TheQ

As a rough outline my System, is planned to be, ( plug = Male exposed pins, Socket= Female concealed recepticles) 32A Plug--- 16Amp Fuse- 16A Socket (this adaptor if required) or 13A Plug--- 16A Cable- 16A Socket ( this adaptor if required) 16A plug to 16A cable to 16A Socket --- to 16A plug ( there will be 1 16A Plug each side of the boat) 16A Socket to 3 Position switch, Port input --- OFF --- Starboard input. From Switch to the equivalent of this on a Panel. followed by From the polarity change over switch to the double pole RCD and mains Breaker. And from there to the next unit, which isn't quite decided yet as I haven't yet chosen the inverter, many, but not all, have pass through and automatically switch themselves off when mains is present. So I may or may not need a mains selector switch to choose inverter or shore power. From there to the ring main, I have considered a star mains system but for where I want sockets a Ring is more convienent.

At least it's shorter than the trees, a few beaver might help in that direction as well providing they fell them off of the main river....

Since no one else has posted anything about electrickery, here's something that is taken from SHORELINE MARINE ELECTRONICS page on Earthing, which is relevant to Vaughans' and my posts on the CO thread. This is what I intend to be working from, with reference to the regulation liinks, shown further down this post. On another (non broads web site) it was interesting to note the USA regulations say, their mains Earth and DC earth must be bonded together. Earthing Guidance Notes... Information about earthing in marinas, small boats, houseboats ............................................................................................. Earthing and electrical safety The practice of omitting the AC earth to craft earth connection (commonly referred to as equipotential bonding) is only allowed for small pleasure boats in the EU area (EN ISO13297). This practice is not permissible on houseboats in the UK, which are covered by a more stringent electrical safety standard (BS7671, which also applies to electrical installations on dry land). In the USA completely different regulations regarding RCD usage apply. A recent study of RCD reliability published in 2007 by the UK Electrical Safety Council found that about 3% of RCDs they tested did not work. (In this context 'did not work' translates to 'unable to protect against lethal electric shock'). Other studies find consistent results. The UK Electrical Safety Council report on RCD reliability is available here... RCD reliability It is simply not safe to rely on an RCD as the sole means of protection against electric shock; especially in a high-risk area such as a boat in a marina. Equipotential earth bonding is also required; just like in our homes on dry land. The safest option is to connect the AC earth to the craft's earth and fit a robust galvanic isolator or isolation transformer to mitigate any galvanic corrosion. ............................................................................................. Conflicting Philosophies for electrical safety There is some controversy as to why ISO 13297 allows the use of RCDs as the sole means of protection against electric shock without any other safeguards such as equipotential bonding (i.e. connecting AC protective earth to craft earth). All other electrical safety standards expressly forbid the use of RCDs as a sole means of protection against electric shock, and insist on equipotential bonding, especially in high risk areas. Here is the relevant paragraph from EN ISO 13297 (which applies only to small pleasure craft in the EU area) ISO 13297 section 4.2 The protective conductor shall be connected to the craft's d.c. negative ground (earth) as close as practicable to the battery (d.c.) negative terminal. NOTE: If an RCD (whole-craft residual current device) or an isolating transformer is installed in the main supply circuit of the a.c. system (see Section 8.2), the negative ground terminal of the d.c. Systems need not be connected to the a.c. shore ground (protective conductor) This particular part of ISO 13297 puts electrical safety totally in the hands of the RCD, but RCDs are not 100% reliable. Using an RCD alone without protective earthing is not acceptable on dry land or in a houseboat. For example BS7671 section 415.1.2 states that; The use of RCDs is not recognised as a sole means of protection and does not obviate the need to apply one of the protective measures specified in Sections 411 to 414 The only measure that can realistically be applied here is Section 411 which requires that fault protection is provided by protective earthing, protective equipotential bonding and automatic disconnection in case of a fault... (BS 7671 411.1) Note that BS 7671 is the UK version of the international standard EN 60364 electrical installation for buildings which covers the EU area. It has sections applicable to marinas and houseboats but is not applicable to small pleasure boats. However, the general philosophy of how to use mains electricity safely is consistent throughout the EU area; a) use good quality earthing and Equipotential bonding. an RCD provides additional protection, particularly in high risk areas. c) RCDs are not allowed as a sole means of protection. ............................................................................................. Seems inconsistent ? Why ? The reason behind this earthing inconsistancy where EN ISO 13295 is different from all other advice is to reduce galvanic corrosion by preventing galvanic current flow from boat to shore through the (nonexistent) earth connection. However in the case where an RCD is the sole protection it does this at the expense of safety. There is a perfectly simple way to have a safe protective earth connection without increasing corrosion and that is to connect the AC protective earth to the boat earth (battery negative, engine block, any underwater metalwork etc.) and fit a galvanic isolator. or an isolating transformer which will be safe and will not increase galvanic corrosion. ............................................................................................. What are the consequences of a faulty RCD when there is no equipotential bonding ? Let's say you are in the engine room, perhaps doing some maintenance work using an electric drill or a lamp powered from the AC mains. Your boat is correctly wired in accordance with the electrical regulations for small pleasure craft (ISO 13297 etc). In order to save money on a galvanic isolator or isolating transformer your AC mains earth and the boat's earth (engine block etc) are not connected together... this is OK according to the applicable regulations, but... A fault develops in the drill or lamp and a live wire touches the engine block. This type of fault should trip the RCD on the shore power inlet, but the RCD has a fault of it's own and doesn't trip (see below for info about RCD reliability). The engine block and anything connected to it is now live. That means the DC system is now live, the prop shaft and propeller and sacrificial anodes are now live, and so the water near the boat is also live. The water around the boat will tend to conduct the live to earth but the connection is not reliable (especially on a plastic or wooden hulled boat) and is unlikely to be good enough to blow the main fuse or circuit breaker quickly enough (or at all) to protect anyone who happens to be in the water near the boat. Or a person on board who is touching the AC earth and the craft earth at the same time, maybe somebody is in the galley touching the sink (boat earth) and the fridge (AC earth)... This type of fault might kill immediately or it may go unnoticed for a long time, minutes, hours, days. Fire or electric shock are real possibilities and the longer the fault goes unnoticed the greater the chances of a serious outcome... ............................................................................................. So what's the difference when equipotential bonding (earthing) is fitted ? Go back to the previous scene in the engine room... if the AC earth was bonded to the boat earth (engine block etc) as soon as the live wire touches the engine block a fuse will blow (or the main circuit breaker in the shore power outlet). This disconnects the power immediately. ... No danger... This has at least two valuable consequences, the first is that it immediately removes any dangerous voltage from the faulty item and therefore the engine block etc don't become live. The second is that it lets you know something is wrong... mmm drill doesn't work... why ? Even if the RCD and all the fuses or circuit breakers were faulty and the main earth connection at the shore power outlet is faulty as well, there is a much reduced danger when equipotential bonding is fitted because all the exposed metalwork and the water around the boat are at the same potential. ............................................................................................. How reliable are RCDs ? There have been at least three recent studies on RCD reliability. The following is quoted from a 2007 report on RCD reliability from the Electrical Safety Council in the UK. These studies were all done in domestic houses and all produced a failure rate of about 3 per hundred units tested. The Electrical Safety Council's own survey during 2006 of approx 600 RCDs in domestic properties showed a failure rate of 2.8 per hundred tested. (ref The Reliability of RCDs in Domestic Properties, ERA Report Number: 2007-0274, produced for the Electrical Safety Council 2007) From research published in Italy in 1996, electromechanical RCDs in Italian residential properties had an average failure rate of 7.1%. When the RCDs were subject to regular testing, the figure fell to 2.8% From the available evidence, the primary mode of failure of the electromechanical RCDs tested in Italy was ingress of fine particles of dust and moisture causing the moving components within the RCDs to stick or to operate more slowly than intended. (Ref. Cantarella G., Caressin V., Tammasini R., Quality of Residual Current Operated Circuit Breakers, ETEP. Vol. 6, No. 3, pp 149-156, 1996) Electronic RCD manufacturers claim that their products are more reliable than electromechanical RCDs,. However, research carried out in the US in 2001 suggests that the reliability of electronic RCDs may be similar to that of electromechanical RCDs, The RCD failures in the US were attributed to the failure of electronic components. The failure rates were higher in cities with conditions of high humidity, which may not be relevant to conditions found in the UK. (Ref. GFCI Field Test Survey Report, NEMA, Rosslyn, USA, Jan 2001) Note that the above failure rates where in nice dry houses, increased failure rates are noted due to humidity and moisture ingress. There is no data for marinas available however it seems reasonably to assume failure rates will be the same as or higher than in domestic properties on dry land. The UK Electrical Safety Council report on RCD reliability is available here... RCD reliability ............................................................................................. Notes on the electrical regulations which apply to boats/P> Earthing on small craft up to 24 metres in the EU area is covered by ISO 13297. Earthing on houseboats in the UK is covered by the IEE wiring regulations (BS7671). The BMEA code of practice for electrical and electronic installations on small craft incorporates ISO 13297 and many other standards which are relevant to small pleasure craft (up to 24 metres) in the EU area. The code of practice is available from BMEA The Institute of Engineering and Technology (IET) have written a number of articles explaining BS7671 wiring regulations applicable to marinas, houseboats and pleasure craft... houseboat regulations IET article marina regulations IET article for a full list of articles on the IET website... IET articles index also... IET home page also see the... boat safety scheme For copyright reasons we cant reproduce the full text of the regulations, however here are interpretations of some of the relevant points. BS7671 (the IEE wiring regulations) applies to the marina wiring, socket outlets etc, and also to the internal wiring of houseboats (i.e. permanently moored residential boats supplied from a shore power socket outlet). Mains power outlets in UK marinas will normally have a 30mA RCD fitted in accordance with BS7671 section 709. This is because marinas are considered areas of increased risk of electric shock (ref BS7671 section 709.512.2). BS7671 sensibly requires that all exposed metalwork of a houseboat, including metal parts in electrical contact with the water, be bonded to earth with a specified minimum impedance. This is just as in a land-based residence where all exposed metalwork (e.g. gas, hot water, cold water, central heating pipes metal sinks and any structural metalwork) must be connected together. This is known as protective earthing and protective equipotential bonding. (BS7671 chapter 41 and Fig 709.1). Equipotential bonding in conjunction with an RCD and fuse or circuit breaker provides the best protection against electric shock or fire hazard to people in and around a building or boat. This is particularly relevant in wet areas and in the case of a boat/marina it will afford protection to anyone in the water near the boat as well as people on the boat or jetty. The anomaly where small craft covered by EN ISO 13295 are exempt from equipotential bonding (provided an RCD is correctly fitted) is a point of controversy with some electrical engineers who believe the relatively small cost saved by not fitting a galvanic isolator does not justify the reduction in safety.

The Fleabay had a Horning Sailing club Car grill badge a couple of months back, They wanted About £50 for it, the strange thing was it was on sale from Italy!

I'd been thinking about how to start this thread over the weekend, since Vaughan's offer to discuss my electrical set up. Since then other electrical questions have appeared in the CO thread, so I've started this thread to discuss Mains electrical problems open to anyones questions. If the Mod's or original posters of the electrical questions would like to move them to this thread, then please do. Once they are dealt with, I'll post the proposed layout of electrics for my boat and we can tear that apart.

I saw her being towed past the other day ( on her way back from LBBY?) Hopefully we'll see her in Horning regatta next year. If not at some previous event.

Part 2 of my answer, if the port tack does his 720 turn then the protest is cancelled, if port tack boat does not then both boats would be disqualified.

That in itself is now a disqualification offence, i.e. failure to avoid a collision, the correct procedure today is to tack to avoid the collision , and call protest and raise a red flag.

As someone who has worked with Electricity from 0V to 50,000V, Current less than 1uA through to effectively unlimited current (live national grid). I much prefer to work with electricity, it takes a lot to get it to escape it's little plastic tubes and unless using extremely high voltages (unlikely in a boat) it doesn't leap out and get you. Which is why my boat is all electric except the generator. This means, there will be times when I run the generator on a mooring, although it is in a silent pack and shortly I'll install even more sound insulation as the exhaust pipe itself is letting the noise out ( left over insulation from a jet engine test bay!!). The Diesel generator will produce a lot less smoke and other substances, as it's modern and only got 150 hours on the clock unlike the positively ancient BMC 1500 it replaced. Oh and the system will be properly installed, I even have the bits to put a 16a fuse in the 32A to 16 A cable adaptor ( imediately after the 32a PLUG)

which probably takes us back to the begining of this thread....

Not being able to get mains gas, we have the luxury of paying 3 times as much for gas, to not be bothered by BG. As the House is 110 years old we don't have gas or electricity cupboards either.

We've already got a magnetic filter fitted, the system will probably be flushed more than once from different drains around the system. Which reminds me, I need to get another radiator / drain point key, that way the old one will turn up.

It's Due back this afternoon, and fully returning at the weekend, it's just gone on holiday to Portugal where it's nice and hot.

NereuQ NereuQ NereuQ ?

Yes i've been asked to spell my Name many millions of times. What Also happens is they reverse my Surname and Christian name, I've had to send an email to Edward Williams insurance every year since I've been with them. and No i'm not playing multiple guesses on my Surname... also My middle name is normally used as a Surname.

Now that is a good question.

yep although I later converted it to the much? less smoke producing 20 to 1

We have a parlimentary sytem in the UK the PM is just chairman of the cabinet and has no executive authority on His/her own. Even though certain PMs in the past tried to make it seem otherwise. There is no need to spend vast sums of money on a PM election, when all (most of the time) of the cabinet are elected.

Charlessa wins the Banana!! For many years I thought it was an old family name, but then I was told it was someone My parents knew, but I have never found any reference to it being used as a name anywhere. I now have my suspicions it was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Keren, Qu often being used as a translation of the K, Ch(Hard C), KH of Arabic into English. In which My Grandfather was involved.

I was asked to move my boat at the sailing club which had the engine running, due to the smoke cloud,..... A British seagull 102CC

Wildly wrong, please review all my previous comments !!!

In the world of dog showing, when you breed a dog, you put your affix at the start of dogs name, when you buy a dog it goes at the end. Hence we had Hazelside Sanderling at Sheque ( her pet name was Amber), and from her we had Sheque Amber Glenn, Sheque Amber Crystal etc Now all the normal Affix names have long since been used, so these days people use made up names ... My wife's name is Sheila.

There are at least three languages, which use this as a word, meaning different things, but I wasn't named after any of them. Right I'm going off air for several hours., further replys to guesses later

The second one Quentin Crisp doesn't have the same vowel twice in his first name, and it's not an "A"

who he?