Tolls

[JennyMorgan]

9 minutes ago, BroadScot said:

Wow! 200 replies....and counting! 

If nowt else, the yearly TOLL debate sure makes for interesting reading !

Iain

Even if somewhat repetitive!! Especially by those defending their corner

[Jonathan]

And no-one has suggested how to charge for steam power or paddle-steamer propulsion yet!

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Even if somewhat repetitive!! Especially by those defending their corner

...from the ones repetitively attacking their corner....

[senator]

Coal is most definitely out 

[BroadScot]

9 minutes ago, senator said:

Coal is most definitely out 

Boo.....I like steam power and all the smells that goes with it! 

[senator]

How are you going to get an open fire through BSS?

[BroadScot]

1 minute ago, senator said:

How are you going to get an open fire through BSS?

Simples...use one of the "Easily" accessible Richos Fire Extinguishers! 

[BroadScot]

Sorry folks going off topic, but this is the FIRST day since my abortive holiday on the Broads last month, I have felt well. 

 

Iain.

[riyadhcrew]

Glad you're feeling better Iain.

[dnks34]

7 hours ago, Strowager said:

So many "good" reasons why other people boats should be charged more......

I've just thought of another one,

...most of the "suitable" Broads craft, like ex-hire cruisers, are often far more luxurious inside than their seagoing counterparts, length for length.

Consequently, many are well used as second home "country cottages", providing luxurious accommodation, whether moored at their base marina or out on the system.

Those owners get far more value for money with their toll, perhaps they should pay more as well ?

The bottom line for me is that I wouldn't want any other toll payer to subsidise my tolls, I'm quite happy to pay my fair share, (as the situation does exist at the moment, based on size.)

 

Speaking as an ex hire broads built cruiser owner I want to assure all forum members that I do not live in the lap of luxury whilst on my boat.  I have to flush my toilet(s) by hand, i often wake up to water dripping onto my head (coming from god knows where) my cooker looks like it was reclaimed from an ex council house and the hull is covered in little knocks and dings from its punishment on hire,oh and it caught fire once.........i should get a discount for putting up with all this surely!! 

 

[senator]

You have a real fire? Now that is luxury 

[JennyMorgan]

The rise is more than we thought, at least for private boats! I lifted the following off the BA's Blog:

Navigation Committee proposes reduction in hire boat mutliplier

 

Navigation Committee members today came forward with their own proposal to recommend to the Broads Authority that tolls income should increase by 4.5% but that the multiplier paid by hire boat operators should be lowered.

Members examined a range of options from Broads Authority officers for the setting of tolls for 2016/17 but formulated a new proposal that would see most of the work programme retained but included a reduction in the hire boat multiplier from 2.62 to 2.55.

Concerns were raised about the ongoing decline in hire boats on the Broads and information from the Broads Hire Boat Federation that another 20 to 30 boats are likely to leave the industry next year.

The result of changing the multiplier means a 2.3% increase for hire boat tolls and a 5.8% increase for private boats.

If the proposal is adopted by the Broads Authority at its meeting on 20 November the planned removal of the hazardous Dickey Works at the entrance to Breydon Water would be postponed. 

However the increase would fund other programmed work for the benefit of the boating community, including the much-demanded continuation of the Hickling project, the renewal of channel markers across Breydon Water, the use of contractors to assist with tree clearance and implementing the mooring and piling refurbishment programme.

[JennyMorgan]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/environment/rise_in_broads_boat_tolls_is_approved_1_4320497

[Labrador]

Triple the toll on any boat that can't navigate Potter bridge, will make the BA fabulously rich

[JennyMorgan]

Coincidental to the toll hike?

http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/farming/spending_review_how_will_defra_cuts_affect_east_anglia_s_rural_businesses_and_countryside_1_4316282

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

The only fair way to toll EVERY different type of boat is by individual size, being by per square metre, based on length x beam. It`s the simplest way,  Draught is irrelavent, as is height, performance etc as it`s YOUR choice of what type of boat you have. These ideas of taxing by engine power, sail area, location of props and shafts etc etc are all complete rubbish. You will only ever be occupying a fixed amount of water between your boats max extremities, and at a max of 6mph, so that is what your toll should be based on. We don`t live in a perfect world, so let`s have a reasonably balanced system for toll collection.

One other thing to consider, if the toll system was to dramtically change, and be based on a million different scenarios, just think how happy the BA would be when they have to set up yet another unnessecary quango of overpayed beaurotwatts to implement and collect thousands of different toll rates. And who do you think is going to pay for them, and at what pecentage increase to tolls?.

No, the simplest way should be by per meter squared. As Alexander says ................ SIMPLES 

[MauriceMynah]

I agree Speedtriple.

The cheapest way is to keep it as it is. If it were changed in any great way the price would soar for the great majority, giving the BA not just a nice bonus, but increasing any future rises.

However if change it must then I vote it be based on CUBIC VOLUME, that being ... 'Tip of bowsprit to end of straightened rudder/outboard/swimdeck' times 'the beam at widest point' times 'the tip of the erected mast to the bottom of the keel (lowered to its greatest depth)

[senator]

Much as I love the idea I have a feeling that it might face some opposition from people who have friends within the secret society called the BA.

Every boat, whatever the propulsion, should be charged the same rate and on a length only basis. how much simpler can it get.

Why does the width matter, with exception to the very, very few BA moorings that are stern to the width makes no difference at all to the BA, marinas yes but BA no.

Scrap the multiplier for Hire companies, after all they are a business that directly benefits the Broads area, in any other form of commerce they would have negotiated a reduction from the standard rate, certainly not an increased payment.

Make up the balance by charging any currently subsidised craft the same price as everything else. 

[JennyMorgan]

Displacement is an issue worth considering. The undertow created by a passing boat does matter. I used to have a 27' estuary boat, not long but she was beefy beneath the waterline and swung a relatively large prop. When we went along the New Cut, for example, it was very apparent that that undertow pulled at the banks, witness the cloud of silt as we passed. When I sail along the New Cut, no problems, no silt cloud drawn from the bank. There is no easy answer to the question of tolls but over simplification is not, in my opinion, the best answer. As for the boatyard multiplier, very fair, after all the yards are making money out of the Broads, indeed some are making a huge amount. . 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, senator said:

.....Scrap the multiplier for Hire companies, after all they are a business that directly benefits the Broads area, in any other form of commerce they would have negotiated a reduction from the standard rate, certainly not an increased payment. Make up the balance by charging any currently subsidised craft the same price as everything else. 

I totally agree with the fairness of charging tolls based on size, as it is the fairest measure of a boat's proportional occupation of BA and navigation facilities.

I don't agree with abandoning the hire craft multiplier though.

Privately tolled craft outnumber hire craft by a factor of more than ten to one, so even with the current multiplier, the ten thousand private craft already pay the greater part of the BA's total toll account.

In reality, it is this great number of private toll payers that bear the brunt of the total toll overheads, in return for their far smaller usage of facilities.

Yes, that's their choice, but in practical terms it's unavoidable for them, because few private owners can get enough leisure time to be out on their boats as much as any hire craft, which has to be used almost every week to be commercially viable.

As has been raised many times before, hire companies can pass on the toll costs to their customers in their essential overheads, a tiny percentage on the cost of a week's hire, yet it is the hire business's only payment towards the running and upkeep of  the very infrastructure that attracts their customers in the first place.

[senator]

Definitely two sides to the same argument but I know if I was a hire company I would be putting forward the revenue generated within the Broads area by the tourists attracted by their boats.

Flip side I suppose would be there are a damn sight more caravan's, B&B rooms and holiday let apartments than boats and the BA does not have to do anything for these but the infrastructure of the Broads needs to exist anyway to support the private boats.

If you then go to the argument that the hire boats use the facility's more so should pay more you go back to the argument that any boat that can't fit under Yarmouth bridges should pay less as they are using less facility's. That will run out the argument that it is their own choice to have a boat that doesn't fit but then it is everyone's choice not to use their boat 7 days a week 365 days a year, as they are perfectly entitled to do.

Remember there are now far more private boats than hire boats on the Broads so a simple adjustment to remove subsidies from those boats currently not paying the real rate paid by motor boats would more than make up the shortfall from the removal of hire multiplier.

 

[dnks34]

Senator which are the boats that you suggest are currently subsidised?! Are you talking about sailing boats? 

[senator]

Any boat that does not pay the same rate as the toll given for length x width. there should be no difference for propulsion, sail/motor/oars and why is there a different rate if your boat is smaller, get rid of the upto 5 m2 or 7 m2 or whatever other size they choose.

All boats should be exactly the same preferably by length only as this is the only bit that matters against the bank, why would it be right for a 60' narrow boat to be able to take up the moorings of two 30' broads cruisers but still pay the same toll by virtue of being half the width?

[senator]

remember you are up against a master human psychologist, would make it a lot harder for him if there were no groups to set at each others throats and all toll payers spoke with one voice

 

[JennyMorgan]

Since mooring stern-to is so often the way in Broadland then perhaps a 15' beam boat should pay 33% more than a 10' beam boat of the same length? Too many variables, I agree, but no one size fits all solution either.

Personally I don't see mooring as being the criteria, more that the impact on both the environment and the navigation itself be the arbiter. For example I see an argument for penalising diesel usage, not that I expect much support!!