Who Builds Most Boats

[andyg]

That interesting to know Clive, shows you how much I look at T&C I've made 2 bookings with Richardson's this past month and hadn't noticed the fair price charter had been dropped. Ummm

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, RS2021 said:

Interestingly the model used in the low cost airline business is to discount for early bookers to fill a plane and cover your costs. You then charge late bookers higher prices to make your profit.

In which case, that is a complete turnaround from the old Sunsail (and Freddie Laker) concept of "bums on seats".

You charter an aircraft and you book a number of cheap hotel rooms in the Playa Las Americas, Tenerife.  You then advertise package holidays at the full brochure price.  As soon as you have half filled the aircraft, you have covered the operating costs.  After that, you offer big last minute discounts, and all the other bums that you can put on the rest of the seats, are clear profit.

Neither your model, nor mine, works for the Norfolk Broads and this is the problem!

For all of my time in the business, we have tried to work on a brochure price, with no discounting.  In other words, a level playing field.  But times have changed and quite clearly, not for the best!

[andyg]

The lcc Airlines make tiny if any profits out of seat sales, they make there money from  ancillaries they sell you IE allocated seats,  luggage onboard food and beverage sales etc. Even onward journey bus tickets you can buy onboard. It's a very fragile business model. I believe ( but maybe wrong ) hoseasons are now owned by an American company so no surprise this type of pricing has crept in. 

[Bikertov]

31 minutes ago, andyg said:

The lcc Airlines make tiny if any profits out of seat sales, they make there money from  ancillaries they sell you IE allocated seats,  luggage onboard food and beverage sales etc. Even onward journey bus tickets you can buy onboard. It's a very fragile business model. I believe ( but maybe wrong ) hoseasons are now owned by an American company so no surprise this type of pricing has crept in. 

And even the airport charges are now a profit centre.

I dropped someone off at Luton early this morning - you used to be able to drop at mid-term car park and they got a free shuttle bus right to the terminal. Now - no shuttle bus, so you have to walk 10-15 minutes. As they have walking difficulties, I had no choice but to pay the £5 "tax" for 10 minutes drop off - and even then it is a fair walk to the terminal for someone who struggles.

[DAVIDH]

Hoseasons are not operating a true fluid pricing model. Firstly, the prices are set by the boatyards not Hoseasons. Secondly, and the reason why true fluid pricing would not work in it's present form with boating, is that it's has to be operated by an algorithm, which is preloaded with data on when to raise (or lower) prices. You often hear when an airline goes out of business, that fares on rival airlines shoot up (Thomas Cook Airlines for example). This is because as more seats are sold to replace those that were lost, the algorithm automatically ratchets up the prices, because that old rule of supply and demand is observed. I don't believe Hoseasons have any such algorithm in play. If it had, then the 4 or 5 craft which became available at 48 hours notice due to cancellation just before the Autumn Half Term break, would have been offered at lower prices than normal. They weren't and as such, they didn't sell. I would guess the investment needed to take pricing to the algorithmic level would be huge, and when all said and done, Hoseasons is just an agent. The boatyards (and the cottage owners) would be the ones asked to stump up the cash. 

[YnysMon]

I’ve noticed that the prices of properties advertised on Cottages.com (which we’ve booked with several times) now fluctuate frequently.  Presumably they much be using an algorithm, otherwise it would be just too much person power to change them that often. If they can do I why not Hoseasons? 

[andyg]

Well regardless of who's using what systems etc etc, and after an absolute stonking season for all yards. I really hope they get an uninterrupted winter maintenance programme and we see some much smarter looking boats in March. Lots of gel coat repairs some paint and loads of polishing is the order of the day... doh !!! I'm moaning about standards again, bad me 😉😅

[Mouldy]

27 minutes ago, andyg said:

Well regardless of who's using what systems etc etc, and after an absolute stonking season for all yards. I really hope they get an uninterrupted winter maintenance programme and we see some much smarter looking boats in March. Lots of gel coat repairs some paint and loads of polishing is the order of the day... doh !!! I'm moaning about standards again, bad me 😉😅

I wouldn’t say moaning, just making a fair point in my humble opinion.  I know it’s been a long, busy season, but when you look at a photo of a boat in a brochure or on a website and it looks pristine, it must be disappointing when you arrive at the boatyard, having stumped up a considerable amount of hard earned, to find that your boat looks as if it’s been in the marine equivalent of a demolition derby.  Frankly, the external condition of some craft gave the impression that they hadn’t received any tlc over the winter whatsoever.

With large fleets, it’s obviously impossible to give the boats the same care and attention lavished on them by the likes of Silverline, Summercraft and the other smaller yards, but surely giving them an external scrub down every few weeks isn’t too much to expect.

[Oddfellow]

10 hours ago, SwanR said:

We are definitely starting to feel priced out of our Broads holidays. Just not prepared to pay this kind of money. When we started hiring back in 2012 we had holidays in June for several years. Now the Broads is feeling too expensive to be our summer holiday. And not as relaxing as it was. October was busy this year which leaves us with March. I don’t really want nothing but winter holidays so we’re starting to look elsewhere. 

You won't find a cheaper boating holiday in the UK though and Europe isn't exactly low-cost either. Try finding a caravan! 

Cottage holidays tend to remain decent value (I have a few around the coast - nudge-nudge) ;-)

 

[Andrewcook]

Hi as to having a busy Boating Season now drawn to a Close  I do hope the Winter  maintenance Programme gets under way to get the Boats back into Ship Shape for  2022 New Season . But I do hope there is full  Employment for the people Living in Norfolk through out the Winter and into the New Year and beyond in  2022 

[Oddfellow]

A few years ago, I began writing a system that would scrape data from Hoseasons in order to operate a more "fluid" pricing system. In the end, I simply didn't have the time to dedicate to it and make it financially viable for the business, but writing a web site scraper isn't hard, but it does need to be clever and avoid detection and be modifiable to cope with changes in data presentation.  

As Freedom never published a brochure AND had a flexible any-day to any-day booking system, price fluctuations were relatively easy to implement in our pricing calculations anyway and the pricing database was structured in such a way to make subtle changes incredibly easy. 

In reality, we rarely put prices up (though it did happen) and far more often adjusted them down. The effect would never have been noticed on the web site though as we rarely discounted, we just adjusted prices as the market dictated. Discounts were seen as bad news in our eyes.   

[BroadAmbition]

looks as if it’s been in the marine equivalent of a demolition derby.

Like it      

Griff

[SwanR]

2 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

Try finding a caravan! 

Nothing wrong with a caravan. You get some very good modern accommodation and good facilities at a reasonable price. 

[DAVIDH]

2 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

A few years ago, I began writing a system that would scrape data from Hoseasons in order to operate a more "fluid" pricing system. In the end, I simply didn't have the time to dedicate to it and make it financially viable for the business, but writing a web site scraper isn't hard, but it does need to be clever and avoid detection and be modifiable to cope with changes in data presentation.  

The difference, and what I was trying to point out, is that all the boats you had price control over, were your own boats. Therefore, if you did price up or down a boat, it affected just you. For dynamic pricing to work, you need the permission of all those you're selling on behalf of. Some organisations are large, but others have just a few units. If Mrs A was selling well with her five units in a buoyant market, would she want the algorithm to ratchet the prices of her units up, beyond those of her main competition, also being sold on the Hoseasons site? Like for like, which would you choose? Dynamic pricing works for airlines like Ryanair, Easyjet, Jet2 etc because they own all the stock. If they raise the price on a particular day's flight, the consumer will either accept it or choose another day to get the price down. Either way, the money stays within the company. 

Algorithms incorporate historical data such as the pattern of when people normally book their flights from year to year. At what level price resistance is experienced, as well as the ratchet to respond to heavy levels of bookings generally and for odd dates such as public holidays (Easter, SpringBank, Christmas, or even (in normal years) the Benidorm Fiesta in November. It's all priced automatically. It's not a screen scraper Andy (you probably didn't think it was), it's a very sophisticated piece of programming. I just can't see it being paid for, one way or another, by the many and varied UK holiday home owners, and can't see Mrs A wanting to give carte blanche to some machine deciding what her pricing should be. 

[Oddfellow]

10 hours ago, SwanR said:

Nothing wrong with a caravan. You get some very good modern accommodation and good facilities at a reasonable price. 

I have never seen a good caravan compare favourably with a good boat on price.

[Oddfellow]

10 hours ago, DAVIDH said:

The difference, and what I was trying to point out, is that all the boats you had price control over, were your own boats. Therefore, if you did price up or down a boat, it affected just you. For dynamic pricing to work, you need the permission of all those you're selling on behalf of. Some organisations are large, but others have just a few units. If Mrs A was selling well with her five units in a buoyant market, would she want the algorithm to ratchet the prices of her units up, beyond those of her main competition, also being sold on the Hoseasons site? Like for like, which would you choose? Dynamic pricing works for airlines like Ryanair, Easyjet, Jet2 etc because they own all the stock. If they raise the price on a particular day's flight, the consumer will either accept it or choose another day to get the price down. Either way, the money stays within the company. 

Algorithms incorporate historical data such as the pattern of when people normally book their flights from year to year. At what level price resistance is experienced, as well as the ratchet to respond to heavy levels of bookings generally and for odd dates such as public holidays (Easter, SpringBank, Christmas, or even (in normal years) the Benidorm Fiesta in November. It's all priced automatically. It's not a screen scraper Andy (you probably didn't think it was), it's a very sophisticated piece of programming. I just can't see it being paid for, one way or another, by the many and varied UK holiday home owners, and can't see Mrs A wanting to give carte blanche to some machine deciding what her pricing should be. 

Oh, I agree. For me, it was to be a system that was programmed to look at the availability and prices of key date ranges across the board and make adjustments to my prices according to availability (from a base price). I couldn't see it working in an "Agency" situation at all. 

 

[Vaughan]

A very interesting conversation, which I am afraid is "all Greek" to me!

This started to happen in boating when the larger yards and companies were taken over by big tour operators, whose mindset is totally different, but who can't see the difference. Crown Blue Line and Connoisseur are good examples.  They were both well known and very successful brand names until they were bought out by Sunsail and then First Choice.  Since then, I have watched the new "Le Boat" just do steadily worse and worse every year as they play about with their prices and their "extras' on arrival.  But they won't be told.  They always know better.

Personally, I blame the internet.  I think there are a lot of things in life these days which have become far too instantaneous.

I know what this makes me sound like, but I believe it to be true, all the same.

[Oddfellow]

45 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

A very interesting conversation, which I am afraid is "all Greek" to me!

This started to happen in boating when the larger yards and companies were taken over by big tour operators, whose mindset is totally different, but who can't see the difference. Crown Blue Line and Connoisseur are good examples.  They were both well known and very successful brand names until they were bought out by Sunsail and then First Choice.  Since then, I have watched the new "Le Boat" just do steadily worse and worse every year as they play about with their prices and their "extras' on arrival.  But they won't be told.  They always know better.

Personally, I blame the internet.  I think there are a lot of things in life these days which have become far too instantaneous.

I know what this makes me sound like, but I believe it to be true, all the same.

Nothing stands still, Vaughan. If it weren't for the internet, this greek conversation couldn't happen and we'd still be using landlines to call people who would have to be at another landline to speak to you, but not just any phone either but the one that's wired to the wallbox that you've dialled. We can't blame progress for progress and, as much as you think it's perhaps a degree of regress, it's no different from any other technological advancement when you dig a bit deeper. Humans invent things to simplify tasks and have always done so. The only thing that will stop us is extinction.

  

[Vaughan]

Yes, well I knew I was leaving myself open for a lecture from a younger and far more hi-tech generation.

All the same, the old principles of running a customer service business should also apply.  I mentioned Le Boat earlier and I have watched them shooting themselves in the foot for a few years now.  I would hate to see this happen to my old and good friends on the Broads yards, because they were tempted by easy technology to price themselves out of the market.

It's called "killing the goose, that laid the golden eggs".

[Maxwellian]

Can we please stop using Greek and use Latin instead…. For Vaughan of course :) 

[andyg]

5 minutes ago, Maxwellian said:

Can we please stop using Greek and use Latin instead…. For Vaughan of course :) 

Boom tish lol...tbf its all double Dutch to me as well. 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, andyg said:

Can we please stop using Greek and use Latin instead…. For Vaughan of course :)

"Illegitimi non carborundum".

Don't let the buggers grind you down.

A phrase made famous by U.S. General Joe Stillwell, when driving the Japanese out of Burma in 1945.  My father knew him well.  I have a photo of them together, if I can remember where I put it . . .

[Bikertov]

3 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

"Illegitimi non carborundum".

Don't let the buggers grind you down.

A phrase made famous by U.S. General Joe Stillwell, when driving the Japanese out of Burma in 1945.  My father knew him well.  I have a photo of them together, if I can remember where I put it . . .

From what I have briefly seen since I have been active on the Forum, you are certainly a very well connected (and respected) gentleman !

[Vaughan]

Sorry to go totally "off piste" but I have just found the photo! 

 

At left rear is Lt General Joe "Manny" Stillwell, who was in command of largely Chinese forces on the north east border of Burma.  Beside him is my father and beside and seated, are four of the leaders of the eight flotillas of MLs (Royal Indian Navy) who were under my father's command in the re-taking of Rangoon.  Stillwell's forces joined General Slim's 14th Army in the land assault on Rangoon whilst Arakan Coastal Forces landed from seaward.  The officer at right is Captain (D) of the destroyers who gave the close in escort to the coastal forces craft as they landed.  My father's depot and H.Q. ship, HMIS Barracuda, was the first ship to enter Rangoon when it was re-taken.  Years earlier, in 1942, my father escaped Rangoon on the same ship, then a merchant ship, when the Japanese invaded.

It's a long and quite complicated story and I suppose, one day, I ought to write it all down, as my father told it to me.

[SwanR]

12 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

I have never seen a good caravan compare favourably with a good boat on price.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I've been comparing static caravan prices to boat hires for mid-August next year. Top spec to top spec, middle to middle, sleeps the same number of people etc. The caravans do come out cheaper, just depends what you want out of your holiday. But I think they're comparable.