Tolls

[senator]

And this is based on what research JM? sounds like total crap to me, espaecially as only half the power will be going through them. As to closer to the bank, get real, my props are about 12" out of centre but my boat is nearly 15' wide, that puts it a lot further away from the bank than a centre line prop on a 8' wide boat.

All your comment shows is exactly the attitude  I am talking about

 

[senator]

3 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

Strowager please dont suggest I am prejudiced.

If the only fair way is by size then explain why a toll for a dinghy is roughly a quarter of what i am paying for an 11m boat.  The figures just dont add up do they!?

 

 

 

 

 

Is this a 2.7m dinghy we are talking about? just asking

[JennyMorgan]

Senator, I wrote that they have the potential. A subject for research I have no doubt! Your answer re half the power is probably not accurate as pitch has to be a factor. Anyway, it wasn't me who made the original suggestion but I do think it has some meat on the bone. The original suggestion was thrown out at a previous toll review but only because it was thought too complex a subject for consideration by the committee.

Your comment about your prop spacing is perfectly valid. Fifteen foot beam, wow!!

[dnks34]

Senator it could have been, cant remember it cost to much to toll it so got rid of it!!! 

 

[JennyMorgan]

At the end of the day I'm playing devil's advocate on this one, re twin props, because it's a subject that has been raised at toll reviews and will, I have no doubt, rear its head in the future. I'm no longer involved with the BA but I have no doubt that sooner or later, in an effort to raise tolls by creating a further classification, the question of engine size, even prop configuration, will eventually raise its head. Fortunately it will be down to wiser, more informed folk than myself to decide the outcome!!

[senator]

Has about as much basis in fact as bigger sails reducing the amount of wind available for wind pumps and so necessitating greater electricity usage for the pumps. Sails should therefore be tolled by size regardless of the boat they are on.

The BA will look to toll (tax) anything they can get away with and if they can find enough people jealous enough to insist that just because a boat cost more it should be Tolled more, they will try it. As I say, can't wait to see the exodus when it happens.

Affordability is irrelevant, being ripped off is something no one likes.

[JennyMorgan]

Just for the record, Senator, I am not in the least bit envious of those who own big motor boats, or indeed more expensive boats than mine. In any case that would probably be 85% of all motor cruisers on the Broads! Since I choose to live here I find that a day/camping boat gives me far more joy than any of the bigger boats that I have owned. As for your comment 'Affordability is irrelevant, being ripped off is something no one likes', perfectly true. As an owner of a waterside property who pays top of the pile council tax just because of my location I do appreciate your thoughts regarding value demanding higher charges. Nevertheless I consider that the tolls for smaller boats, when compared to large motor cruisers, is far more unfair and that is nothing whatsoever to do with envy, be sure of that. Why on earth should I be envious of something that I have no wish to own?

[senator]

There are always people jealous of others JM, plenty will be jealous of your two boats and residence. 

Put a Ferrari and a Ford next to each other on the street and see which one gets a key run up it. All the BA need to do is find the type of Boat that has the most reaching for a hypothetical key and they will believe they can charge at will.

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, senator said:

And this is based on what research JM? sounds like total crap to me, especially as only half the power will be going through them. As to closer to the bank, get real, my props are about 12" out of centre but my boat is nearly 15' wide, that puts it a lot further away from the bank than a centre line prop on a 8' wide boat.

All your comment shows is exactly the attitude  I am talking about

 

Nicely put Senator....

Also, if people are trying to imply that twin screw cruisers are eroding the rivers more than singles, how about the deeper drafts of sailing cruisers ? (especially when they frequently touch bottom.)

As I said, personal prejudice may be denied, but it's very prevalent, as clearly shown on this thread.

I apologise for wrongly assuming that "Brundall Trundle" was an insult, it sounded much in the same vein as the other chant, "Bling Boat".

I quite agree that the current BA toll is partially unfair to very small craft, but that's mainly because of the extraordinary hike when one clamps a tiny outboard on the back. A three metre inflatable's toll then almost triples from under £40 to almost £100, a ridiculous amount.

[ChrisB]

Maybe bhp breaks? Below 20hp, 20 to 40, 40 to 80 etc. Plus a proportional increase for oil burners for their extra polution (no dpf) plus an increase as boats go up in size, possibilities are endless. 

[Guest]

Why should an 80hp pay more than a 20hp ?

Or even why should a 30hp pay more than a 20 ?

[senator]

You can only sensibly charge for the HP used which is relevant to speed. My boat has 740hp, if the BA are happy for me to plough 12 tons around at 30 knots then that is fair enough, I will accept that I am causing more environmental damage than someone drifting around at 6 knots using 50 hp. 

Unfortunately I am only allowed to go 6 knots which uses a tiny proportion of my engine power, due to hull length it is probably less than a 30' ex hire boat. my engines are ticking over so much quieter than the 30' ex hire. and they are more than likely better maintained and cleaner.

So on what basis should I pay more than a 1.5 BMC on a 30' ex hire other than actual water volume occupied

 

[JennyMorgan]

Regarding Bling Boats, a tongue in cheek catch phrase. much the same as Rag & Stick or even Bath Tubs. 

Re horse power, surely a bigger prop, greater torque and probably greater depth will create greater disturbance than a smaller engine?

Re depths required by sailing boats, in most cases about the same as a Broom Bling Boat, about 3'6".

Haven't we been down this train of thought before? 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Regarding Bling Boats, a tongue in cheek catch phrase. much the same as Rag & Stick or even Bath Tubs. 

Re horse power, surely a bigger prop, greater torque and probably greater depth will create greater disturbance than a smaller engine?

Re depths required by sailing boats, in most cases about the same as a Broom Bling Boat, about 3'6".

Haven't we been down this train of thought before? 

 

The hydro dynamics of prop design are quite specific, and in fact at a set speed of say 6 knots, the larger the prop, the lower the revs and the less cavitation and less "disturbance" of the water.

We have indeed been down this train of thought before, but misconceptions live on....

[senator]

Many Times JM, that is exactly the problem. 

Little experiment for you, fill up your bath, put a whole hand in flat and move the water slowly around till it circulates. Now put one finger in and try and move the same amount of water around. you are going to have to move the same anount of water to move the same size boat no matter the engine power.

Which one causes the most turbulence?

All you are doing is inventing facts to try and justify prejudice.

[JennyMorgan]

Senator, I asked the question, thank you for the answer.

[MauriceMynah]

"but misconceptions live on"

They sure do! I could perhaps accept that  [HP per square metre] over [length over beam] times draft might give a meaningfull figure to base a toll on, but who would be rewsponsible for doing the sums? Easier just to use either length or square meterage.

On the subject of predudice... Yes I am. I am predudice in favour of the Norfolk Broads over Bognor Regis as a holiday destination. But am I predudice on the subject of boats... Yes! I wouldn't have a wooden saily (sorry Poppy et al) I wouldn't want a number of different styles of boat. There's nothing wrong with these predudices, but I'd like to think that I'd never critise anyone for holding different preduces (Except perhaps Peter   ) except in fun and friendly banter.

Are there boats that are unsuitable for the broads? No, or at least not within the limits as defined by the BA.

If a boat is capable of obeying the speed limits, then it's suitable. If in addition the owner/hirer is happy with his/her choice then it is even more suitable!

[JennyMorgan]

Wise words, John. If an owner is prepared to accept the limitations imposed by his/her choice of boat then so be it. 

[Guest]

Good point MM, "Prejudice" means different things to different people.

My use of the word on here is where it is taken to the point of disrespecting other people for their personal preferences, and trying to rubbish their choice.

I wouldn't keep a traditional Broads wooden cruiser even if it was given to me, but I love the sight of them, and I'm most grateful to the owners that are willing to look after them at their own expense.

Likewise, I'm too old now to run a sailing cruiser, but I still love the sight of one ghosting along the river.

My personal preference is a cheapo tupperware motor cruiser, but the Broads would be a terribly dull place if that was only type of boat on it.

[Poppy]

Prejudice, Jealousy?  I'm convinced that a few mistake banter for both from time to time. Sadly, it's usually the same people...

I know that when we 'raggies' encounter prejudice, it's based on jealousy - because they don't know how to sail 

[senator]

All for Banter Poppy but Banter doesn't involve serious calls for extra tolls on someone else's boat.

And I also think you are absolutely correct, if the Raggies learned to sail it would be great 

[quo vadis]

58 minutes ago, senator said:

Many Times JM, that is exactly the problem. 

Little experiment for you, fill up your bath, put a whole hand in flat and move the water slowly around till it circulates. Now put one finger in and try and move the same amount of water around. you are going to have to move the same anount of water to move the same size boat no matter the engine power.

Which one causes the most turbulence?

All you are doing is inventing facts to try and justify prejudice.

Now the wife is angry water all over the bathroom floor Again!!!!

[dnks34]

Lets put the term prejudice aside and accept that its just differing opinions.

Put simply a boat doesnt need more than one engine to do its job (inland atleast) therefore a 2nd engine is a luxury item and we normally pay extra somewhere for having that luxury item.  (Just ask the government what they think about female sanitary products and you will see where im coming from!!!) I dont agree with that btw. 

Lets not forget there are many older less valuable twins on the broads so this isnt jelousy either.

If twins had been tolled at a higher rate from dot would a difference of   a decent pair of deck shoes stopped a buyer purchasing a twin if thats what they wanted? I doubt it.

Im not a fan of anyone being ripped off but in this case thats not how I see it.  I see at as all good things eventually come to an end. 

Ive got to say that it is coming accross to me that owners of these expensive vessels think they have been doing the BA and other boat owners a favour by bringing these vessels to the broads and paying into the system, and lets face it the toll increase these folk might be faced with might only be about as much as the cost of fuel to get out of Lowestoft Harbour.  At least they can move their boats elsewhere!!  What about those who cant fall back on that option when they dont like what its costing, sure abandon us when the going gets tough and leave us wide open to having to pay even more !! :-)

 

 

 

[MauriceMynah]

I was going to add that Mrs JM is cross because now there's water all over the living room carpet in front of the fire...

But I won't cos that really would get me a slap! :)

[senator]

What about Bow thrusters Dnks34, surely these are not only a luxury but, as they move water sideways, likely to wash away all of the banks, houses and any wildlife left that hasn't been poisoned by those boats that use petrol and as such produce Carbon monoxide?

New campaign, any boats with bow thrusters to pay triple the toll?