I Have Just Been Clobbered By One Of Those B * * * * * Hire Boats!

[Wussername]

What is the situation with regard to personal injury. I presume that the private boat will have personal injury insurance but what happens, due to a  hires negligence, a member of a private boats crew is injured, or any crew on any boat come to that. Can the person who caused the injury be pursued and if that said person is of limited means would it be worthwhile?

Or is the hire boat itself and its helm covered by insurance indirectly by the owner?

[Meantime]

6 minutes ago, Wussername said:

What is the situation with regard to personal injury. I presume that the private boat will have personal injury insurance but what happens, due to a  hires negligence, a member of a private boats crew is injured, or any crew on any boat come to that. Can the person who caused the injury be pursued and if that said person is of limited means would it be worthwhile?

Or is the hire boat itself and its helm covered by insurance indirectly by the owner?

If an accident is caused by someone's negligence it would be their vessels insurance, hired or private, that would be expected to pay out, and if they were found to be uninsured, then it would be your own vessels insurance. In addition if negligence can be proven there may well be a criminal prosecution, one reason why you MUST inform the BA if there is a personal injury or serious damage to property or any other vessel.

[addicted]

As mentioned in a previous post, While we were going to Oulton Broad last Sunday evening we were  subjected to a very unpleasant experience courtesy of a speedboat and the water skier it was towing. As they approached our bow the skier pulled out right across the river and was heading straight for our bow only returning to the other side of the river at the last moment. The wave this caused coupled with the enormous wash given off by the speed boat caused  practically everything oin board that was free standing to fall over. We both thought at one stage that the boat was going to turn over. It was seriously frightening.  We sustained a nasty chip out of our galley sink. They did this manoeuvre  5 times in total approaching us from the bow and from the stern but the last time was by far the worst. If we had had anybody on board who was frail or infirm the outcome clould have been very serious. Indeed it we had been in a smaller boat I hate to think what could have happened.  I thought about it for a couple of days and came to the conclusiuon  that  I wasn't overreacting and that the the BA should be informed and I phoned them I was put through to s very helpful man whose name I  didn't hear properly, He did chase it up and actually  spoke to the man at the helm of the boat apparently who denied having even seen us - really? on five occcasions? the point is  that apparently without photographic evidence nothing positve can be done. So we are left with a damaged sink and any repair is for us to pay for.  I don't have the sort of phone required for this and even if I had  had one  I would  not have been able to use it as I was too busy trying to  stay upright on a boat that was being tossed all over the place.

 

 

Carole

 

 

Carole

[ExSurveyor]

It might be worth considering a dash cam, the sort that are common on cars these days. They tend to hold 5 minutes of recoverable footage.

[floydraser]

2 hours ago, Meantime said:

A hirer like a privateer is not exempt from the Byelaws, which are clear on the matter. Both parties should stop as soon as possible and exchange details. If the incident is of a serious nature you should contact the BA as well.

It's not just the local byelaws of whoever's making, it is the law of the land that if you cause damage to property you are responsible for putting things right. Running away without leaving details could be interpreted as trying to get out of it. I think that's what Public Liabilities insurance is all about?

I am reminded of an incident many years ago when someone reversed into my car in the car park of a wholesale business. I rang the guy and he was flumoxed as to how I knew it was him and how I got his number. This was before people were shy about giving out details too. I explained that the wholesalers had given me his details. 

He had failed to notice my two sons were in the back of the car and had been astute enough to take his registration number. They came in to find us, and as the guy was a regular, the wholesalers knew who it was straight away.

He would have been less embarassed and his reputation more intact if he had done the decent thing in the first place.

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, floydraser said:

It's not just the local byelaws of whoever's making, it is the law of the land that if you cause damage to property you are responsible for putting things right.

 

Not exactly.

If the damage, or even serious injury, was caused accidentally, the 'victim' is very unlikely to get any recompense. An accident is an incident which no-one could have reasonably foreseen and for which no-one should be held responsible.

It is very different if negligence can be proved. This is a concept that goes back 80-odd years, to the case of Donoghue v Stevenson. 'Negligence' is based on whether you do something which you can reasonably foresee will injure someone else (or someone else's property) who is likely to be affected by your actions, or your lack of action. Hence the importance given to risk assessments. It also explains the proliferation of No Mooring, No Swimming, No Diving, No Doing-Anything-Else signs.

[Vaughan]

I would refer us to Richardsons' conditions of hire, available on their website today, as I have always found them well representative of the industry as a whole.  I have taken the trouble to copy two conditions here :

25. Liability.

We cannot accept liability for any damage, expense, injury, death or loss of any nature whatsoever suffered by any persons from any cause whatsoever other than in the case of the proven negligence of ourselves, or employees or agents.  Your boating holiday should be a fun and relaxing break.  Whilst every effort is made by us to ensure your safety, participants should be aware that boating and associated activities involving the water involve a certain amount of assumed risk.  You and your party should accept the inherent risks and ensure that your party has sufficient knowledge, skill and fitness for such activities.

26. Personal insurance.

You are strongly recommended to take out personal insurance for your holiday. Details of personal insurance are available on request.

This looks exactly like Blakes conditions of hire when I was a director, back in the 70s and is no different from the 60s, when my father was the chairman of Blakes.

So nothing at all has changed, as far as I can see!  Yards and agencies have always pushed the need to take out personal insurance for injury and personal effects and the agencies have always offered this insurance, by the offices of their own insurers.

There is nothing new in this.

I believe it is possible that your own house insurance will cover you for injury or loss while on holiday, but this depends on the individual policy.  I also believe that certain credit cards will  cover you for travel insurance, depending on the type of holiday booked.

 

 

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, Paladin said:

Not exactly.

If the damage, or even serious injury, was caused accidentally, the 'victim' is very unlikely to get any recompense. An accident is an incident which no-one could have reasonably foreseen and for which no-one should be held responsible.

It is very different if negligence can be proved. This is a concept that goes back 80-odd years, to the case of Donoghue v Stevenson. 'Negligence' is based on whether you do something which you can reasonably foresee will injure someone else (or someone else's property) who is likely to be affected by your actions, or your lack of action. Hence the importance given to risk assessments. It also explains the proliferation of No Mooring, No Swimming, No Diving, No Doing-Anything-Else signs.

Not exactly but near enough for rock and roll.

So if my foot slips off the brake pedal and I run into the back of someone, I can claim it as an accident because it was clearly not deliberate? Or I could just say it was an accident and not give a reason? An accident is usually deemed to be the responsibility of one party in practical terms, which is where this thread is based. Two boats crashing into each other are rarely and act of God. Unless one breaks free from a mooring but even then, it should be insured for the purpose of covering the damage caused.

[Vaughan]

24 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Two boats crashing into each other are rarely and act of God.

They often are, actually.  Act of God is a recognised term in the insurance world.  

The French call it "Catastrophe naturelle".

26 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Unless one breaks free from a mooring but even then, it should be insured for the purpose of covering the damage caused.

And indeed it is.

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, floydraser said:

Not exactly but near enough for rock and roll.

So if my foot slips off the brake pedal and I run into the back of someone, I can claim it as an accident because it was clearly not deliberate? Or I could just say it was an accident and not give a reason? An accident is usually deemed to be the responsibility of one party in practical terms, which is where this thread is based. Two boats crashing into each other are rarely and act of God. Unless one breaks free from a mooring but even then, it should be insured for the purpose of covering the damage caused.

I don't intend to argue law with you, but the sections of your post I have emboldened show how easy it is to misunderstand.  'Near enough' is never near enough for law. There are usually strict definitions and specific points to prove.

If an action causing damage or injury was judged to be deliberate, it would come under criminal, not civil, law. I didn't make any reference to 'deliberate' though. The question is 'was the action, or inaction, negligent?'

In practical terms, any such incident is judged by the criteria I have set out. There is no such thing as 'usual' when it comes to these incidents. They must always be judged on the specific circumstances.

What this thread has highlighted, though, is how dangerous it can be to rely on forum lawyers. What might be very well-meaning advice could well be totally wrong, and I include myself in that.

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

25. Liability.

We cannot accept liability for any damage, expense, injury, death or loss of any nature whatsoever suffered by any persons from any cause whatsoever other than in the case of the proven negligence of ourselves, or employees or agents.  Your boating holiday should be a fun and relaxing break.  Whilst every effort is made by us to ensure your safety, participants should be aware that boating and associated activities involving the water involve a certain amount of assumed risk.  You and your party should accept the inherent risks and ensure that your party has sufficient knowledge, skill and fitness for such activities.

Whilst that may be the standard terms and conditions, let us remind ourselves of the fact that it is an offence under the Byelaws to keep, let for hire or use a vessel in the navigation unless there is in force in relation to the vessel a policy of insurance that complies with Schedule 3 of The Broads Act 2009. Each owner has to declare that they have such an insurance policy in place at the time they toll their boat.

Schedule 3 para 1 states that a policy is required that shall insure the owner of the vessel and such other person, persons or classes of persons as is or are authorised by the owner to have control of the vessel, in respect of any liability which may be incurred by the owner, or any other such person, resulting from the presence of the vessel in the navigation area or on adjacent waters, in respect of death of, or bodily injury to, any person or any damage to property. 

Since the above is effectively enshrined in law, I think it would supersede any Ts and Cs of a hire company. 

[floydraser]

29 minutes ago, Paladin said:

I don't intend to argue law with you, but the sections of your post I have emboldened show how easy it is to misunderstand.  'Near enough' is never near enough for law. There are usually strict definitions and specific points to prove.

If an action causing damage or injury was judged to be deliberate, it would come under criminal, not civil, law. I didn't make any reference to 'deliberate' though. The question is 'was the action, or inaction, negligent?'

In practical terms, any such incident is judged by the criteria I have set out. There is no such thing as 'usual' when it comes to these incidents. They must always be judged on the specific circumstances.

What this thread has highlighted, though, is how dangerous it can be to rely on forum lawyers. What might be very well-meaning advice could well be totally wrong, and I include myself in that.

Which all goes to show the importance of witnesses to remove as much doubt as possible.

[BroadAmbition]

Addicted / Carole - We both thought at one stage that the boat was going to turn over. It was seriously frightening. 

I can allay your fears here.  Your boat 'Turning over' was never gonna happen.  A water skier & Ski boat no matter how hard or recklessly helmed will never in a month of Sundays turn your boat over.  You would need a wash (Wave) of over six feet high and not just one wave either but numerous waves on a very short swell.  You would also need to get broadside onto the wash too.  Even Breydon on an angry day can't manage that on a full high tide.

I once went 'Side On' purposely whilst on Breydon during a heavy swell (Well, heavy for Breydon).  Yes it did rock and roll us but no danger of going over

Frightening for you I would agree with but to broach or turtle you boat - Not a prayer, not on a Broads river

Griff

[Smoggy]

I once (2009 I recall)went up the trent from trent falls to torksey in company with a couple on a madiera 27 when a couple of ocean 37's (I think) coming the other way dropped speed as they approached causing a fair bit of wash and the guy on the madeira screamed at his mrs. and kid to get their lifejackets on and was panicking and shaking his fist at the two oceans, he was convinced he was going over but the boat had barely bobbed when viewed from in front, I was wetting myself laughing at them as we'd done denver sluice to wells followed by wells to hull on that trip before meeting up with them in an old RLM31 that had terrible sea keeping and would do tail stands for the slightest reason as the engines/outdrives were right at the stern.

On our return trip from boston to denver we'd met up with the owner of our marina and friends and due to beer forgotten to fill the bow water tank before the wash crossing, there was a bit of chop in the freeman channel and the RLM did it's usual habit of tailstands, when we got into denver Richard announced that he'd done our underwater survey on the way across and would invoice us.....

So to echo what Griff said, you'll never get near turning over on anything the broads can chuck at you, I doubt your hull shape is any worse than the RLM, that said things inside should always be where they can be bounced around and not do damage, the previous owners of our old RLM lost 3 tv's to the tugboats on the medway when they'd forgot to stow them.

[addicted]

We've never been  out to sea on a boat we owned so do not have the experience to rationalise as some of you  obviously  do. When we cross Breydon and it seems a bit lively I stow anyhing that  can go flyabout including t.v lamps etc. but on  the stretch of the river approaching the entrance to the Waveney we weren't expecting anything like that. We've experienced water skiers numerous times and never had the remotest cause for concern as they've never targeted us  like that before. I'm convinced it was intentional as they were laughing as they went by. And while we may not have been able to turn over, one of us could have been injured.  I'm just glad I took  the boat number as they have been issued with a warning and it has gone on record so  if they get up to those tricks again and it's reported,  hopefully they'll get their comeuppance. If we ever find ourselves sharing the river with water skiers again we'll be prepared  and have filming equipment to hand.

 

Casole