Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care

[LondonRascal]

Day Three:

Up early I was before 07:00 and got my things together to go off for a shower but upon leaving the boat met the owner of the Fairline moored on the next pontoon down who was fuming. You see he had come down the evening before to find we had moved alongside his boat - I noticed lights on when we came back from our meal but he had not come to comment on things then and was in no mood for negotiations with me now. Eventually I calmed him down, introduced myself as the new owner and apologised and we ended up shaking hands and agreeing the boat would be moved later.

Crew duly up and off to get breakfast, Fairline owner duly present to remind me and crew that we will be moving the boat. Dan arrives later from his digs and finds said owner now giving him the once over and eyeing up his diving gear - suffice to say we return after breakfast and move the boat over and now need to find another location to launch the Willaims RIB and see if it runs (which was why we had moved Independence over the night before) to allow us space on our port side to use the crane and launch the RIB.

In hindsight I think we had all taken our friendly 'Norfolk attitudes' down with us and had not taken onboard the reaction that some may have just at the mere fact a boat has been moved by hand alongside another - with masses of fenders - but then thinking about it, the same applies at Horning Staithe - some are happy to have someone alongside, some would never allow it alongside their boat.

Work was now going on once again all over, electrical, woodworking, cleaning you name it all rushing to try and get things sorted ready for a late morning lock through and into our trials. We decided not to fuel prior to departure or try to launch the RIB but just get out as soon as we could.

With as much gear stowed as we could we were 'stowed for sea' (well, sort of) and crew were briefed on use of life jackets, location of exits, fire extinguishers and so on and then given their instructions on what to do and where to go - this left Charlie and Myself up on the fly bridge. With lines let go we were off. Now something new and annoying popped up - when out of gear and you move the throttles they instantly move the actuators on the control box in engine room and thus the physical throttles on engines, but now in gear there is a pause between anything you do and it happening - over a second! This means you have to be hyper aware of what your input will do, and when to cease doing it - e.g. on port engine off port engine - the delay between you moving the arm and engine reacting and then returning arm to neutral and engine spinning down all add up. (I have since found the 258 page manual and ways you can program this delay out of the system)

Radio to Sutton Lock and permission to enter is granted, massive sea lock making Mutford Lock seem like a Canal lock in compassion. Independence's engine tone reverberating off the lock walls and using her bow and stern hydraulic thrusters we held station so we did not have the added effort of her over sizes, heavy wet lines to haul over the cleats on the floating pontoons int he lock. The lock gates slowly open - you don't get a light or a radio message to proceed out, it is just kinda obvious "gates be open and away you go".

Simon a local, ex-navy and friend of Charlies was on board and his local knowledge was great. Keeping us to starboard we picked up the channel and he was soon giving advice of what channel follow, when to turn and so on - straight out the lock and we were into Plymouth Sound -  this is sheltered by the land but despite this the wind was gusting, and whipping up the waves to a 6 to 12 foot swell. Independence was handling this as if was nothing, a sure footed hull with no slamming - up the engine RPM her bow now going down ever deeper into the swell's troughs, but despite some confusion with the smaller waves which seemed to be coming to our starboard beam it was a safe and predictable motion and everyone was wearing a large smile. Her engines now under load and movement were performing perfectly, all within ranges so we headed through towards the shore and into ahead sea and head wind and wound the engines up more and more right up to and holding her 3,000RPM max - apart from the fact at this speed she would be drinking something like 100L per hour there was no sudden increase in her coolant temperature, oil pressures stayed stable, gearboxs were looking fine (and cool) but other areas were showing not to be working - the upper helm repeater for the fire alarm system was showing alarm (there as no fire and the low helm station was fine) the speed log was not working, the auto-helm upper helm station repeater was working but the LCD display was dead. The chart plotter though was working fine and showing our position and speed over ground with GPS and all the other gauges for the engines on the upper helm were also working.

After this we decided to head out into the rough stuff - past the breakwater things got rougher as you would expect - again a confused sea where the majority of the swell was bow on, but the wind was coming from the west so the waves were being pushed towards us that way too - this meant a rolling and pitching motion that were out of sync - up, then port, down then starboard in a sort of twist - but once again no slamming. By now we were able to get her exhausts clear of the water and bury another so you would have this growl from one as the other was muted before the roll brought the other out and vice versa - again all was going well and we pushed on.

Now sometime after this the rolling motion got far more acute and we saw how our preparation for sea was not as good as should have been (but we just did not have the time) and I stopped filming and gave Dan a hand on the sundeck and down below. I then came back up to the Sundeck and left Dan in the Saloon - we were now in 18-20 foot swells clear of the headland and with winds gusting over 35Kts. As I went to get up the ladder to the fly bridge, Charlie and Simon were about to make a turn back toward the Harbour. Simon put on masses of port wheel, Charlie then was working throttles -wooooo she went right over to starboard at a rate of list easily over 30 Degrees then a short pause, back up and over to port. You can imagine poor Dan had no idea what hit him, he went over the coffee tale backwards and ended up on his back on the settee with said table on him - toaster and kettle left the galley, bounced off the cupboards and found themselves in my aft cabin mean time that big sea was now astern of us.

In these cases you need have two people on the helm - one to keep the boat on as straight  course as possible especially as you come down the face of a wave to the bottom, the other to back off throttles to arrest the speed - and once the bow raises out of the trough at the bottom to put a bunch of power on to get back up the next wave - all the time ensuring that the sea behind is being kept ahead of as to no broach the boat (which is where the boat may twist to port or starboard at the bottom of a wave, the large following wave then picks up the stern and 'spins' the boat broadside to and then likely into a capsize.

Well this was all being done and there I was holding on to the ladder unable to go up or now with the motion - once the turn was complete and the boat was back into her stride we then went for a following sea (and wind) power test - open up the throttles to max RPM and I decided to go live on my Facebook Page and not concentrate so much on the filming with my camera - note too my phone is waterproof but my Blog camera is no and was covered with salt water yet still working. Just as I am live, I get a phone call and at that moment we loose port engine power (only we had not). Charlie dives down "We've lost port gear box oil pressure" he says in passing and I end filming again.

With Charlie in the engine room he is thinking it is a fuel starvation issue - the engine hunting, RPM building only to loose them and return to idle but little did he know (or indeed anyone) at that time that what was actually happening is our fly-by-wire commander unit on the upper helm was doing things all by itself with the port engine. So while Simon and I thought all was fixed as the revs rose, Charlie is thinking "what the hell are they playing at up there". We of course were not touching anything.

It was decided after a few minutes to shut down the port engine. We then had to return - thankfully now in the less violent swell (since we were within the shelter of the headland) to harbour.  Despite all that had happened, nobody panicked, people did not all rush up with ideas and shout to 'try this' or 'why not that' it was all calm and logical but the issue was how the hell would we fair getting this (new to us) boat we had such little time knowing how she may handle and with the delay as it was with the fly-by-wire- throttles back into the lock, out of it, spun round and berthed AND not go and ding the Fairline with her unhappy owner!

Charlie was on throttles and I on thrusters and we got her back, into the lock without anyone being the wiser that we had an issue. Into the Marina we went, turned her around and backed into her berth and unhappy Farline owner was now less unhappy and gave us a hand with our lines - little did he know we were doing it all on one engine, and when informed said what a good job we had done. It was odd as a couple of other boat owners also popped up and after we were alongside I had a chat with them and their ideas about what could be at fault were shared. It seemed they were a little taken aback that we had gone out, lost an engine come back and were so calm about it all.

Needless to say later that day and since we have not been able to replicate the issue. I have made calls to boatyards in the area who all have said 'cannot help much' but one they all said it unlikely to be software (its not a complex system it runs on serial connections) but the actuators not being used for a long period now being called upon at the limit of their travel and in rough seas coupled with the fact no manual was left on the boat from the previous owner and I only had the engineer telling me what to do at purchase to go on. You live and learn.

 

 

[grendel]

Ricardo, if the worse happens Robin can feed from the centre tank to either engine, so can keep the fuel balanced, one way or another. I think it may be deliberate as Griff says, to stop the fuel shifting to one side in heavy seas.

[LondonRascal]

Ricardo I have done a lot - in fact all I can do currently, and that is a lot more than many owners would.

I have had the fuel polished and bottom of the tanks 'vacuumed' to remove any crude in them, I have been told I had an issue with the balance pipe . I then got a boatyard out to drain the centre tank, take apart the system and spend hours working on it to find that there was masses of fuel flow between the port and starboard tanks gushing in to the centre tank. There is no blockage the balance pipe is functioning as should - they also replace all the sight lines to enable us to see the fuel levels (and balancing) between tanks easier. That alone was over £400.00 in labour but I was ok with that, just to know what was what.

I am told by countless people multiple things - form finding it crazy to even touch he balance pipe and risk contamination or fuel to others saying it should be left open at all times. I have been told by other owners of large boats that they run off two tanks and rarely, if ever would they equalize their tanks - but other owners who will balance after each refill! It likes asking what Varnish to use - everyone has an opinion.

So what, really can I do?

I have a pipe that goes through three tanks that is not blocked and has a lot of flow between them all but takes a good while for the levels between the tanks (when it is open) to equalize. I am sorry, but to my mind the system works, we close it at sea and thus no unbalancing can happen (the engines are not likely to draw that much difference in fuel between them to unbalance it that much) even if one was to stop - well we have been there already - we could in such a case manage fuel delivery to the working engine through the fuel manifold to begin taking from another tank (say the one that has to be balanced up)  and when in still water if there is any in balance, open the balance pipe to correct this.

I am sorry back to you for seeming to be flippant, but having spent out what I have to have it inspected and footage taken of the balance pipe working as should I see little more that I can do.

I am and have been taking all due diligence to sort this issue prior to our departure. It has been okay as it has for all these years too, the boat has been to Med and back and no previous owner felt the need to have the system changed so I am approaching the point of 'it is how it is'.

That said, I can find nobody who has been so public in Forum and video sharing and plotted their purchase and time with their boat quite in the  manner as I am, so I am aware by so doing I expose myself to more examination in what I do or do not, so if you have an idea of what to do about the balance of fuel please let me know.

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Ricardo I have done a lot - in fact all I can do currently, and that is a lot more than many owners would. I have had the fuel polished and bottom of the tanks 'vacuumed' to remove any crude in them, I have been told I had an issue with the balance pipe. I then got a boatyard out to drain the centre tank, take apart the system and spend hours working on it to find that there was masses of fuel flow between the port and starboard tanks gushing in to the centre tank. There is no blockage.

I am told by countless people (which you tend to get when being so public) multiple things - form finding it crazy to even touch he balance pipe and risk contamination or fuel to leaving it open at all times. I have been told by other owners of large boats that they run off two tanks and rarely, if ever would equalize their tanks - but other owners who will balance after each refill!

 

I'm saying no more on this issue its your boat your life , I'm a logical person who's much experience in both single and twin engined boat ant that doesn't operate in the normal way , I never said or suggested there was any blockage and I'm fully aware if the work done .

To be perfect honest you need to find out exactly how this complex system works rather than guessing , I know I sound possibly rude but i think all of my vast ie yrs and yrs of experience is being called into question and that's exactly why I'm refusing to comment further .

[DaveRolaves]

Robin, Great thread I wish you all the best. When heading north past Aldeburgh, Sizewell and Dunwich if you keep in 50 feet plus of water  you will avoid the nets and pots positioned by the local inshore fishing boats. Dave R.........

[LondonRascal]

Quote

I know I sound possibly rude but i think all of my vast ie yrs and yrs of experience is being called into question and that's exactly why I'm refusing to comment further

I am not saying you  are rude, and sorry if I have implied that. I am frustrated that I have paid for advice, had action taken and been told one thing and several other people form various places have said there is an issue.

What can I do I think to myself...

I have then posted videos of the set up, which caused debate (good) as to where the issue is, what could be and how to resolve it. I then got a very well respected boatyard to come and spend several hours going through the system which resulted in them saying there was no issue - it all works as should, but not as quickly as one may expect and this could be down to the sheer amount of fuel since the difference between the tanks being balanced of not was 3" to 4" and that if there was a greater discrepancy the weight of one would likely force more fuel into the other and balance faster.

When we were fueling - I cannot guess at the flow rate of the pump - but with the balance pipe open fuel was entering and filling up the port tank, but not as quickly as it was entering the starboard tank - it is not down to vents since this was the same behavior exhibited by the fuel polishing - and that was with both fuel caps off.

It could be down to the design of the tanks. The centre tank inlet and outlet for the balance pipe is mid-way up the side of the tank, and my layman mind tends to think that there is precious little that could be done other than to by pass the centre tank with the balance pipe and see what happens then - e.g. some flexible hose, and if they balance faster you have found the centre tank arrangement to be at fault.

Still, this really effects (or does not) this passage. I wonder what all the other boaters with twin tank set-ups do where they resolutely leave their tanks isolated - once she is in Norfolk it won't be an issue anyway.

[LondonRascal]

6 minutes ago, DaveRolaves said:

Robin, Great thread I wish you all the best. When heading north past Aldeburgh, Sizewell and Dunwich if you keep in 50 feet plus of water  you will avoid the nets and pots positioned by the local inshore fishing boats. Dave R.........

Thanks - this sort of local helpful advice is priceless!

[Jocave]

2 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Once she is in Norfolk it won't be an issue anyway.

Does that mean it will never see the salty stuff again??

 

[Lulu]

I've just watched the latest update and dont mind admitting, I felt pretty emotional as you were all waiting in the lock and then it opened up

[grendel]

38 minutes ago, MorningSwan said:

 

It must be interesting how the control centres for Mars rovers control their charges with several minutes of latency in the activation and response to their inputs?

As the latency period is over twenty minutes, every move is carefully worked out and pre-programmed for the rovers, maybe for several hours ahead. - even worse for probes further out with a latency measured in hours.

[LondonRascal]

Quote

Once she is in Norfolk it won't be an issue anyway.

Does that mean it will never see the salty stuff again??

I am sure she will, but it won't be long passages and they will be fewer and further between. Once she is in Norfolk I can relax - more sheltered, cheaper mooring, get things done without needing to rush to a timetable and also gives me the time to concentrate on a complete about turn in life, leaving my job in London and where I live, and make a move find a place in Norwich or surrounding area.

So if you imagine that Independence is a gear, she forms part of a lot more cogs on a much larger gearbox I call life.

 

 

[grendel]

I used 20 minutes as an example - in truth dependent upon the position of mars at the time it can vary between about 4 minutes and 24 minutes. depending whether mars is aphelion or perihelion, and whether the Earth is too. of course the truth is even more complexwith a variety of states dependent upon the position of each planet in its orbit.

[BroadAmbition]

Well that was good update wasn't it?

Re the fuel tanks, I really think some of us in here are in danger of  'Over thinking' the issue.  I call it an issue coz that's the way I see it.  It is NOT a problem, just an issue.  Besides I don't 'Do' problems, I deal in solutions.  Once we are back onboard this coming Thursday I will get in the engine room and have another look at it, I've a few things I want to look at more closely and discover, discover them I will only this time I will have a Nuclear watchkeeper on my shoulder that used to look after such systems onboard Polaris - Our Howard, two heads are much better than one.   So I am confident we will get our heads round the system.  That's all it is really - understanding the system, it's capabilities and it limitations.  Once we have that knowledge, it will be of course passed and explained to Robin in good old fashioned 'Yorkshire Speak' and he is good to go forever.  What Robin has achieved with engaging the services of professional yards has only made the issue much easier and removed many unknown scenarios form the equation

Griff

[MauriceMynah]

Speaking as one who has no knowledge at any level about anything, is it not desirable for stability to have the link between the two fuel tanks fairly slow? suppose you are at sea and something causes a temporary list would this not be worsened should the fuel add to the imbalance?

[grendel]

Well the Kent shore chase team have a very loose itinerary planned for Sunday- starting at dungeness, timings yet to be worked out, its all down to when Indy and the crew leave brighton and average speeds etc. Various vantage points with cafe's have been strategically planned out, and camera gear and spotting aids prepared for the photography.

I have a range of big lenses that will get me closer for some decent photos, including an adaptor that will allow me to use one of my telescopes as a lens (equivalent to over 1000mm f/l)

[grendel]

7 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Speaking as one who has no knowledge at any level about anything, is it not desirable for stability to have the link between the two fuel tanks fairly slow? suppose you are at sea and something causes a temporary list would this not be worsened should the fuel add to the imbalance?

It seems to me the slow flow rate may just be down to the minimal difference in levels between the two tanks, if the starboard tank were empty, then fuel would flow at the maximum velocity a 1 1/2" pipe will allow, but once the two levels approach the same level the rate of transfer will be less as the difference in atmospheric pressure between the two will be minimal, the closer the levels get to matching the slower the transfer.

[grendel]

possibly slowed even more as the vessel heels over due to the imbalance between the weights in the tanks.

[BroadAmbition]

There ain’t any imbalance with three full tanks as she sits now. There is the facility to  drawi fuel from any of the three tanks simultaneously or separately (nearly said independently there!)  with the balance pipe open or closed. It’s a proper versatile system

Griff

[grendel]

well by using an online flow rate calculator, and assuming 1m cube tanks connected by a 1 1/2" pipe with 4 elbows and 4 valves, the head between the tanks is about 70mm. assuming the start condition of one tank requiring 220 litres, and the other 150 litres

flow time to lower one tank by 70mm (with total loss of fluid) is approx 5 minutes at 2 gallons a minute (9 litres a minute), so that is the minimum equalization time, this rate will slow as the second tank fills up. the flow time at 30mm head is nearer 7.5 minutes at just over a gallon a minute (4.5 litres a minute) - consider this, there is less than half the fuel to move at this point, and to move this half takes longer, so as the difference between tanks diminishes the flow rate diminishes more in proportion.

then add the fact that the person filling up is standing on the full tank side, listing the boat by ? (how much), and you have an explanation why the fuel transfer between tanks while filling up can be so slow.

Your average fuel dispenser pump can achieve about 50 litres per minute (lorry pumps can get to 130 litres per minute), thus we can see that while we can fill the port tank quite quickly, at best the flow between the tanks can only happen over a longer span of time.

[grendel]

I think that with the calculations shown above we have proven that there aint nowt wrong with the system as Griff would say

a full tank would take 35 minutes to empty through the 1 1/2" pipe under atmospheric pressure, 15 minutes longer than it would take to fill using a fast standard pump  or 23 minutes longer than a fill on high pressure lorry pump.

the flow rate from a full tank to an empty one is about 40 litres per minute maximum

[BroadAmbition]

Grendel - I love you to bits! 

Griff

[Regulo]

I bet he was great at those "If tap A fills a bath in 5 minutes, and tap B fills it in 6 minutes, how long will it take both taps to fill the bath, if the plug's out, and it's Friday? Ignore barometric pressure, and the floating plastic duck".

[grendel]

about 10 minutes give or take.

[Regulo]

I think he's right! 

[grendel]

it does depend whether the duck gets stuck in the plughole or not, but the instruction says to ignore that.