Pye’s Mill

[Paladin]

1 minute ago, MauriceMynah said:

You're bouncing about a bit here Pally, but basically I have as much choice in how much I pay for tolls as you do, but as the BA are not responsible for rubbish collection, and not likely to become so, the question is somewhat academic. (as most of this thread is.)

In short no I would not be happy, but then again I never am when the tolls go up... for any reason.

I'm not bouncing about, just bringing the discussion back to the topic. Why do you think the tolls won't go up to pay for the collection and disposal of boat waste? It has been considered by the BA as a possible solution, and the idea has been rejected...for now.

[JennyMorgan]

The simple answer is that the Broads Authority is not duty bound to provide rubbish collection and nor should it. My personal feeling is that that responsibility should be that of the businesses who's customers create the problem. I already pay for my rubbish disposal via my rates, why should I then pay a second time via my toll? 

[Wussername]

33 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

The simple answer is that the Broads Authority is not duty bound to provide rubbish collection and nor should it. My personal feeling is that that responsibility should be that of the businesses who's customers create the problem. I already pay for my rubbish disposal via my rates, why should I then pay a second time via my toll? 

The BA as self proclaimed custodians of the Broads have a degree of responsibility. 

As I have mentioned before the hire fleet is a shadow of its former self. It is the private sector with over 3000 craft who have to share the burden.

Unless of course Waveny District Council would like to send over a dollop to the poor and distressed of Broadland District Council.

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, Wussername said:

will Does the owner pay for waste collection?

Andrew

 

Yes they do but not as part of their business rates they pay on a volume basis, they pay business rates of which they will pass  on

a proportion  to their moorers.

Fred

[Paladin]

18 minutes ago, Wussername said:

The BA as self proclaimed custodians of the Broads have a degree of responsibility. 

As I have mentioned before the hire fleet is a shadow of its former self. It is the private sector with over 3000 craft who have to share the burden.

You jest, course. The BA was appointed 'custodians' by the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988, so hardly 'self proclaimed'.

The waste produced by the 'over 3000' private craft is household waste, for the collection and disposal of which there is no charge. So why should any extra burden be placed on the private owners? The whole drive of the EU Directive behind all this is 'the polluter pays'. Private owners have already paid for their household waste to be dealt with.

[Wussername]

14 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Yes they do but not as part of their business rates they pay on a volume basis, they pay business rates of which they will pass  on

a proportion  to their moorers.

Fred

Hi Fred

But do they all provide a waste disposal service

Andrew

[MauriceMynah]

11 minutes ago, Paladin said:

The whole drive of the EU Directive behind all this is 'the polluter pays'. Private owners have already paid for their household waste to be dealt with.

Are you saying that it was the EU who were responsible for the re-classification and not the relevant councils?

[Wussername]

1 minute ago, Paladin said:

You jest, course. The BA was appointed 'custodians' by the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988, so hardly 'self proclaimed'.

The waste produced by the 'over 3000' private craft is household waste, for the collection and disposal of which there is no charge. So why should any extra burden be placed on the private owners? The whole drive of the EU Directive behind all this is 'the polluter pays'. Private owners have already paid for their household waste to be dealt with.

So be it if they have been appointed by the Act of 1988. Matters not in the scheme of things.

It is not household waste. It is not domestic waste it is boat waste. So why should any extra burden be placed on the private owners?

It is not a burden it is a responsibility. Why should I pay for it.

The whole drive of the EU Directive behind all this is 'the polluter pays'

Yes. I agree with that.

Private owners have already paid for their household waste to be dealt with.

Household waste. Good for them. So do I. What about their boat waste? Who should pay for that?

Andrew

[dnks34]

I think the BA should be responsible for Broads waste generated by use of the rivers and I think its ridiculous they havent stepped up to the plate.  

They involve themselves in everything else dont they...

 

[JennyMorgan]

12 minutes ago, Wussername said:

What about their boat waste? Who should pay for that?

Andrew

There lies the problem and perhaps a visitor tax should pay for that? Okay, a lead balloon option but is there a better, more fair way?

[marshman]

Great - you pay the extra costs!  Unnecessary ones  as it is the councils legal responsibility to clear domestic waste!

Bit like roads really- some people will not go on the toll roads if they have to pay and indeed why should they??

You are right the BA do get involved in any number of things but rubbish? Can you guess what uptick in tolls would be necessary? I suppose next someone will suggest that the BA pay for flood prevention just because boaters use the rivers???

[Paladin]

6 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Are you saying that it was the EU who were responsible for the re-classification and not the relevant councils?

This subject has been thoroughly discussed and I thought that most forum members would know the story by now.

As a result of the EU Directive 2008/98/EC on waste (The Waste Framework Directive), the British Government introduced the Controlled Waste Regulations 2012. As far as boaters are concerned, the impact was to introduce an exception to the rule that boat waste is classified as 'household waste'. The exception was as I posted earlier today.

Norfolk County Council (the waste disposal authority) saw this as a means of transferring the cost of disposal of the boat waste (from boat bins, not the hire yards) to the waste collection authorities (the district councils). They claimed that it was not possible to identify which waste was from private boats and which was from hire boats, so they would treat it all as being from hire boats (i.e. as commercial waste) and would then charge the district councils for the disposal. They could, have course, have said that they would treat all the waste as household waste, but that wouldn't have save them any money. The response of the district councils was simply to remove the boat bins.

 

[Wussername]

Just now, marshman said:

Great - you pay the extra costs!  Unnecessary ones  as it is the councils legal responsibility to clear domestic waste!

Bit like roads really- some people will not go on the toll roads if they have to pay and indeed why should they??

You are right the BA do get involved in any number of things but rubbish? Can you guess what uptick in tolls would be necessary? I suppose next someone will suggest that the BA pay for flood prevention just because boaters use the rivers???

Great - you pay the extra costs!  Unnecessary ones  as it is the councils legal responsibility to clear domestic waste!

It is boat waste. Domestic waste comes from domestic property....houses.

[Paladin]

14 minutes ago, Wussername said:

So be it if they have been appointed by the Act of 1988. Matters not in the scheme of things.

It is not household waste. It is not domestic waste it is boat waste. So why should any extra burden be placed on the private owners?

It is not a burden it is a responsibility. Why should I pay for it.

The whole drive of the EU Directive behind all this is 'the polluter pays'

Yes. I agree with that.

Private owners have already paid for their household waste to be dealt with.

Household waste. Good for them. So do I. What about their boat waste? Who should pay for that?

Andrew

According to the Controlled Waste Regulations 2012, there is no such thing as boat waste. It's either household waste or commercial waste. Waste produced at a private boat is clasified as 'household waste', exactly the same as waste produced at a private house

[dnks34]

3 minutes ago, marshman said:

Great - you pay the extra costs!  Unnecessary ones  as it is the councils legal responsibility to clear domestic waste!

Bit like roads really- some people will not go on the toll roads if they have to pay and indeed why should they??

You are right the BA do get involved in any number of things but rubbish? Can you guess what uptick in tolls would be necessary? I suppose next someone will suggest that the BA pay for flood prevention just because boaters use the rivers???

It wouldnt make any difference as they will just keep putting the Toll up anyway.

Its not rocket science, the rubbish needs to be taken care of.

If between the BA and the local councils they cant pull their fingers out and get the job done then they are not going to attract praise from me.   

[Paladin]

No-one seems to be pointing the finger at the real 'culprit' - Norfolk County Council.

[grendel]

which was why I suggested a reduced rate for the boat waste as it is part household, part commercial, this is the only solution I see as being acceptable for all parties concerned ( or should I say least unacceptable) as it makes allowance for some of the waste being household.

 

[marshman]

Not sure I follow the logic that private waste, from private boats, can by any stretch of the imagination be classed as commercial - unless an overly compensated councillor from N C C says it is, I suppose!!!

Its like playing football against the council - they will always try and win as they feel they can move the goal posts!!

P.S. Don't even try to provide more opportunities for them to increase the toll. As Pally rightly says it is NCC and their councillors, NOT the BA

[MauriceMynah]

10 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

1. Find out who changed the classification from domestic to commercial.

2. Find out why  it was done.

3. Take it from there !!!!!!!!!

So Pally, If I have this right the answer to "1" is Norfolk County Council, the answer to "2" is Because the EU directive gave them the opportunity to do so. Is that correct?

[SteveO]

Some local councils have made it a made a major industry to liberally interpret the EU waste regulations in order ostensibly to save a few thousand pounds,  regardless of whether what they are doing is legal or makes economic sense when viewed as part of the bigger picture.  We have the ridiculous situation of councils paying millions to attract tourists with one hand whilst p*ssing them off with the other by refusing to collect their waste.  Our daughter lives near Reading and was able for years  to use the waste disposal facilities in the town. Now she has been told that because she lives the wrong side of a county boundary, she has to take her rubbish to Newbury, a round trip of 30 miles. Are people caught in the same situation doing this? No, they are dumping their waste in woodland or by the roadside when no-one is looking, from where it has to be collected at great cost by Reading and the other local councils.

Suggesting that the Broads Authority (and therefore private boaters) should pick up the tab for domestic waste collection is circumventing the issue. Local authorities should be made to fulfil their statutory responsibilities - by central government if necessary.  

[Wussername]

What about the toilet pump out.

We could have the commercial pump out or the private pump out.

A private boat arrives for a pump out.

That will be £18.00 please.

Er! No. I'm private. These are private poops. I have already paid for water and sewage on my domestic tariff. So I am entitled to a free pump out.Already paid for me old mate. Charge it to the local council.

8 minutes ago, Paladin said:

According to the Controlled Waste Regulations 2012, there is no such thing as boat waste. It's either household waste or commercial waste. Waste produced at a private boat is clasified as 'household waste', exactly the same as waste produced at a private house

According to the Controlled Waste Regulations 2012, there is no such thing as boat waste. It's either household waste or commercial waste. Waste produced at a private boat is clasified as 'household waste', exactly the same as waste produced at a private house

Then is it not an appropriate time to challenge the classification or will this saga continue ad infinitum.

[Paladin]

10 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

1. Find out who changed the classification from domestic to commercial.

2. Find out why  it was done.

3. Take it from there !!!!!!!!!

 

11 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

So Pally, If I have this right the answer to "1" is Norfolk County Council, the answer to "2" is Because the EU directive gave them the opportunity to do so. Is that correct?

MM, you haven't got it right.

1. The government introduced the 2012 regs., which left waste from private boats as 'household waste', but introduced the exception to that classification, making waste from hire boats 'commercial waste'.

2. It was done in order to comply with an EU Directive (see my previous post).

Norfolk County Council took advantage of the situation, to reduce their costs. The government was supposed to have reviewed the regulations by 2017, but I can find no reference to them having done so. The county council is unlikely to change their position, so the place to 'take it' is back to the government for review.

This document might make things clearer (or not) http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/434673/Controlled-Waste-Regulations-2012-Relating-to-Boat-Waste.pdf

[grendel]

looked at from a different point of view, boatyards have waste bins, these are commercial waste paid for by the boatyard, while a majority will be from their own hire boats, there must also be waste from other boatyards and indeed privateers.

As such they are paying for the disposal of their hirers waste, so part of the hire cost will be apportioned for those charges. now assuming all boatyards are paying rates for their waste disposal of their hirers (presumably by the numbers of boats they have on hire) then technically, the waste of hirers has been paid for already (wherever it is disposed of) only private boats dont have a dedicated place to dispose of their rubbish, but that is household waste not commercial. since the commercial waste is covered by the boatyards, on balance all that remains is household waste from private boats, which the council have a duty to remove.

if you allow that all boatyard waste (including some from private boats) is paid up commercial waste, then surely balanced out the  waste bins elsewhere are on the whole private boat waste (with the odd amount of hire boat waste)

by this argument bins not located at a boatyard should be treated as household waste. (as they should be just waste from private boats not based at a yard)

[ZimbiIV]

One way to start fighting this is to mention to all the local traders that unless waste disposal facilities for visitors is improved.

You will not be coming back!

Our local council accept visitors cause waste but the local shops rely on said visitors so the clean ups are done by the parish council, ignoring the great Northumberland dictatorship.

Keeping the local shops going appeases those that pay there wages.

paul

[ExSurveyor]

I take my private boat recycled waste home, my general rubbish I take to the nearby tip as the boatyard have yet to sort out a viable collection service.

Perhaps an increase in the hire boat multiplier should be considered as they will have less waste to dispose of from the yard if hirers are no longer returning it.