of which iv done when I rode a bike n only to be treat like a second class citizen by certain people .

The point is not all are the same .

I'm not singling you out Chris B  I'm merely redacting to the thread .

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Grendel

That's why some of the smaller yards at Brundall came to mind, good road access plus rail and local services plus full facilities available.

Fred

Incidentally Fred I lived in a marina in brundall for a while and I left because I wanted to in case anyone is thinking other wise , and your right its perfect but for what surrounds it , expensive housing n those owners will be up in arm that I do know .

[JawsOrca]

Guys, please keep it cool.. The residential boaters always kicks up a heated debate.. 

I do think the BA have quite understood the potential.

Apart from our pesky sky disc you wouldn't tell we are dirty liveaboards.. the boat like many others around here look like posh gym palaces and many take huge care and spend an insane amount of money on them.. I live in a residential marina where we pay full council tax etc.. trust me I don't put rubbish all over the river banks, and although we first moved afloat due to struggles getting a mortgage we now chose to do so mainly because the peace quiet and community spirit we have.. it's not cheap though I assure you!

The BA are adding restrictions (time limits on the berths) on the current residential berths due to to whatever reasons so effectively removing the use (as you can't expect people to just move away like that).. PR exercise is all it is. One day...

[rightsaidfred]

I am not being critical of any ones lifestyle or trying to dictate how they live so there is no need for anyone to go ultra defensive, my question is aimed at why yard owners with the potential for a fixed income with little outlay and a business opportunity that should be largely self managed havn`t pursued the option.

Fred

[JawsOrca]

Because Fred.. The BA and local authorities won't permit planning permission of which is needed to make residential moorings (You have to do a change of use). Where the BA have done they have put a silly short term restriction on it  effectively making it pointless as you can't easily find moorings for large residential boats.  Sadly the local authorities (and BA) for some reason can't see where it does work well and were it benefits the local community.. It is sadly very political and a tad frustrating when it's easy solution to a housing market problem which isn't going to go away anytime soon.  Therefore there is little point for any marina owners to even consider bothering with the idea.

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Fred,

I think you will find that the WRC is the only official marina with residential status, it is my understanding that they had to jump through many hoops to achieve this status and it does have a cut off date attached so it will never be permanent.

I think Jenner's Basin was a missed opportunity for the Broads Authority it could have been made to work with restrictions on the condition of the boats and the site. The gravel pits at Whitingham would have made better use as marinas rather than the use they currently have, which appears to be little more than somewhere to walk dogs.

Regards

Alan

[rightsaidfred]

Thanks Guys although I don't understand all the politics involved it seems strange as on my local river there are numerous Residential moorings some of which go back to the 1960s if not earlier.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

Some liveaboards do have jobs, possibly taking home under £300.00 per week, £15k per year. Spending £2k a year on a mooring must have limited appeal! 

As far as the WRC is concerned, it's out in the back of beyond with no buses or convenient jobs just up the road.

[dnks34]

Reaching the WRC by road is not pleasant at all, one of the reasons we gave up mooring there.

The Broads should not end up as the place people who cant afford to live on land have to live.  I think the BA should prevent this at all costs, there is a welfare system that should be supporting those people.

But being a liveaboard by choice in properly organised facilities is something I would welcome. 

[rightsaidfred]

Hi Alan

Having thought about it given the location and nature of the site I can understand the problems with WRC however looking at ready made self contained sites like ex hireyards and looking at DP27 again I would have thought the potential was there.

JM

I am not suggesting this is the answer for everyone I have just picked up on the statement we keep hearing that there are no facilities for those that want them and looking at the options, if we accept that it is not the BA`s responsibility to provide these moorings then we need to consider the commercial options available.

Fred

[grendel]

Its already too late fo fight that, I know people that live in vans (actually I now quite a large group of them) some by choice, others because the system has failed them and its all they can do.

[Islander]

Cor, I go away for 5mins and suddenly we have a debate about residential mooring.

Ok, so here we go. There is a yard in Wroxam which after an appeal to a planning inspector gain residential status when the inspector stated that it was not possible to discriminate the between boats being lived on and others used as holiday accommodation. Before you ask I cannot remember the name of the yard but it does contain house boats( big square things). Brundal riverside and the other side of the road to Brundal bay marina has numerous residential boats including an ex member of the navigation committee.

Today, we have been confirmed, the east end of the island has residential status from the head of planning and development, Cally Smith, as we are past the 10yr point of enforcement. We will not get planning permission or a certificate of lawful use as the planning regulations have changed in the past few years which we can not now comply with being an island. Ruth and I will have been here for 13 yrs come August bank holiday. This information was made available only after a FOI request through the local council who held onto it until after the recent AGM where Thorpe island was a major subject on the agenda.

Now Ruth and I know we can stay we will invest more in our mooring space. We have already spent several hundred pounds on having dangerous trees removed and reduced, with BA consent, even though this should be our landlords responsibility.

The Brundal area, with its many boatyards, has several 'live aboards' in most yards. Most keep their heads down for fear of being evicted ( and having nowhere to go). The yards won't apply for residential status as most have made changes without planning permission and don't want the BA sniffing around their yards. Almost all the yards in Brundal would be past the 10yr rule of established use. I'm sure ther must be other yards around the broads that could use the established use rule but seem to prefer to hold their few 'liveaboards' by the s...t and c.....s with no contract.

James Knight at Waveney River Centre is at present proving how difficult it is to get planning permission for residential mooring but the restrictions and conditions are almost insurmountable. James and I have been in contact but with only temporary status available the offer was not acceptable. We will now be staying at Thorpe.

I think I have said enough for the moment but I will say I will not be forced into a marina where when I open the curtains my neighbour is only a couple of fenders away nor would I accept living in a tower block of flats.

I have no intention of going 'quietly into the night' and will live my life afloat for as long as I am able.

I'm going to finish my bottle of wine now so anything from this point is not necessarily the opinion of the management.

Colin

Edited May 10, 2017 by Islander
Too many typos and the wine is calling. Please correct it yourselve.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Islander said:

Cor, I go away for 5mins and suddenly we have a debate about residential mooring.

Ok, so here we go. There is a yard in Wroxam which after an appeal to a planning inspector gain residential status when the inspector stated that it was not possible to discriminate the between boats being lived on and others used as holiday accommodation. Before you ask I cannot remember the name of the yard but it does contain house boats( big square things). Brundal riverside and the other side of the road to Brundal bay marina has numerous residential boats including an ex member of the navigation committee.

Today, we have been confirmed, the east end of the island has residential status from the head of planning and development, Cally Smith, as we are past the 10yr point of enforcement. We will not get planning permission or a certificate of lawful use as the planning regulations have changed in the past few years which we can not now comply with being an island. Ruth and I will have been here for 13 yrs come August bank holiday. This information was made available only after a FOI request through the local council who held onto it until after the recent AGM where Thorpe island was a major subject on the agenda.

Now Ruth and I know we can stay we will invest more in our mooring space. We have already spent several hundred pounds on having dangerous trees removed and reduced, with BA consent, even though this should be our landlords responsibility.

The Brundal area, with its many boatyards, has several 'live aboards' in most yards. Most keep their heads down for fear of being evicted ( and having nowhere to go). The yards won't apply for residential status as most have made changes without planning permission and don't want the BA sniffing around their yards. Almost all the yards in Brundal would be past the 10yr rule of established use. I'm sure ther must be other yards around the broads that could use the established use rule but seem to prefer to hold their few 'liveaboards' by the s...t and c.....s with no contract.

James Knight at Waveney River Centre is at present proving how difficult it is to get planning permission for residential mooring but the restrictions and conditions are almost insurmountable. James and I have been in contact but with only temporary status available the offer was not acceptable. We will now be staying at Thorpe.

I think I have said enough for the moment but I will say I will not be forced into a marina where when I open the curtains my neighbour is only a couple of fenders away nor would I accept living in a tower block of flats.

I have no intention of going 'quietly into the night' and will live my life afloat for as long as I am able.

I'm going to finish my bottle of wine now so anything from this point is not necessarily the opinion of the management.

Colin

Well congratulations Colin n Ruth , that news has made my day , I agree with every word you said  especially about living in a marina in brundall I did that n it wasn't easy .

Enjoy your wine n celebrate 

[rightsaidfred]

Hi Colin

Thanks for a very informative piece, I am still no nearer understanding the answer but at least I have more idea of why it might not be such an attractive proposition.

Fred

 

[Islander]

Fred, all I can say is that living on a boat is not for everyone. It is a totally different lifestyle and as varied as you want it to be. Constant cruiseing or permanent boatyard mooring are as far apart as living life on the road or staying in a caravan park. Having said that unless you try it you will never know. We came to Norfolk to buy a boat to take back to the Cambridge area with the intention of only staying for a few months. We have been here for 17yrs and will be staying. We have had a major change in our lives and income and are far happier out of the rat race. I know our life would not suit everyone but having been on both sides I'm glad we made the decision. Now when I getup in the morning and open the curtains I'm treated with wild life on both sides of the boat and we sit with a cup of tea and decide how to spend the day ( making an income that is). Far better than spending 12 or14 hours working in my basement workshop. We did a calculation many years back and found we only started to earn money for ourselves on Friday afternoon. Being self employed meant any holidays or sickness took weeks to get back to standing still.

We decided that we were not going to end our lives sat in a nursing home with a blanket over our knees wishing we had done things. I do have a few things still on the bucket list.

Colin

[Baitrunner]

If your going to do it though, the programme on More 4 right now on floating homes is something else. 

Deep pockets required as well. 

That 70ft canal boat would require an intercom to give your crew instructions up front!!! Oh and a water hook up to fill that bath up. 

[Islander]

We are watching.

C.