Theft From Boats At Oulton Broad

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

2 hours ago, smellyloo said:

Really, it's this sort of random comment that really riles me up. Is it any wonder that moral is low.

 

Perhaps if the police started to engage with the public, and work on what they find out, they may get more respect from them.  I always grew up believing an innocent law abiding citizen has nothing to fear from the police. Unfortunately through personal experience, i know that is now not to be the case. I don`t have any faith in them, i don`t trust them, and i don`t have any respect for them anymore. And guess what, i don`t care one bit who thinks bad of me for saying so,  you can slag me off if you want, but remember, i HAVE`NT made ANY personal insults to ANY individual members of this forum, i have just given my own personal view based on some facts and personal experiences, just a shame others on this forum are completely unable to afford ME the same respect?.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

One last point, if i get banned from this forum because of this, then i, and if those that have come out attacking me will be honest enough to admit, will know that i have hit a nerve.

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

Just to clarify 2 different roles.

PCSOs are paid and do not hold the full powers of a police Constable.

Special Constables are still there with full warranted police powers and unpaid.

Maybe the law has changed more recently, but when I was a Special for 7 years, in the 70s, I was unpaid, and not a qualified police officer. Although in uniform, we only had the power of arrest of a citizen.

This was in the days when Ludham, like most Norfolk villages, had its own police house, and its own village constable.

[Paladin]

As far as I am aware, Special Constables have always been warranted and, as such, have always had the same powers as regular officers. The only change in recent years has been to extend those powers throughout England and Wales. Previously, the powers could only be exercised in their own force area and immediately neighbouring areas.

[MauriceMynah]

3 hours ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

One last point, if i get banned from this forum because of this, then i, and if those that have come out attacking me will be honest enough to admit, will know that i have hit a nerve.

It is not that unusual for you and I to disagree but we always seem to respect each others views (even if you are so often wrong :) ) but I do agree with you here. The points you have made are highly contentious and we all have to be careful to keep from personal attack. It would be such attacks that would stop the debate and have people reprimanded by the mods, not the subject or your views on it.

Is this subject "political"? yes of course it is, but it is party politics (PP) that are not discussed (directly) on this forum and this isn't directly a PP issue in that all the political parties have  all in differing ways lead to this situation.

I can see the thread being locked if the PP line is crossed so I would suggest that either members wishing to add to this, do so with extreme caution, or that we all go down the agree to differ route.

[Simon]

I seem to recall thefts recently around Beccles, where those Charming upstanding members of the community caught? are these Oulton thefts being carried out by the same people?

What can we do to help, stop this sort of thing happening?

Neighbourhood  boat watch for marinas and moorings perhaps,  could this be something NBN get off the grouund,  a suspicious activity reporting system,  members feeding in to the group (the reported info hidden from all non admin team) with a single point of contact who liases with the local police. 

[MauriceMynah]

It already exists Simon, I think it's called "Boat watch" but I know little about it.

[annv]

Hi Vaughan My son is a special the rules have changed from your day/what hasn't, i wont cant say what but he now he carries pepper spray and tasers. and the others comments about how good/bad the police are i thought that that jewelry shop hold up by those Lithoanens they caught one at the airport same day two others on a train same day was pretty good and to be fair unless someone sees a outboard being taken or seen inside a cabin dismantling units with the tools that were on board, isn't easy if they had stopped him he wouldn't be carrying anything to implicate him as going tooled up , whare as someone phoning in that a incident is taking place with address will get a quick response. John 

[Simon]

36 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

It already exists Simon, I think it's called "Boat watch" but I know little about it.

I thought that was an a boat / ship tracking app,  AIS i guess,  but im not 100% sure.

[Vaughan]

15 minutes ago, annv said:

Hi Vaughan My son is a special the rules have changed from your day/what hasn't, i wont cant say what but he now he carries pepper spray and tasers. and the others comments about how good/bad the police are i thought that that jewelry shop hold up by those Lithoanens they caught one at the airport same day two others on a train same day was pretty good and to be fair unless someone sees a outboard being taken or seen inside a cabin dismantling units with the tools that were on board, isn't easy if they had stopped him he wouldn't be carrying anything to implicate him as going tooled up , whare as someone phoning in that a incident is taking place with address will get a quick response. John 

Thanks for that - I don't think Paladin seems to believe me!

The policeman in Ludham, Roger Hewitt, could have a special if he wanted one, and for some reason never explained, he chose me! I used to join him on patrol, usually in the evenings, two or three times a week and we had training evenings in the divisional station at North Walsham.

I was issued with a uniform, a peaked cap, a truncheon down my trousers (no comment please MM), a whistle and an official notebook. That was it. No mobiles, of course. Roger had a blue Mini van with a blue light, and a radio which only worked if you were on top of a hill. Not many hills on the Broads!

Because of my job, I got involved in quite a few incidents on the rivers such as injured boaters to be recovered by boat, running the fire brigade out on a cruiser to fight a fire in the reed beds, raising a few sunken boats and there was once an accidental shooting to deal with. One or two road accidents as well. Luckily I never had to arrest anyone, in Ludham!

Those were the days when the uniform was what commanded respect. Not sure it is as simple as that nowadays, unfortunately.

[annv]

Hi It's like streetwatch you have a coordinator for a marina or stretch of bank moorings who collects all the observations of fellow moorers and contacts the police with them, perhaps Wildfuze can comment on it John

[annv]

Hi Vaughan It's certainly changed they have radio, stab vests he evan gets a car   all though he's at the bottom  of the pecking order your man proberlyerly liked you as you wouldn't run away unlike one that my son had when they went to arrest a armed robber he got a mention in despatches or there similar reward, he mostly patrols out in the sticks John

Edited July 29, 2018 by annv
additian

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Thanks for that - I don't think Paladin seems to believe me!

 

5 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Maybe the law has changed more recently, but when I was a Special for 7 years, in the 70s, I was unpaid, and not a qualified police officer. Although in uniform, we only had the power of arrest of a citizen.

I have no reason to doubt that you were a special constable. I was simply correcting your assertion that a special constable only had the power of arrest of a citizen.

Police Act 1964, section 19

Jurisdiction of constables  –

(1) A member of a police force shall have all the powers of constables and privileges of a constable throughout England and Wales.

(2) A special constable shall have all the powers and privileges of a constable in the police area for which he is appointed.

(3) Without prejudice to subsection (2) above, a special constable appointed for any police area shall have all the powers and privileges of a constable -

(a) in the case of a police area not being a county borough, in any other police area which is contiguous to his own police area and in any police area being a county borough which is contiguous to any such other police area ;

(b) in the case of a police area being a county borough, in any other police area which is contiguous to the borough and in any area in which special constables appointed for any such other police area have those powers and privileges by virtue of paragraph (a) above.

That restriction to "his own police area etc" was abolished in 2007.

 

 

[Matt]

Hi Vaughan My son is a special the rules have changed from your day/what hasn't, i wont cant say what but he now he carries pepper spray and tasers. and the others comments about how good/bad the police are i thought that that jewelry shop hold up by those Lithoanens they caught one at the airport same day two others on a train same day was pretty good and to be fair unless someone sees a outboard being taken or seen inside a cabin dismantling units with the tools that were on board, isn't easy if they had stopped him he wouldn't be carrying anything to implicate him as going tooled up , whare as someone phoning in that a incident is taking place with address will get a quick response. John 

I hope he does not carry a Taser as ACPO do not allow Specials to carry one!

I believe there is a vote on whether to change that later this year.


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[Vaughan]

53 minutes ago, Paladin said:

I was simply correcting your assertion that a special constable only had the power of arrest of a citizen.

This is lovely, isn't it? Here I am, making a contribution to a thread, based on my own experience as a police officer and sure enough, Paladin appears from another place and starts quoting all sorts of law to allege that I didn't know what I was trained for. And we have to believe and respect this because Paladin is always right. But on this occasion he is wrong.

Special Constables in the North Walsham division of Norfolk Constabulary - there were about 15 of us - attended training sessions every week, which were mostly concerned with our rights of arrest as a citizen, as we had no right to arrest as a Police officer.

For instance, a citizen can arrest for causing a breach of the peace. But only a policeman can arrest for "conduct likely" to cause a breach of the peace. I could make an arrest for causing grievous bodily harm; but not for actual bodily harm. It is a minefield. Another one I remember was "causing an affray". I could arrest for it, but would have an awful job proving what I meant by it in court. So best not bother with that one.

These were holding charges, until you could hand it over to a policeman, who would then make other charges, for which he had the right but I did not. On top of this, if you got any of this procedure wrong then a lawyer would later throw the case out in court.

I have good memories of those days and I hope my service was of good use to the community. 

Paladin, you may be able to quote all sorts of letters of the law but you are wrong about the training and status of special constables in Norfolk in the 1970s. Full stop.

 

 

 

 

[Matt]

I think Specials were granted full powers of arrest in 1831 so perhaps it was the “Norfolk Way”

:-)


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[Paladin]

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

This is lovely, isn't it? Here I am, making a contribution to a thread, based on my own experience as a police officer and sure enough, Paladin appears from another place and starts quoting all sorts of law to allege that I didn't know what I was trained for. And we have to believe and respect this because Paladin is always right. But on this occasion he is wrong.

Special Constables in the North Walsham division of Norfolk Constabulary - there were about 15 of us - attended training sessions every week, which were mostly concerned with our rights of arrest as a citizen, as we had no right to arrest as a Police officer.

For instance, a citizen can arrest for causing a breach of the peace. But only a policeman can arrest for "conduct likely" to cause a breach of the peace. I could make an arrest for causing grievous bodily harm; but not for actual bodily harm. It is a minefield. Another one I remember was "causing an affray". I could arrest for it, but would have an awful job proving what I meant by it in court. So best not bother with that one.

These were holding charges, until you could hand it over to a policeman, who would then make other charges, for which he had the right but I did not. On top of this, if you got any of this procedure wrong then a lawyer would later throw the case out in court.

I have good memories of those days and I hope my service was of good use to the community. 

Paladin, you may be able to quote all sorts of letters of the law but you are wrong about the training and status of special constables in Norfolk in the 1970s. Full stop.

"Paladin appears from another place". Really? I have been a member of this forum for longer than I have been a member anywhere else. Over 10 years, actually. But does it actually matter?

I cannot comment on the local procedures, but, as Matt has confirmed, special constables have had the same powers as regular officers (certain bye law enforcement excepted) for donkey's years. That local commanders wouldn't let their special constables exercise those powers is another matter entirely, and begs the question 'Why not?' I can make an educated guess.

I have simply quoted a law that was relevant to the time period in question and which proves the point.

[Meantime]

Since the discussion appears to have entered a cul-de-sac only very loosely related to the original topic, perhaps now would be a good time to consider whether continuing the discussion in the morning, or by PM might be more fruitful? Before a citizens arrest by a mod takes place  

[Vaughan]

9 minutes ago, Paladin said:

That local commanders wouldn't let their special constables exercise those powers is another matter entirely, and begs the question 'Why not?' I can make an educated guess.

And how am I supposed to take that?

 

[grendel]

8 hours ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

One last point, if i get banned from this forum because of this, then i, and if those that have come out attacking me will be honest enough to admit, will know that i have hit a nerve.

so there is the quandry of the moderator, if we now ban you you have hit a nerve and we are in the wrong, if we dont ban you everyone will think we are going soft - much like your allegations about the police force. there are too many posts quoting other posts to hide them without totally destroying the continuity of the thread.

there have been enough accusations, counter accusations on this thread, so I am locking it before I have to ban the whole membership of the forum.