Inboard engines: which are the good, the bad and the ugly?

[znww5]

I'm currently looking for a suitable shaft drive, 26ft displacement hull cruiser with a 30 to 40hp engine, so I would be very interested to hear people's views as to the pros and cons of the different engine manufacturers. The short-list appears to be narrowing down to an Alpha 26 or a Shadow 26 at this stage, so the area of interest now turns to power units.

 

As I understand it, both the Beta Marine and Nanni units are built around the same Kubota base engine, so the question is whether one is any better/worse for parts. I notice that there is a good deal of info available on the Beta, but less so for the Nanni with some of it in 'Frenglish'.

 

I have also seen a Perkins 104.19 powered craft, but info seems to be thin on the ground and in another NBN thread mention is made of spares becoming more problematic.

 

In addition to the 4-pot engines above, I have also seen a boat fitted with 3 cylinder Volvo 2003 turbo diesel. I am wondering how that unit shapes up regarding vibration and noise levels.

 

Essentially I am after info on general impressions, noise levels, parts availability, any 'known issues' to check for and what people think of these power units.

 

Any thoughts/views are much appreciated,

 

David

[BroadScot]

Hi David,

 

Welcome to the NBN forum  . I am sure one of the wizz kids will be along shortly with some answers to your questions.

 

Iain

[Hockham Admiral]

Welcome aboard the NBN, David. 

 

Peachment in Brundall know about as much as any with reference to Nanni's Franglais! Very helpful too.

 

http://www.peachment.co.uk/about-nanni-diesel/

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello David,

 

Welcome to the NBN forum from Tan & myself.

 

John is correct re Peachment's. You could also have a word with Maffett's at Loddon, they know a thing a thing or too about diesel engines, but again also a number of other yards give excelent service.

 

Have a look in our information pages.

 

Regards

Alan

[LondonRascal]

I think you should look at it like this.  When boats are built for hire what engines usually go in them? – Nanni or Beta. 

 

They then have to suffer years of heavy use – running at idle for hours on moorings, crashing from high RPM’S in forward to reverse – and they seem to hold up to this very well.

 

WI've hired a boat with a 90's based Nanni engine in which had over 20,000hrs on the clock being used a lot over in Ireland on the Shannon and now on the Broads. Its only problem was the heat exchanger could have done with a descale as it was pretty badly affected and she ran hot at high RPM’s - but it started first time and would run smoothly all day.

 

Because these engines are sold worldwide there is a huge network of places you can get parts for so they’re not going to run out any time soon. Even if production was stopped tomorrow. 

 

As to prices, well if you can find out what model engine the boats you are looking at have in them – then have a look at what the consumables would cost from searching online may give a good indication.  Volvo parts are probably going to be more expensive however.

 

Modern engines have come a long way in terms of reliability of course, and with diesel engines they generally would work, not work or smoke even the colour of the smoke giving good hints as to what is wrong which is why a test run is always a good idea or oil analysis before purchase.

[znww5]

Thanks to all for the NBN welcome!

 

I was primarily looking for people's 'engine reliability/ease of parts sourcing'  experiiences so as no horror stories have surfaced, it seems that just the usual compression, leak-down and injector tests would be appropriate.

 

Interesting comment regarding oil analysis from LondonRascal though, that's done on older light aircraft engines, but it hadn't occurred to me to do the same with a marine diesel - thanks for the suggestion. I know of a quick-check kit which would be ideal for that, I just need to make sure that it is suitable for diesel power plants as well.

 

Our short-list is now a very short short-list, the only snag is that what we want to see is the best part of 3 hours away - in opposite directions!

 

Thanks again to all for the suggestions/advice . . . the boat search continues

 

 

David

[BroadAmbition]

Beta Marine for me.

 

Installed a brand new Beta 50hp in 'B.A' back in 2007.  Since then it has done approaching 2000 x Hrs with no issues whatsoever.  I have done all the major and minor services myself - which I have found very easy to do.

 

I did try 'Upgrading' the induction side by fitting a K&N air filter - mistake the induction noise was much too high so put the Beta supplied one back on - much better.

 

The only additions I have done is administer ZX1 to the engine and gearbox oil, (Gearbox is the original 2:1 reduction Borg Warner fully reconditioned unit) we also treat our diesel to Soltron at every top up.

 

The Beta is both quiet and smooth in operation, economy is as per the norm - down to tides / use of the throttle but we find it very acceptable

 

Spares are a breeze - just ring Jason / team at LBBy and they are there ready for collection - Incidentally LBBy supplied us with the Beta in the first place as they are main agents for the entire Beta range

 

Would I reccomend a Beta? - most definetly and I have done which has resulted in a few owners purchasing one of their own (Again from LBBy)

 

The main and only reason that I opted for the Beta against a Nanni is that I like to support the British economy against the french one.  Both types are much the same in operation / costs being Kubota based.

 

If you are afloat anytime I am, please feel free to pop onboard and see/hear/feel the Beta in operation, alternativly ask Jason for a trial run in something Beta powered

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Griff

[NeilB]

Another person worth talking to about Nanni / Beta and other makes for that matter is Jason Hatch at Ludham Bridge.

I've never heard of a Perkins 104.19 but there will be lots of BMC's and Perkins around, most spares are still available although a few items like BMC 2.2 / 2.5 and Perkins 4107 cylinder heads are getting a bit scarce.

 

Peachments for Nanni.

Ludham Bridge for Beta

Maffett, ASAP or Ludham Bridge for old Perkins / BMC.

French Marine or Prior Diesel for Volvo.

 

Robin - I would be a bit wary of relying on the tacho mounted hour meter on a hire boat, the engine could have been replaced / re-built several times but the hour meter has probably never been reset!!

 

Volvo Penta spares can be expensive but there are others more expensive, Yanmar springs to mind.  One of the motorboat mags did a comparison a few years ago and Penta were in the middle ground.

 

Oil analysis can be a useful tool and kits are available online.  I'm not sure how useful they are if the oil had been recently changed though, I don't really know enough about the subject.

 

[Oddfellow]

Nanni and Beta are generally using Kubota base engines. Genuine parts from these manufacturers are very expensive whereas the same part from a Kubota dealer is generally substantially cheaper. 

 

Norfolk Broads Direct don't use these engines. It fits Perkins units which are (someone will correct me if I am wrong) often the same units as Mitsubishi. Mitsi engines are also commonly found at the heart of Vetus units.

 

The fuel efficiency of these modern engines is not significantly better than an 1960s designed BMC 1.5 and I would be staggered if many modern engines last for 40 plus years as these old BMCs have. I have no knowledge over emissions or the old units or the modern ones. 

 

Modern units are generally quieter and smoother than the old British designs. 

 

We have quite a lot of BMC parts too, including 2.5 engine circulation pumps (rocking hose muck in most parts). 

[BroadAmbition]

 and I would be staggered if many modern engines last for 40 plus years as these old BMCs have

 

I'll ask you in 2047 then

 

 

Griff

[znww5]

Having re-built a Volvo 280 outdrive a couple of years ago, I can relate to the 'value-not-added' price hikes of the main manufacturers! Every single bearing I replaced on the 280 was a bog standard industry part - costing around 20% or less of the Volvo asking price. Even things like O-rings went from pounds to pence as you went from Volvo to standard parts.

 

I suppose the bottom line is that, as far as the Kubota-based engines are concerned, a shorter supply line from a UK manufacturer should (hopefully!) be a better bet than an overseas supplier - in fact there was an interesting discussion along those lines in the thread on imported Chinese engines.

 

Oh, and the Perkins 104.19 I referred to earlier is an engine code for the Perkins MC42 4 pot normally aspirated diesel. Not knowing how long it had been out of production, I was a little concerned that parts would be an issue.

 

David

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I`d agree with Andy (Freedom) re old BMC and Perkins deisels. They may be old and outdated (and out of fashion too), but a very well re-conditioned unit WILL last a virtual lifetime. I`ve heard reports of Nannis being not very economical compared to a 4,108 or BMC 1.5, and that servicing cost are way higher,and more frequent too. Also, these old engines have lasted for decades in hire boats, so imagine how long they`d last in a much less used private craft.

 

There is another option, but finding fuel would be a major problem on the river side, and that`s to fit a petrol engine. Before you dismiss the idea as a joke, consider the benefits. An equivalent petrol unit of the same power will be smaller, lighter, and a lot quieter and smoother running.  I know several people who have boats with petrol engines, and all speak very highly of their benefits.

 

Worth a thought i say.

[Oddfellow]

One of the disadvantages of many of the modern engines is the integral injection pump; they are part of the engine moulding. On an older marine engine, the injection pump is generally a separate unit, secured to the timing system by a drive shaft and a few nuts and bolts. This provides a simple removal procedure and replacement if something needs to be maintained. OK, you may never need to maintain a new one, but life is full of what ifs.... 

 

You may be able to tell that we tend to favour the old tech. 

[LondonRascal]

While we are on the subject of engines the majority of people owning boats on the Norfolk Broads which have BMC or a Perkins engine would be happy that when they come to the boat the engine starts, that it will get them to where they wish to go over the course of the weekend or week and that when they require things like an oil change they can go to pretty much any boatyard who would help them and know the type of engine inside out.

 

Even if an engine is drinking oil or running on the hot side it is not a small expenditure to re-engine a boat not least because there is a good chance things would need to be done with the engine bearers to accommodate the new engine adding to costs.

 

I don’t subscribe to the point that a BMC or a Perkin’s engine is better than a modern engine – would people compare something like the diesel engines they had in their early Ford Cortina or Vauxhall Cavalier and say they are longer lasting or better than what is now fitted in a Mondeo or Insignia?

 

While I don’t have much against an older engine, I know that newer ones are considerably smooth and quieter the delivery of power is smother and responds faster and they don’t need to be checked daily to see if they have drunk any oil or lost any water.  You look on Monday, you look on Wednesday and come Friday the levels are the same as Monday.

 

Nothing to do with a BMC, but earlier in October when onboard Jewel of Light from Herbert Woods despite general wear items like the impeller being replaced and hoses, you went from needing over half a kettle of water to about a third of one each morning but it worked, it got the boat all over the rivers and would continue likely for many years to come which brings us back full circle – why spend thousands of pounds to replace something unless you really need to?

 

Most would not, but if you can and want smoother less worrisome boating it might well be an option, then it comes down to which engine manufacture you would like to opt for go cheaper and get something made in China you’ve never heard of, or pay more for a brand that is known?

 

Let’s face it Beta Marine and Nanni are known globally in boating communities just as Volvo Penta or Yanmar are but a business such as Scam Marine who also marinise Kubota engines are not known - but their equally not Chinese and happen to have an unfortunate name perhaps but are in Croatia.

 

So many options, so many price variables.

[Oddfellow]

We ask that you do daily engine checks because it's easier to check than to break down. This is true of any of the boats we've run which have had a variety of engines from modern Nanni and Perkins units to old BMC 2.2 diesels. 

 

The age of the engine isn't always a indicator as to the need to check. Hoses can go at any time, for instance, and believe me, you don't want to seriously overheat many Kubota engines as the heads tend to crack - particularly true of the V1505 engines. A bare head will cost in excess of £900. 

 

My preference for an older engine is it's resilience to abuse which is an important factor in hire. I would find it very difficult to justify putting an old engine into a new build, but am not likely to reengine an old BMC powered boat with a new unit. 

[sos247]

Hi David (znwww5)

Most people have answered with a great deal of information already but I just thought I would add in a couple of extra points.

The Kubota based engine has performed very well on the inland water ways so they grabbed a large market share when the BMC 1.5 & Perkins were discontinued being used in the Uk/Europe due to emissions (new boats etc) We actually supply the Beta and if you want to see some being installed this winter just call by the yard I.e. Ludham bridge boatyard. (note - I'm normally about towards the mid to end of each week.

However there isn't really a bad engine produced today it's generally poor maintenance , incorrect applications or incorrect drive lines etc fitted.

A great deal of the design work on this mentioned Perkins Mc42 (104.19) was carried out by my myself & another Duffields engineer Mac Digman. I was the production manager for several years, however when Perkins decided to no longer be directly involved with marine engines the dealerships all changed, sadly the founder of Duffields died so everything changed.

NBD were a big customer (Len Funnell) so they decided to purchase all the core castings etc plus now build them in Wroxham to keep their fleet the same (only a few each year)

They hold most spares if you are in a muddle or the agent is a company called Diperk. The base unit however is not known locally as these were ' Shibaura' , but the company started in 1950 so you would expect someone to know about them! Parts books and manuals were all made by Perkins as they were hoping this engine it would replace the 4.108 at the time.

Generally if an engine bay is clean, bilge tray empty of any oil, wires & pipe work all clipped up and neat etc. Plus some service history available etc, it would then a give a clue to how good/reliable the engine is......We know the Kubota based 2ltr engines can go to 16,000hrs BEFORE and major over hauls are done however, due to modern day parts & labour costs it's normally just worth buying new with a extended warranty etc. It just depends on what you what as a owner.....

Hope this helps a bit more

Kindest regards

Jason

LBBY / SOS 247

[znww5]

That's all very interesting. So basically as long as you stick to the known names and can see a convincing service history and tidy intallation, engines are pretty good. The only other factor being whether to go for older (and therefore less refined) engines with a long track record, or a more recent and therefore smoother Kubota based design.

 

I'm hoping to get up to the broads in a couple of weeks, but my first foray will be to take a look at a couple of small Volvo powered boats this weekend in the West country. So its MD22 vs 2003T before I take on the Kubota/Perkins boats later on.

 

Thanks very much again to all for taking the time to offer advice - now the difficult work starts!

 

 

David

[Oddfellow]

The Volvo MD22 is not a Volvo engine. It is a Volvo badged Perkins Prima. The Prima was supplied as either (approximately) 50hp or 59hp units (without turbos) and were used in Montego diesels, Sherpa vans and were occasionally chosen to re-engine Landrovers. 

 

Jason at LBBY knows about these engines. We run one in Absolute Freedom our Aquafibre 38LW married to a Velvet Drive gearbox using a high-defection drive plate. 

[sos247]

The old Volvo MD22........ it was originally based on a BRitish Leyland petrol 2ltr block engine i.e the old Princess car had the petrols etc.

Perkins had the contract to convert to diesel and this is why it was used in the new Rover Montegos, Sherpas etc. Advertised as the first diesel engine that would do 100mph & 100mpg....(not at the same time!)

Perkins then introduced it as a marine engine

Prima M50 50hp @ 3000 rpm

Prima M60 60hp @ 4000 rpm

Prima M80 78hp @ 4500 rpm

Basically they didn't do well on various applications except when they were connected to an hydraulic drive, i.e. so no torsional or drive thrust got to the engine. This was mainly due to its very light flywheel,

alloy head & lightweight design.

It the Porter & HAylett contract they lasted reasonable well but just not as good as the Kubota units.

Volvo then purchased the rights to everything related to the Perkins marine business and sold them via their worldwide network. Several modifications were done but they never really appeared on the inland waterways hire business.

Also Andy its just reminded me that you still owe me a starter motor!!! I could do with this next year as i need sell this stock engine, its all ready to be assembled when we have a quiet spell!!...!

Panks can supply one but as we already found out on the day you collected my one they are close to £400!!!!

It has to be a marine unit as my stock engine stays standard and as it left the PErkins factory......keep me posted,mbut i did technically help you out on the day and saved you losing a hire, so hopefully you can sort this. bud.

Regards

Jason

[Jbx5]

Hi David we have just sold our Falcon Capriole 27 with a Volvo MD 22. (only 1200 hrs on the clock)

 

Although we were a bit sceptical at first it turned out to be a great engine.

 

5 years approx 500 hours it never missed a beat and so economical.

 

I cant even remember having to top up water/ oil between services (done by LBBY every year).

 

It may be not quite as refined as the more modern engines but if its been looked after it wont let you down.

 

Good luck with your boat hunting

 

John

 

 

 

 

[sos247]

Oops i double posted is was still on my screen from this morning !! Sorry for confusion!!

But the ps is extra!!

Regards

Jason

Ps note Volvo did also use the "md22" model number twice over the years with different base units so thats causes extra fun now & again!!

[znww5]

Two types of MD22, well that makes life easy ;-) 

 

BTW the double posting was very useful as I had only just turned the 'auto-notification' on for this thread!

 

Thanks for mentioning the BL Maestro origins of the MD22, I had come across that nugget several weeks ago but it had been completely buried by all the other tech data I was unearthing.

[Oddfellow]

Also Andy its just reminded me that you still owe me a starter motor!!! I could do with this next year as i need sell this stock engine, its all ready to be assembled when we have a quiet spell!!...!

Regards

Jason

Bugger! So Sorry Jason. Will get it sorted.

[znww5]

Just by way of a final question fo rthis year ;-) does anybody know what the base engine is underpinning the Volvo 2003T?

 

In my internet trawling I came across a suggestion that they may have been Peugeot based, but I was unable to find any evidence to support the idea. Obviously I'm interested in avoiding the 300% 'green paint surcharge' which you get from Volvo!

 

A very happy Christmas to all on the forum and thanks again for for all the info, views and advice.

 

David