Diamond Emblem 1 Coroner's Inquest

[Broads01]

1 hour ago, FlyingFortress said:

Think this was a massive opportunity missed.

Shame 

I don't follow, opportunity for what?

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

I agree FF.

There needs to be a conversation.

We must never,ever, have to have to be confronted with this episode again. Ever.

That's like saying there must never be a fatal road accident again ever.

[Wussername]

4 minutes ago, Broads01 said:

I don't follow, opportunity for what?

That's like saying there must never be a fatal road accident again ever.

Is it?

There are many who do not share your blinkered view. 

Where there is an opportunity to question, to try and improve, help those who who are in need, comfort those who have suffered loss that there  are those who care, who wish to make a difference for the future. 

Those who recognise a need for compassion and understanding and a willingness to assist in in a solution however difficult it may seem.

[Vaughan]

I very much understand the sentiment and sympathy which are felt after such a human tragedy and therefore the wish that it should never happen again.

Before we throw the baby out with the bathwater, however, please consider one brutal statistical fact:

In almost 3 years since the accident, it has not happened again and I don't remember any accident of this type on the Broads before.  I was technical director of a company running over 500 hire boats for 20 years. At least 3/4 of them had dual steering and we never had a fatality or even an injury, caused by confusion over its use, not even in locks.

I do very much agree that dual steering must be carefully explained on the trial run but here is the second fact:

This accident happened at the height of the Covid panic, when yards were heavily constrained by all the government restrictions on normal human life.  Only one person was allowed on the boat for the trial run.  Only one person was even allowed in the office.  So the driver of the boat at the time of the accident had not had any controls explained to her as she was not there for the instruction.  She was sitting in the car park maintaining her "social distancing".

 

[Vaughan]

6 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

Think this was a massive opportunity missed.

 

On 13/04/2023 at 07:13, JanetAnne said:

We are already seeing the first consequences of this incident with the enforced introduction of the British Marine QAB scheme as a condition of the Broads Authority hire operators licence.

During a discussion on this several months ago, I warned that there is no point in enforcing another level of documentation and more "boxes to tick".

I have had a close read of the QAB website, where they describe the scheme and what you have to conform to in order to participate.  Considerable use is made of the expression "self assessment".  As far as I can see this seems to be much more of a Tourist Board Rosette than a practical code of business conduct.  In particular I cannot see anything which refers to actual installation safety standards although it appears that you can choose to have each boat awarded "stars".  There are, of course, additional fees to be paid for the accreditation.

But in making this an obligation, the BA can always turn round and say "Look, there you are : this is the Authority taking responsible action".

[Hylander]

On 12/04/2023 at 19:59, Mouldy said:

Emergency stop button?  I don’t think I’ve seen one of them In over fifty years of visiting The Broads.  

I wondered if anyone else had thought the same on hearing this.      I dont think I have seen one either.  

Edited to say,  I have just read a post saying it is the engine stop.      Well in most boats that I have been on that has been situated at the back of the boat (Bounty 30 type).     I assumed by reading this that when you have duel steering there is a button up top that you can press and the engine will immediately stop.       Sorry if I am wrong.

 

[Vaughan]

2 minutes ago, Hylander said:

I wondered if anyone else had thought the same on hearing this.      I dont think I have seen one either.  

Perhaps worth an explanation.

Old engines such as Perkins have a stop cable, which you pull out to stop the engine.  More modern ones have a solenoid, which means you stop the engine by pushing a button.  Most new engines have the solenoid wired to the key, so that the engine stops as soon as you turn the key off, in the same way as a petrol engine.

If you have dual controls and wish to be able to start and stop the engine in both places, the wiring all has to be doubled up in two parallel circuits.  In addition, a flying bridge is always open to the weather and ignition keys are not weather proof.  In heavy rain, this can even result in the starter motor engaging while the engine is running.  This will burn out the starter and cause a fire in the engine compartment. 

For this reason, most dual steer boats can only be stopped and started at the main dashboard down below and only a few instruments, such as rev counter and temperature, are repeated on top.  Some yards, but not all, also install a stop button on the flying bridge.  Personally I think it is potentially dangerous to be able to stop the engine from on top but then not be able to start it again.  I have never seen this as a safety feature.

[rightsaidfred]

Is this whole discussion about engine stop buttons not misleading as is the advice often heard at moorings, surely the only appropriate, expedient and necessary action is to engage neutral.

I despair at the number of times hirers get told to switch the engine off before they are tied up when approaching a mooring, is this something that needs rectifying in the handover procedure? it certainly applies  to the attendants at Ranworth not sure about elsewhere as I never use Yarmouth or Reedham.

Fred

[Vaughan]

In all the trial runs I have ever seen, customers are told 2 things:

1/. Never cast off the mooring lines before you have started the engine.

2/. Never stop the engine until you have got ashore and moored the boat properly with the lines.

10 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

it certainly applies  to the attendants at Ranworth

It sounds as though BA mooring attendants need to be "accredited" as well!

[JanetAnne]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 

During a discussion on this several months ago, I warned that there is no point in enforcing another level of documentation and more "boxes to tick".

I have had a close read of the QAB website, where they describe the scheme and what you have to conform to in order to participate.  Considerable use is made of the expression "self assessment".  As far as I can see this seems to be much more of a Tourist Board Rosette than a practical code of business conduct.  In particular I cannot see anything which refers to actual installation safety standards although it appears that you can choose to have each boat awarded "stars".  There are, of course, additional fees to be paid for the accreditation.

But in making this an obligation, the BA can always turn round and say "Look, there you are : this is the Authority taking responsible action".

There is quite an emphasis on handover procedures, relevant documentation and associated risk assessments. Then there are chunks that are almost taken straight from the hire BSS. They do, however, send an assessor round to evaluate everything as well.

Something else. A number of insurance companies have either withdrawn or are going to withdraw from the Broads hire market.

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

There is quite an emphasis on handover procedures, relevant documentation and associated risk assessments. Then there are chunks that are almost taken straight from the hire BSS. They do, however, send an assessor round to evaluate everything as well.

That's good to hear, Dave but in your experience, do you think it has added anything to the service you were already providing?

[JanetAnne]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

That's good to hear, Dave but in your experience, do you think it has added anything to the service you were already providing?

I'm not the one to ask. I am returning to the hire industry after a long absence so much has changed.

For me, QAB has been a very expensive exercise, I need it for a single dayboat that is included in a holiday let. It's initially £490 for the assessment which, for Ricko's is the equivalent of about £2.00 a boat whereas, for me, it's £490 a boat!

All my documentation is already reviewed by the BA including a personal face to face interview with the licencing officer (nice chap actually) and then it's all gone through again by QAB. 

By the time you have done gas safe, electric safety test, hire boat BSS, Stability tests, BA hire operators licence, British Marine QAB, 7 different risk assessments, your EAP, handover documents and dealt with insurance companies and toll offices etc etc you can understand why there are so many coming out of the industry and very few people interested in taking it up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I am absolutely compliant and it certainly does increase confidence that we are doing it right. It's taken 18 months though.

Anyone want to buy a dayboat....

[CeePee1952]

3 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Is this whole discussion about engine stop buttons not misleading as is the advice often heard at moorings, surely the only appropriate, expedient and necessary action is to engage neutral.

I despair at the number of times hirers get told to switch the engine off before they are tied up when approaching a mooring, is this something that needs rectifying in the handover procedure? it certainly applies  to the attendants at Ranworth not sure about elsewhere as I never use Yarmouth or Reedham.

Fred

OMG!! If I was to be told to switch off my engine before mooring and securely tied up, I'd be offering a few "polite" words to the person telling me that!! Same as before casting off - always start up, let the engine warm up a little, check relevant gauges, test bow/stern thrusters work (if fitted), confirm tidal flow/wind direction and then cast off and gently pull away. We're only occasional visitors to the Broads but still use common sense and prior knowledge to ensure that we have as troublefree a holiday as possible. I can just visualise boats drifting uncontrolled after being told to switch their engines off before mooring at Ranworth when there's a significant breeze blowing 

Chris

P.S. A week today and we'll be halfway to HW to start our weeks holiday 

[BroadAmbition]

There it is - right there - Berthing Lines (Ropes then)  Having read the report and news releases on the various links (Thanks to those that have posted them)

Why do the yards not put any emphasis during the handover on stowing the blasted ropes once underway?  This poor woman MIGHT have survived if the stern berthing rope hadn't gone into the water with her.

There are so many ignorants out there who scoff at us anoraks onboard 'B.A' and the Lads week crews because our ropes are always cheesed down when not in use, underway or not.   I explain this to all crews members as  part of our onboard safety brief for 'B.A' and the Lads week.

There are three reasons why deck ropes should be stowed neatly - ideally cheesed down, if not practical to do so then at least coiled or hung up out of harms way.  In order or importance:-

1)  Crew safety, if a rope is cheesed down then it will not roll underfoot causing a crew member to slip and end up in the water, with the real possibility of impact injury on the way into the river of a hardstanding bank

2)  Boat safety, if a stern line goes into the water then there is the real possibility of fouling the prop - Day and / or holiday over

3)  Yes - Admittedly, tidy ropes look good

Griff

[mikeyboy1966]

Cheesed down?

[TFrench89]

This is a tragic accident, fortunately very rare. R.I.P

[Vaughan]

48 minutes ago, mikeyboy1966 said:

Cheesed down?

 

Admiralty Manual of Seamanship, vol 1.

[ExSurveyor]

Here's a question, why is it called ' faked' ?

[Vaughan]

9 minutes ago, ExSurveyor said:

Here's a question, why is it called ' faked' ?

Actually, the asterisk against the word notes that it used to be wrongly called "flaked".   My father was in the Navy in the war and always called it flaking down.

At the least, a mooring rope should be coiled, before laying it down on deck and it is less of a tripping hazard.  That way, you can pick it up and throw it to the bank and it should not get snagged up.  Most ropes, except log lines, are "right hand laid" so you coil them into the left hand and they will not kink up.

And yes, hirers are shown this on the trial run, if they seem prepared to LISTEN.

 

[CeePee1952]

2 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

There it is - right there - Berthing Lines (Ropes then)  Having read the report and news releases on the various links (Thanks to those that have posted them)

Why do the yards not put any emphasis during the handover on stowing the blasted ropes once underway?  This poor woman MIGHT have survived if the stern berthing rope hadn't gone into the water with her.

There are so many ignorants out there who scoff at us anoraks onboard 'B.A' and the Lads week crews because our ropes are always cheesed down when not in use, underway or not.   I explain this to all crews members as  part of our onboard safety brief for 'B.A' and the Lads week.

There are three reasons why deck ropes should be stowed neatly - ideally cheesed down, if not practical to do so then at least coiled or hung up out of harms way.  In order or importance:-

1)  Crew safety, if a rope is cheesed down then it will not roll underfoot causing a crew member to slip and end up in the water, with the real possibility of impact injury on the way into the river of a hardstanding bank

2)  Boat safety, if a stern line goes into the water then there is the real possibility of fouling the prop - Day and / or holiday over

3)  Yes - Admittedly, tidy ropes look good

Griff

We always “cheese” our ropes when not in use (although I must admit didn’t know it was called cheesing!). I think it also looks more professional as well as the safety aspect.

Chris

[FlyingFortress]

Always called Flaked in the MN.

And to answer Mr Surveyor, I have no idea why 😲

The vast majority of mooring lines ( rope) on ships these days are multi platt but as Vaughan says wires are generally right-hand lay so are flaked right handed unless you get a kink in them then you put in a Frenchman which is left handed. No idea about the origin of that term either 

[floydraser]

One of the best souces of safety information are internet forums where you can get the benefit of genuine experience. When I hired a narrow dayboat for the family last year I gave them a safety briefing based on what I had read here, and mooring ropes were always stored safely. I trust my grandchildren will remember the emphasis on safety for when it's their turn to be Captain.

[Broads01]

17 hours ago, Wussername said:

Is it?

There are many who do not share your blinkered view. 

Where there is an opportunity to question, to try and improve, help those who who are in need, comfort those who have suffered loss that there  are those who care, who wish to make a difference for the future. 

Those who recognise a need for compassion and understanding and a willingness to assist in in a solution however difficult it may seem.

It's not a blinkered view, just a realistic one. The only way of ensuring there are never any accidents on the water is to not go on the water at all. No amount of effective handovers, guard rails, safety buttons or whatever will change that. There are ways to reduce risks of course and I'm the first advocate of those but reducing risk is not the same as having the power to stop accidents happening.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, CeePee1952 said:

We always “cheese” our ropes when not in use (although I must admit didn’t know it was called cheesing!).

Actually, among Norfolk sailors, it is known as a "Cow Pat".  Rather like what you stand in, if you are crossing a meadow!

[Wussername]

27 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Actually, among Norfolk sailors, it is known as a "Cow Pat".  Rather like what you stand in, if you are crossing a meadow!

Or your Labrador decides to roll in it.

[CeePee1952]

2 hours ago, Wussername said:

Or your Labrador decides to roll in it.

At least it’s not fox poo!!! 
Chris