TheQ

Reading Grendels, notes on fuses, I Would also hope that the Electricity posts are fitted with RCDs as a fuse will not stop you being electrocuted. It's also worrying reading the post, I put almost on the top of this thread, and they report 3 in 100 RCDs do NOT trip when they are supposed to!! I must go and Investigate an Electricity post, I'll need to use one soon!!!

It would be quite possible to do, depending on whether there was room for a surface mount Plug between the wheel and Bulkhead OR if you have a flush / Slightly protruding Plug on the wheel side, whether you had room on the other side of the bulkhead for the rest of it. I've not come across this idea before Neither have I read anything in the regs that would stop it. Ah I see your picture / Avatar, if that is the boat and it's a later Elysian/ Bounty 27 then there would be room for a flush mount plug to be mounted behind the wheel in the console. (I've done away with my console, as I wanted more room in the Centre cockpit).

That explanation, linked to by LondonRascal, I don't think is too far out. I dislike the pattress (back box) shown with the picture of the mains socket, as it has open gaps in it's top surface which would allow the odd drip of water to fall in. I wouldn't expect waterproof sockets / backboxes to be used, but open tops are not needed. Personally I would go for MK brand plugs and sockets of any type where possible. Some years ago On a Open university residential course, we dissected and tested MK plugs and sockets and compared them against those bought cheap of a market. Absolutely everything on a MK plug is better quality from the plastic been much harder to melt, to the quality of the metal in the contact for conduction. Also they are generally of better design in the first place. I would add, that I am approaching this thread as someone who has fitted electrics for technical Electronic test stations, wiring in my model railway shed, and house. I have since read up on marine installations, but would bow to the experience of Vaughan or any other boatbuilder / marine electrician on this site. SInce my boat is electrically driven, I can probably fit an interlock, so I can't drive off plugged into the mains, though I can guess what will happen the day before I fit the interlock!

Not necessarily. it is the decision of the builder, whether to make the connection between 12VDC earth and 240V(230V) earth. If you read the long post I put up earlier, in the section, Conflicting Philosophies for electrical safety. You'll see there are fors and againsts for tieing the two together. This is of course in a wood or GRP boat, if you have a metal boat then yes the earths will automatically connect through the hull but you should properly make the connection somewhere for safety.

We, are just two + occasional dogs, but we chose a 4 berth centre cockpit boat. One cabin will stay made up as a bedroom, the other as the living room / kitchen. Should we have overnight guests then we have the separate cabins. Like others we chose a boat that could go anywhere on the broads. The economics are the thing, because I can do most maintenance inside and on top of the boat that does keep the costs down, but eats into cruising time. Also belonging to a sailing club, that has moorings, is cheaper than commercial moorings, but brings with it the responsibility of doing duties round the club. (and the advantage of social events)

Naughty people you should always pull by the plug not by the cable... I spent a while, repairing radio equipement where this sort of thing kept happening!!

I've just realised another oops on my rough description, in that, you need an RCD after the Inverter as well. If you look at the Change over switch you have a couple of Lights, a waterproof Junction Box, a suitable Mains switch for which they charge £50 at most a tenners value in parts. Similarly Galvanic Isolators only have at most £20 worth of parts in them yet cost £100+. Luckily with my 40 years of playing with tronics and trickery. I shall build my own, so all live equipment that is the wrong side of the RCD, will be in a waterproof control panel, that would need a screwdriver to open and will be labelled with the necessary warning signs.

Ha!!! BroadScot, Great minds think alike!! oops missed the Galvanic Isolator Just after the 3 postition switch. Vaughan your concern over Battery chargers is correct, some have their output Negative bonded to Mains earth. This would not work in my situation, so I have 4 12V CTEK battery chargers to charge each battery bank in the 48V System, they DO NOT have their negative outputs bonded to earth, so therefore have floating outputs and can be used in such a manner.

As a rough outline my System, is planned to be, ( plug = Male exposed pins, Socket= Female concealed recepticles) 32A Plug--- 16Amp Fuse- 16A Socket (this adaptor if required) or 13A Plug--- 16A Cable- 16A Socket ( this adaptor if required) 16A plug to 16A cable to 16A Socket --- to 16A plug ( there will be 1 16A Plug each side of the boat) 16A Socket to 3 Position switch, Port input --- OFF --- Starboard input. From Switch to the equivalent of this on a Panel. followed by From the polarity change over switch to the double pole RCD and mains Breaker. And from there to the next unit, which isn't quite decided yet as I haven't yet chosen the inverter, many, but not all, have pass through and automatically switch themselves off when mains is present. So I may or may not need a mains selector switch to choose inverter or shore power. From there to the ring main, I have considered a star mains system but for where I want sockets a Ring is more convienent.

At least it's shorter than the trees, a few beaver might help in that direction as well providing they fell them off of the main river....

Since no one else has posted anything about electrickery, here's something that is taken from SHORELINE MARINE ELECTRONICS page on Earthing, which is relevant to Vaughans' and my posts on the CO thread. This is what I intend to be working from, with reference to the regulation liinks, shown further down this post. On another (non broads web site) it was interesting to note the USA regulations say, their mains Earth and DC earth must be bonded together. Earthing Guidance Notes... Information about earthing in marinas, small boats, houseboats ............................................................................................. Earthing and electrical safety The practice of omitting the AC earth to craft earth connection (commonly referred to as equipotential bonding) is only allowed for small pleasure boats in the EU area (EN ISO13297). This practice is not permissible on houseboats in the UK, which are covered by a more stringent electrical safety standard (BS7671, which also applies to electrical installations on dry land). In the USA completely different regulations regarding RCD usage apply. A recent study of RCD reliability published in 2007 by the UK Electrical Safety Council found that about 3% of RCDs they tested did not work. (In this context 'did not work' translates to 'unable to protect against lethal electric shock'). Other studies find consistent results. The UK Electrical Safety Council report on RCD reliability is available here... RCD reliability It is simply not safe to rely on an RCD as the sole means of protection against electric shock; especially in a high-risk area such as a boat in a marina. Equipotential earth bonding is also required; just like in our homes on dry land. The safest option is to connect the AC earth to the craft's earth and fit a robust galvanic isolator or isolation transformer to mitigate any galvanic corrosion. ............................................................................................. Conflicting Philosophies for electrical safety There is some controversy as to why ISO 13297 allows the use of RCDs as the sole means of protection against electric shock without any other safeguards such as equipotential bonding (i.e. connecting AC protective earth to craft earth). All other electrical safety standards expressly forbid the use of RCDs as a sole means of protection against electric shock, and insist on equipotential bonding, especially in high risk areas. Here is the relevant paragraph from EN ISO 13297 (which applies only to small pleasure craft in the EU area) ISO 13297 section 4.2 The protective conductor shall be connected to the craft's d.c. negative ground (earth) as close as practicable to the battery (d.c.) negative terminal. NOTE: If an RCD (whole-craft residual current device) or an isolating transformer is installed in the main supply circuit of the a.c. system (see Section 8.2), the negative ground terminal of the d.c. Systems need not be connected to the a.c. shore ground (protective conductor) This particular part of ISO 13297 puts electrical safety totally in the hands of the RCD, but RCDs are not 100% reliable. Using an RCD alone without protective earthing is not acceptable on dry land or in a houseboat. For example BS7671 section 415.1.2 states that; The use of RCDs is not recognised as a sole means of protection and does not obviate the need to apply one of the protective measures specified in Sections 411 to 414 The only measure that can realistically be applied here is Section 411 which requires that fault protection is provided by protective earthing, protective equipotential bonding and automatic disconnection in case of a fault... (BS 7671 411.1) Note that BS 7671 is the UK version of the international standard EN 60364 electrical installation for buildings which covers the EU area. It has sections applicable to marinas and houseboats but is not applicable to small pleasure boats. However, the general philosophy of how to use mains electricity safely is consistent throughout the EU area; a) use good quality earthing and Equipotential bonding. an RCD provides additional protection, particularly in high risk areas. c) RCDs are not allowed as a sole means of protection. ............................................................................................. Seems inconsistent ? Why ? The reason behind this earthing inconsistancy where EN ISO 13295 is different from all other advice is to reduce galvanic corrosion by preventing galvanic current flow from boat to shore through the (nonexistent) earth connection. However in the case where an RCD is the sole protection it does this at the expense of safety. There is a perfectly simple way to have a safe protective earth connection without increasing corrosion and that is to connect the AC protective earth to the boat earth (battery negative, engine block, any underwater metalwork etc.) and fit a galvanic isolator. or an isolating transformer which will be safe and will not increase galvanic corrosion. ............................................................................................. What are the consequences of a faulty RCD when there is no equipotential bonding ? Let's say you are in the engine room, perhaps doing some maintenance work using an electric drill or a lamp powered from the AC mains. Your boat is correctly wired in accordance with the electrical regulations for small pleasure craft (ISO 13297 etc). In order to save money on a galvanic isolator or isolating transformer your AC mains earth and the boat's earth (engine block etc) are not connected together... this is OK according to the applicable regulations, but... A fault develops in the drill or lamp and a live wire touches the engine block. This type of fault should trip the RCD on the shore power inlet, but the RCD has a fault of it's own and doesn't trip (see below for info about RCD reliability). The engine block and anything connected to it is now live. That means the DC system is now live, the prop shaft and propeller and sacrificial anodes are now live, and so the water near the boat is also live. The water around the boat will tend to conduct the live to earth but the connection is not reliable (especially on a plastic or wooden hulled boat) and is unlikely to be good enough to blow the main fuse or circuit breaker quickly enough (or at all) to protect anyone who happens to be in the water near the boat. Or a person on board who is touching the AC earth and the craft earth at the same time, maybe somebody is in the galley touching the sink (boat earth) and the fridge (AC earth)... This type of fault might kill immediately or it may go unnoticed for a long time, minutes, hours, days. Fire or electric shock are real possibilities and the longer the fault goes unnoticed the greater the chances of a serious outcome... ............................................................................................. So what's the difference when equipotential bonding (earthing) is fitted ? Go back to the previous scene in the engine room... if the AC earth was bonded to the boat earth (engine block etc) as soon as the live wire touches the engine block a fuse will blow (or the main circuit breaker in the shore power outlet). This disconnects the power immediately. ... No danger... This has at least two valuable consequences, the first is that it immediately removes any dangerous voltage from the faulty item and therefore the engine block etc don't become live. The second is that it lets you know something is wrong... mmm drill doesn't work... why ? Even if the RCD and all the fuses or circuit breakers were faulty and the main earth connection at the shore power outlet is faulty as well, there is a much reduced danger when equipotential bonding is fitted because all the exposed metalwork and the water around the boat are at the same potential. ............................................................................................. How reliable are RCDs ? There have been at least three recent studies on RCD reliability. The following is quoted from a 2007 report on RCD reliability from the Electrical Safety Council in the UK. These studies were all done in domestic houses and all produced a failure rate of about 3 per hundred units tested. The Electrical Safety Council's own survey during 2006 of approx 600 RCDs in domestic properties showed a failure rate of 2.8 per hundred tested. (ref The Reliability of RCDs in Domestic Properties, ERA Report Number: 2007-0274, produced for the Electrical Safety Council 2007) From research published in Italy in 1996, electromechanical RCDs in Italian residential properties had an average failure rate of 7.1%. When the RCDs were subject to regular testing, the figure fell to 2.8% From the available evidence, the primary mode of failure of the electromechanical RCDs tested in Italy was ingress of fine particles of dust and moisture causing the moving components within the RCDs to stick or to operate more slowly than intended. (Ref. Cantarella G., Caressin V., Tammasini R., Quality of Residual Current Operated Circuit Breakers, ETEP. Vol. 6, No. 3, pp 149-156, 1996) Electronic RCD manufacturers claim that their products are more reliable than electromechanical RCDs,. However, research carried out in the US in 2001 suggests that the reliability of electronic RCDs may be similar to that of electromechanical RCDs, The RCD failures in the US were attributed to the failure of electronic components. The failure rates were higher in cities with conditions of high humidity, which may not be relevant to conditions found in the UK. (Ref. GFCI Field Test Survey Report, NEMA, Rosslyn, USA, Jan 2001) Note that the above failure rates where in nice dry houses, increased failure rates are noted due to humidity and moisture ingress. There is no data for marinas available however it seems reasonably to assume failure rates will be the same as or higher than in domestic properties on dry land. The UK Electrical Safety Council report on RCD reliability is available here... RCD reliability ............................................................................................. Notes on the electrical regulations which apply to boats/P> Earthing on small craft up to 24 metres in the EU area is covered by ISO 13297. Earthing on houseboats in the UK is covered by the IEE wiring regulations (BS7671). The BMEA code of practice for electrical and electronic installations on small craft incorporates ISO 13297 and many other standards which are relevant to small pleasure craft (up to 24 metres) in the EU area. The code of practice is available from BMEA The Institute of Engineering and Technology (IET) have written a number of articles explaining BS7671 wiring regulations applicable to marinas, houseboats and pleasure craft... houseboat regulations IET article marina regulations IET article for a full list of articles on the IET website... IET articles index also... IET home page also see the... boat safety scheme For copyright reasons we cant reproduce the full text of the regulations, however here are interpretations of some of the relevant points. BS7671 (the IEE wiring regulations) applies to the marina wiring, socket outlets etc, and also to the internal wiring of houseboats (i.e. permanently moored residential boats supplied from a shore power socket outlet). Mains power outlets in UK marinas will normally have a 30mA RCD fitted in accordance with BS7671 section 709. This is because marinas are considered areas of increased risk of electric shock (ref BS7671 section 709.512.2). BS7671 sensibly requires that all exposed metalwork of a houseboat, including metal parts in electrical contact with the water, be bonded to earth with a specified minimum impedance. This is just as in a land-based residence where all exposed metalwork (e.g. gas, hot water, cold water, central heating pipes metal sinks and any structural metalwork) must be connected together. This is known as protective earthing and protective equipotential bonding. (BS7671 chapter 41 and Fig 709.1). Equipotential bonding in conjunction with an RCD and fuse or circuit breaker provides the best protection against electric shock or fire hazard to people in and around a building or boat. This is particularly relevant in wet areas and in the case of a boat/marina it will afford protection to anyone in the water near the boat as well as people on the boat or jetty. The anomaly where small craft covered by EN ISO 13295 are exempt from equipotential bonding (provided an RCD is correctly fitted) is a point of controversy with some electrical engineers who believe the relatively small cost saved by not fitting a galvanic isolator does not justify the reduction in safety.

The Fleabay had a Horning Sailing club Car grill badge a couple of months back, They wanted About £50 for it, the strange thing was it was on sale from Italy!

I'd been thinking about how to start this thread over the weekend, since Vaughan's offer to discuss my electrical set up. Since then other electrical questions have appeared in the CO thread, so I've started this thread to discuss Mains electrical problems open to anyones questions. If the Mod's or original posters of the electrical questions would like to move them to this thread, then please do. Once they are dealt with, I'll post the proposed layout of electrics for my boat and we can tear that apart.

I saw her being towed past the other day ( on her way back from LBBY?) Hopefully we'll see her in Horning regatta next year. If not at some previous event.

Part 2 of my answer, if the port tack does his 720 turn then the protest is cancelled, if port tack boat does not then both boats would be disqualified.

That in itself is now a disqualification offence, i.e. failure to avoid a collision, the correct procedure today is to tack to avoid the collision , and call protest and raise a red flag.

As someone who has worked with Electricity from 0V to 50,000V, Current less than 1uA through to effectively unlimited current (live national grid). I much prefer to work with electricity, it takes a lot to get it to escape it's little plastic tubes and unless using extremely high voltages (unlikely in a boat) it doesn't leap out and get you. Which is why my boat is all electric except the generator. This means, there will be times when I run the generator on a mooring, although it is in a silent pack and shortly I'll install even more sound insulation as the exhaust pipe itself is letting the noise out ( left over insulation from a jet engine test bay!!). The Diesel generator will produce a lot less smoke and other substances, as it's modern and only got 150 hours on the clock unlike the positively ancient BMC 1500 it replaced. Oh and the system will be properly installed, I even have the bits to put a 16a fuse in the 32A to 16 A cable adaptor ( imediately after the 32a PLUG)

which probably takes us back to the begining of this thread....

Not being able to get mains gas, we have the luxury of paying 3 times as much for gas, to not be bothered by BG. As the House is 110 years old we don't have gas or electricity cupboards either.

We've already got a magnetic filter fitted, the system will probably be flushed more than once from different drains around the system. Which reminds me, I need to get another radiator / drain point key, that way the old one will turn up.

It's Due back this afternoon, and fully returning at the weekend, it's just gone on holiday to Portugal where it's nice and hot.

NereuQ NereuQ NereuQ ?

Yes i've been asked to spell my Name many millions of times. What Also happens is they reverse my Surname and Christian name, I've had to send an email to Edward Williams insurance every year since I've been with them. and No i'm not playing multiple guesses on my Surname... also My middle name is normally used as a Surname.

Now that is a good question.

yep although I later converted it to the much? less smoke producing 20 to 1