Some of the comments are a bit strong

[thirdmate]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/polic ... s_1_909210

[BuffaloBill]

Unfortunately I think the article was more or less spot on.

Talking to friends who also own boats on the Broads, we

all believe that the amount of drunken parties and roudyism

is getting more prevelent this last 2 or 3 years.

We witnessed what was a truely drunken 2 boat party of lads

at Stokesby 3 weeks ago that took at least 20mins to get

moored up. After the sound of cracking fibreglass, 2 boats

near to them untied and left despite the time getting on

for 20.00hrs. We were far enough away to be able to ignore

them but the volume of the radio and the shouting was not

easy to ignore never the less! We later came upon them at

Norwich YS were they had been warned by the HM about

their antics, and then again at Oulton Broad where they

moored outside the pub and were still at it. Then again as

we exited Breydon going up the Bure under the first bridge

where they were coming down towards us sideways! They

only just managed to get control and avoid hitting us right

under the bridge!! Then they headed for Breydon at full throttle.

And they were still drinking beer..This was the worst case we've

seen this year but I'm sure there were many others having seen

the crews going past with the beer cans lined up on the dash that

were not actually being consumed.

And not all lads either...

We have begun to wonder if it's worth all the hassle. It's not the

Broads as I knew it nor as I want it to be.

[Guest]

Whilst i'm sure the private owner would prefer "hire craft" to be curbed it has to be remembered that the facilities we all enjoy, including the very reasonable tolls, only exist because of the hire trade.

Perhaps it's inevitable that as we gain more experience of boat handling it appears that those skills displayed by novice skippers appears to getting worse?

re: boozing and cruising ....... i'm not convinced there is a problem. One of the joys of cruising the broads is that you can toodle along at 3 mph, much slower if wind assited, whilst supping an ale or glass of wine. Surely we don't need breathalisers etc. Let's just leave it. If you can swim in a straight line then you're OK to drive!!

[Guest]

re: boozing and cruising ....... i'm not convinced there is a problem.

I agree. The root of the problem is the selfish "Yobbo" attitude of an increasing number of hire boat crews.

They'd be just as repulsive even if they were cold sober. I've been lucky enough to have lived here for many years now, after hiring boats back to the seventies. The problem is getting worse, because that type of obnoxious person has become more common in Society today, everywhere, not just on the Broads.

It's not fair to make things more difficult for all male, (or all female) hirers, because most are considerate people who do not enjoy upsetting other people's holidays.

Black listing offenders is no deterrent (although it should be done as a matter of course anyway), because they would just move on to something else where they could show how stupid and selfish they are.

Stop the holiday, and reclaim the boat with no refund sounds right, but how many Yards do that, except under the most extreme circumstances ?

[Hylander]

Totally agree and how yards that do that would gain so much respect from the wider public both hirers and privateers. Why does it have to take a disaster to prompt the correct action. Just wonder which yards would put their heads up and show responsibility for the louts.

[Hockham Admiral]

You must also be most careful...

Last year, coming down The Yare in company with Tot Thyme, Barry remonstrated with such a lot who passed us with 'throttle to the firewall'........ later to be accosted by said morons in the pub we later stopped at.

Is it worth the hassle, or indeed the danger, to point out their stupidity?

[Soundings]

And there is the problem. Ranger activity across the system is limited and the boys on Broadsbeat are but a tiny unit (who work hard). There is therefore absolutely nothing to stop this minority from behaving in an antisocial way. And it is intentional in some (many) instances I am sure. When I see a boat with flags and hats I start to worry; when beer is also present then, well, panic starts to set in. Tie up at St Bennets's and you are likely to be washed up on the bank as craft speed past.

Something has to be done as, like our city centres at night, the Broads will become a no go zone run for the benefit of the minority.

[w44nty]

Cheap supermarket booze is the cause of a lot of this sort of behavior,you cannot afford to get drunk in the pubs it is too expensive,these people buy loads to take with them and drink all day long,thus becoming noisy and threatening towards others,sadly it is not just the broads it seems to be everywhere,camping and caravan sites suffer as well,what these morons do not realise is,whilst they are enjoying themselves they are upsetting other peoples holidays.

When I had my boat on the northern rivers this was a common occurence on a Fri/Sat night.

Like a lot of people I enjoy a drink,but I also know how to behave and respect others.

[Soundings]

I have never been an activist, preferring the quiet, leisurely life that is supposed to be the Broads. But is it not time to start voicing our concerns to the BA. I am sure there are enough instances that can be verified and used as examples. After all we pay our dues and are surely entitled to quiet enjoyment. And by "quiet" I do not mean stopping people having fun, but I do mean stopping people having fun to the extent that it impinges on the enjoyment of others. Mmmm...this all somewhat destroys the Magical Waterway tag line.

[Matt]

Time for some perspective:

I have just reviewed the crime statistics for Hoveton and I am pleased to announce for the 3 months to April recorded Anti Social Behaviour has fallen 42% against last year.

This would suggest to me that people are not reporting what they see. I dont believe that reporting it to the BA is enough I think any Anti Social Behaviour should be reported to the police via the non emergency number. Despite what you might hear Theresa May say about scrapping targets they are still alive and well and continually reporting crime is bad news for these targets.

In my spare time I am Special Constable and I can vouch that times are tough for the police with the cuts going on and a as a result patrols are targeted into the areas where there is a higher level of reported crime. If you want a police presence you need to report what you see.

For those of you that are lucky enough to live local make sure that you attend your local Neighbourhood Policing Team meetings, it is at these meetings that local priorities are set.

[Soundings]

Could we really expect a bigger Broadsbeat presence, when even Rangers appear to be at a premium? I do agree with reporting to the police but do not feel that the BA should be left out.

[andyg]

sadley i have to agree with most of whats been said here, i have had two trips this year to the broads and both have been bliyted by this kind of behaviour. the first was even before we had left the yard with a group of guys openly drinking large amounts of larger outside the recpetion of the boat yard,( loads of swearing water taking etc whilst families etc where checking in ) the staff took no action at all. second trip not a lot better really. i have to agree that the the bigger yards imho seem to turn a blind eye to this problem ( AND IT IS A PROBLEM) iv seen it with my own eyes, a boat left our yard and followed us up the river( same group of guys we had seen in tescos buying large amounts of beer )with a 6ft blow up dool straped to the front of the boat( great pair of t**s and a big mouth) didnt really want my grand daughter seeing that tho. phoned the yard spoke to the staff they said they would deal with it (great) sunday morning came along a quite trip down to wroxham was ruined by guess who ( doris the blow up doll ) and her chums, they played bumper cars with their boats or should i say the yards boats all the way to wroxham. we broke down in horning the next morning and had to call the yard out, the guy that came out to fix our problem told us that they had caught up with the guys on dorises boat in wroxham on the sat night and had delt with the problem. to late really not only had they ruined mine and my families day/s on the river but they had cooked the engine on one of the boats ( who cares big yard whats an engine to them) and i no for a fact we were many who had complained to our yard about the antics of this group. well not that it matters but i will no longer be using this yard. rant over

[Dan]

Yes indeed... engines are free to big boatyards aren't they, so they wont care at all.

Although they weren't caught as quick as you wanted the yard did catch them AND take the action you wanted. That will have taken some man power & peoples time, and logistically it's a bit unfair to expect them caught immediately. I think I'd have felt reassured that such behaviour was not welcome as a result, rather than deciding their outlook must be they are happy to have that behaviour & dont mind their boats or engines being wrecked.

I think the behaviour is a much wider problem as has been mentioned. Spoiling someone elses enjoyment or being considerate to others, general respect & courtesy has been on the decline and slip for a long time. What we are reporting here is a reflection of society today.

It's a problem that wont go away totally ever, and has always been there to some degree. Unless their is a mass changing of attitude & society a noticeable difference will not be obtained, as interviews before taking reservations is not realistic for many businesses, and generalisations and exclusions by stereotype are not what the UK has set its stall out on.

Dan

[Soundings]

I am sorry to hear that Andy, we have also had some bad experiences. So many say this hooliganism is not as bad as reported but many threads on this and other forums suggest otherwise. It is not all hirers but that does not mean they are not represented. Private boaters are usually out for a day or two and do not, in my experience, tend to buy all the beer in Tesco (of course there are exceptions). Last year we were moored outside Herbert Woods and a boat load of lads were undertaking their training trial - whilst drinking lager. Now how can a yard allow that to happen and let the boat go out!

Today we had a run down to Barton and back. There were quite a few boats about but apart from a stupid canoe paddling out in front of us there were no incidents. Lots of friendly smiles and waves and a lovely sunny day on the river. This is how it should be.

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

I posted some thoughts on this subject on another very similar thread last week. As i said in that thread, the responsibliity for this sort of behaviour being allowed to go on lays with the large fleets, who are only too keen to allow these groups of yobs to take their boats out. I also said that WE can all do our bit by reporting ALL these incidencies, not just to the police, but also to the BA, and request that action is taken. I said that a good way of dealing with this sort of behaviour is to put a blanket ban on all male female parties, or even large groups of "non family parties" under a certain age, but that`s only my opinion. What i think IS a good idea, is for the BA to actually do something positive, and bring in a system similar to the "3 strikes and you`re out" concept, whereby if a yard continually hires out boats to groups of yobs like these, and they get more than a certain number of complaints about the behaviour of thier choice of customers, they get their operators license suspended, or banned altogether. I know this may sound rather extreme, but if the yards who continally hire to these groups are made to pay severely for THEIR customers behaviour, they may start to think twice about who they allow to hire their boats?. I`m sorry if you`re reading this Clive, and it leaves a sour taste in your throat, but i`ve often seen this sort of behaviour going on on some of your larger boats, and if i see it again, i will definately be reporting it to the yards in question, and informing them that the matter will also be reported to the police, and the BA. Let`s not forget, if this sort of thing drives people away, the BA will lose one hell of a lot of license revinue, so it will also be in their financial interrest to try and stamp it out. Regards to all, and hoping for a peaceful 2 weeks, .................. Neil.

[Dan]

The problem as I see it Neil is that you are trying to blame the operators when it is their customers who are behaving badly.

You are suggesting stereotyping massively, and sadly the reality is you have no way of knowing who is going to be a 'bad' customer. As was mentioned on the recent thread in a similar vein despite your opinion it is a long way from exclusively being the big boats, the all males etc etc who exclusively cause trouble or damage, as a few different people reported from bad things they had seen. I am not sure quite how you would stand by stereotyping & banning massively as there is no doubt this is dodgy and grey parts of the law. What would happen if fleets started saying no women welcome, no homosexuals etc - well they'd get they're arses kicked legally and quite rightly so. As was also mentioned the single sex parties that everyone likes to group as the problems often are not, and the reality is they already have more to lose & real incentives to enjoy themselves sensibly. As has been said though, a flag appears and some mindsets are made up.

Perhaps also if one big boatyard has 100 boats out at one point and another big boatyard has 300 boats out at the same time, and both big boatyards have large boats, then noticing that it is these yards who are the problem some thought needs to be given to the fact that if you see 1 bad activity from one of the yards and 3 from the other then noticing that a yard with only 5 boats and you havent seen any bad activity from them means they are doing it right is perhaps not that fair?

I will probably try and avoid saying too much more, I know we all have different viewpoints and opinions... but as i said on the other similarly themed thread.. take the right actions if you see bad behaviour (genuinely bad, not just a group of people enjoying themselves who you have cast as troublemakers as they are not there for the same enjoyment/experience as yourself) and chill out... this is the world we live in at the end of the day, the reality is still the Broads is overall a very relaxing, beautiful place where you can have a great holiday or relaxing few days out!

Dan

[Matt]

I was overtaken on the road today by a man talking on his mobile phone whilst driving a Hertz hire car.

Do I expect Hertz to deal with him or the relevant authorities?

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

So, let`s look at it from your view?. We must`nt stereotype?, people stereotype ALL the time, and by and large, get it mostly right. Whether someone likes it or not, most large groups of young men, and these days sometimes women too, will get drunk and be rowdy, and will be offending somebody somewhere. That`s a fact. People may not like the fact, but it IS a fact, and by banning these groups, you`ll cut the incidencies dramatically. Unfortunately, the innocent in life always have to suffer because of the guilty. It`s one of the reasons why things like car insurance is so high. Again, it`s a fact, and we have to put up with it. As i said before, those who allow these yobs to hire their boats MUST start to take responsibility, as if they stopped them from hiring, it would`nt happen. The smaller indipendant family operated yards seem to be successful in this area, so why can`t the big fleet operators?. As i said in the other thread, if the fleet operators who allow their customers the opportunity to get up to this sort of thing were to be held accountable, by both the Police, and the BA, then maybe, just maybe, they`d be more inclined to be a bit more selective as to who they hire to. Regards to all ............. Neil.

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

I was overtaken on the road today by a man talking on his mobile phone whilst driving a Hertz hire car.

Do I expect Hertz to deal with him or the relevant authorities?

Yes, you SHOULD report it to Hertz, as they would be able to refuse to allow a dangerous driver to hire one of their vans.

[Dan]

So, let`s look at it from your view?. We must`nt stereotype?,.

You can stereotype as much as you like Neil (though I probably wont agree with a lot of it)... but a business cannot sterotype in the same way unless it is very stupid or happy get screwed into the ground over it.

re the small independent yards, there's a bit in my last reply to that, but if a yard does not have ten berth cruisers you are unlikely to be able to see any cruising down the river with anyone aboard.

Why should a fleet not have ten berths. Not everyone who hires them is a group you dont like?

I'm aware you wont change your opinion, and nor will I ever come round to your way of thinking to be fair... though perhaps we can go round in circles for a bit longer!

Dan

[C.Ricko]

Hi Neil,

I am not really too worried about what is written on a forum, there are many informed contributions and plenty who dont know what really goes on but like to get excited about different situations. I dont normally comment on these type of threads for that very reason and not because I dont care.

last week we had a group of three girls on a San Rafael with no issues but also a larger boat with 3 generations of a family both male and female who caused a problem in a pub and made a mess of the boat. Who (in your opinion) should we ban?

I would like to hope that you have not been detured from using you local pubs because of the possibility of encountering drunkardness or walking down the high street in case you see a crack addict asking for money.

The main reason that the smaller yards do not hire out the big boats is that they cant fit them in the boatyards but I am sure they will tell you different.

We also sell captains hats and pirates hats but please dont be scared if you see grandad in a hat and his grandson in the captains version.

As has been said before, in peak we send out about 450 parties a week, which is about the same as everyone elce put together so the chances are if you see a problem it will be about a 50% chance it is on a boat of ours, we would probably have our 3 strikes and loose our licence in a year and the BA would loose another £300k of income plus the income from other yards shut by your rule.

This is a great forum and one where good discussions and debates take place but this is the second thread which makes this place no better than the other places

[w44nty]

You cannot put the blame on the hire firms,it is a general problem with society as a whole,the yobbish element are now unfortunately everywhere and if you are a business that hires out a lot of boats for holidays you will always get some who just do not know how to behave.

What must also be pointed out is ,not all groups of young people are trouble makers,just the minority

[NorfolkNog]

I think it needs to be looked at from the yards position. They cannot realistically vet every customer. For example DRL hired out 2 boats in February. The party where archetypal professional types yet managed to trash both boats. They posted the keys through the boatyard letter box and were then miffed that their deposit was withheld! Swancraft had an issue with their smallest boat which was left in a dreadful state and the hirers legged it up the car park!! I believe that the boatyards do everything they can in difficult circumstances. And to put this in perspective these incidents are not everyday occurrences. I’m sure that Clive will confirm that for the 1,000’s of boats that go out, a tiny minority cause problems. As has been pointed out this is becoming a feature of our society unfortunately. Norfolk, although not immune, is still better than many areas of the country. Where I live, sadly such behaviour in the pubs and elsewhere is common place.

Let’s not knock the yards – they play a pivotal role on the Broads economy including keeping the pubs open!

And finally the increased use of cyberspace means that every incident of this kind tends to be put under the microscope.

Mind you I can thoroughly recommend going out in December if you want some peace and quiet!!

[Soundings]

There is a lot of sense beeing spoken but nevertheless it happens to the detriment of the majority and yes there are places I, and I know many others, will not go in city/town centres at chuck-out time. The yards do not have a chrystal ball but surely when they see significant indications at pick-up time they should act accordingly. That Herbert Woods boat I mentioned where the crew were drinking during training should have been pulled or at least the deposit increased substantially under the threat of no return if complaints received/damage done. The question of are the yards responsible is a legal one. I do not know the answer but are not pubs/hotels etc resposible for their customers whilst those customers are on their premises? I think they are and if so is not a hire boat the yards premises.

Yes, tI think the boatyards can be more proactive (maybe increasing the deposits and being harder on the terms of the refunds will help) but that still leaves the problem og the private lout, and we know they exist. The answer there is surely better policing of the Broads - I was out all day yesterday and never saw a Ranger or any other kind of authority. On the water policing is sadly lacking and an improvement would greatly help the cause generally. Incidentally are the BA moorings policed at all after dark?

[Guest]

Threads like this do the local economy no favours.

People who have never visited the broads may well be put off from visiting .... the picture painted here is an area plagued by drunken, noisy yobs in an un-policed play-ground with uncaring service providers.

The Broads is NOT as above, it is generally a quiet, tranquille, pleasant and safe environment in which you are virtually guaranteed a super holiday.

The problem here is one of perception ...... when young i'm sure most of us loved drinking, loud music and often could be perceived of rowdy behaviour.

With age most calm down and start to love things like bird watching, watching soaps and staying in. This is when we perceive that young people are becoming more un-ruly, rude & threatening. This is NOT true. Young people today are know better or worse than the youth of the 50's unwards!!