How Much Mph Do Boats Need

[Andrewcook]

As I've been on a Few Hiring Boats over a few Years now as  to the Speed on Boats have been Govan down to 5 and 6 MPH is this enough for any Small Boats getting Across Breton wster either way as theses Currants are being pretty  Strong . I'm aware some Boats Hirers do Speed around the Broads as that is good thing to Goven down the  Hiring Boat Speed but the Bigger Hiring Boats do Speed as I've notice a few weeks ago on the Broads so they should be Goven as the same as to the Smaller Boats What's the Forum option on this question?

[JennyMorgan]

A difficult question for which to provide a one size fits all answer! The fearsome dayboats rarely cross Breydon or visit Reedham so being suitably governed down shouldn't be a problem. Bigger boats certainly need some spare welly in order to compensate for wind or tide, I think it would be unsafe to govern them down like the dayboats.

[RealWindmill]

Yes Andrew , I get the drift of your question and from me it an emphatic yes to speed restriction and governing  across the whole 125miles of navigable Broads waterways, including Breydon  Water. 

There are so many small boats, kayaks and all sorts that are are endangered by speedsters that they just should not be allowed.  The obvious exception is ski boats in designated areas and as every boater knows when and if they are water skiing then they present no danger.

The big issue is the large sea going craft that that moor up in the Broadland rivers. If they chose to keep these unsuitable vessels inland then they should at least be prevented from opening up their engines  until below Yarmouth Haven bridge or Lowestoft Mutford Lock, IMHO.

[CambridgeCabby]

Most of the bigger hire boats are capable of about 8mph , day boats probably similar , I was on the river by the Thurne mouth doing about 6mph and was passed , albeit slowly , by a Herbert Woods day boat and the river was almost at slack.

 

 

[Wussername]

22 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

A difficult question for which to provide a one size fits all answer! The fearsome dayboats rarely cross Breydon or visit Reedham so being suitably governed down shouldn't be a problem. Bigger boats certainly need some spare welly in order to compensate for wind or tide, I think it would be unsafe to govern them down like the dayboats.

There is the private boat. The hire boat, and the day boat. The new boat is of course the so called Picnic Boat. Has a toilet on it. Can accommodate up to ten people, some twelve people, or have I been misinformed.

The latter, the picnic boat often visit Reedham. The helm, little or no experience.

I refer to my previous post of a few days ago.

Is this a matter of concern? 

 

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

in designated areas and as every boater knows when and if they are water skiing then they present no danger.

Not only is that statement wildly untrue but you should not assume to speak for "every boater".

A while ago, I was sailing a large river cruiser, "Evening Flight", up the Yare when we were buzzed several times by a powerful speedboat towing a water skier.  He made several passes, up and down, deliberately curving out as near as possible to us, to soak us in the wash from his skis.  The last time, coming down towards us he made a mistake, got in the wash that he had already made and lost his balance.  He came down the side of Evening Flight doing around 40MPH, leaning towards us.  If he had been less than a foot further over, he would have gone through the three wire rigging shrouds on the windward side deck, rather like going through a bean slicer.

They were in an area designated for water skiers and were within the permitted hours but that didn't stop them being successfully prosecuted by me.

As to kayaks and paddle boards, there are speed limits on the northern Broads which are low enough to provide safety for all users, if all users behave responsibly.  I rather doubt though, that someone in a kayak or on a paddle board (that is if they value their life) would be seen trying to go through Yarmouth Station, or under the bascule bridge on Breydon, where boats have to have enough engine power to stem the tide in safety.

At least I sincerely hope not!

 

[RealWindmill]

Vaughan, my statement that every boater knows where water skiers are is because there are designated areas and warning signs that "every boater" can read.

You simply cannot legislate for the stupidity or dangerousness of the individual you came across though , and well done to you for bringing him to book. Examples like yours should be more widely publisized.

As for Breydon and Tarmouth bridges totally agree , kayaking there is asking for trouble. My comments of speed there were aimed more about smaller cruisers whose crockery gets thrown around or whose driver (perhaps a novice) will really get the wind up him and have a bad time of it.

As for power and tide stemming, discussed so often, Haven't we all agreed the safety advice of using slack water and working the tidal flow to advantage is paramount.

[grendel]

4 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

As for power and tide stemming, discussed so often, Haven't we all agreed the safety advice of using slack water and working the tidal flow to advantage is paramount.

I think you may have hit upon a topic there where the hire yards could improve their handovers, they quite often tell people to use the slack water to cross breydon, but they dont fully explain the dangers outside those times, 

The first time I hired I was asked if i would be crossing Breydon, I answered no, so no further mention was made, next time as i was an 'exerienced boater' they didnt even bother to mention it, yes its in the handbook, but how many boaters really read those cover to cover any more?

What is needed nowadays is an interactive app, for each boat that people can skip to as and when to get accurate information for their boat.

[vanessan]

56 minutes ago, grendel said:

What is needed nowadays is an interactive app, for each boat that people can skip to as and when to get accurate information for their boat.

A very good idea imo, there’s an app for most things now so why not? 

[Vaughan]

57 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

As for power and tide stemming, discussed so often, Haven't we all agreed the safety advice of using slack water and working the tidal flow to advantage is paramount.

I assure you I am not arguing with you but as you say, it has been discussed often.

Personally I think it is essential that the speed of a hire boat engine is limited (and so did my father) so any hire boat that I have been in charge of has always been cut down.  For reasons of engine wear, overheating, servicing and fuel economy as well as pure speed.  But what speed do you choose?  On the Canal du Midi the speed limit is 11KPH (c. 7MPH) and so all my boats were limited to that.

But then on a canal with locks, there is no tide and no current, so no need for extra power. Not even on the Etang de Thau, which is several times bigger than Breydon.  On the Broads you have to have enough engine power to cross Breydon and GYS or you are simply not letting the boat out in a safe condition for your customers.

It is very easy to be a bit late on the tide even if you have experience.  3 years ago I was held up leaving Reedham by early morning fog and crossed Breydon just over an hour late.  Under the bascule bridge I was already stemming the full flood and I was pleased to see that Richardsons had limited the boat to exactly the speed needed to stem the tide in those circumstances.  Don't forget there is also more than an hour's difference between the tides on the two rivers in Yarmouth.  So coming north, you are going to be "pushing" something somewhere!

More education yes, although that can never be perfect, probably even less so under COVID conditions.

I am afraid it will always be "horses for courses".  A boat must have enough shaft horsepower to safely navigate the whole of the Broads cruising area ; if not an under-powered boat would be a big danger in itself.

[RealWindmill]

No, no arguements Vaughan. looks like we're singing from the same hymn sheet on this one.

As an aside question. When pushing the current going northwards , do GYYS still allow boats to stop alongside for an hour so to allow that flow to lessen?

( you can tell i'm a tightwad as I resent burning all that extra diesel or having to pay an exhorbitant alongside fee for just an hour or so ! )

[Vaughan]

I have heard horrible rumours about boats being charged for doing that but there is always the floating pontoon near the junction on Breydon, put there by the BA for boats to wait for the tide. A good place to stop for lunch and watch all the other boats ploughing past against the current!

[Regulo]

It can be easy to get the tides wrong at Yarmouth, even for those that have gone through many times. Nature doesn't read tide tables. A northerly wind, heavy upstream rainfall, extremes of barometric pressure - all conspire to make it a bit wishy-washy. Going North, I've arrived at the predicted slack time, to find a horrendous ebb still flowing from the Bure. In hindsight, I should have turned back and fluffed about on Breydon until it turned slack, but I stemmed it under the two bridges. I can assure you, at almost full throttle, I was barely making headway. And, no, they won't let you stop at the YS to wait, I tried that once, and was jumped on for the daytime mooring fee, before I'd finished tying up.

[RealWindmill]

7 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I have heard horrible rumours about boats being charged for doing that but there is always the floating pontoon near the junction on Breydon, put there by the BA for boats to wait for the tide. A good place to stop for lunch and watch all the other boats ploughing past against the current!

Yes, good tip , have used it myself on occasion.

One snag with it though is it's the wrong side of the bridges when northbound and as the water  level is rising in the Bure whilst still ebbing have found the bridges heights too low on the gaugeboard when i've eventually decided to make my move round the yellow post  . I need 7ft 8. so can be a bit of a conundrum

[JennyMorgan]

9 minutes ago, Regulo said:

And, no, they won't let you stop at the YS to wait, I tried that once, and was jumped on for the daytime mooring fee, before I'd finished tying up.

Only once have I been jumped on for a daytime mooring fee which I refused to pay, explaining that I was waiting for the tide. My explanation was accepted but I was told that I could not land which suited me well enough. Why would I want to land in Yarmouth for heaven's sakes!

[rightsaidfred]

As Regulo has said tide times are a guesstimate, I doubt anyone has got it right every time I know I havn`t, added to which there are times when an extra bit of kick can avoid awkward  situations for everyone.

Governing an engine is not an exact science and you will still get variations in speed between different boats just the same as in lorries where you can end up with one taking a mile or two to overtake one fractionally slower, with boats on tidal water where do you set the parameter, is at the maximum 6mph which would be insufficient against a strong tide or say 8mph to provide enough grunt to push against a strong tide which then gives you double the 4mph speed limit in a lot of places with little flow.

As with so many things while the theory sounds good the practice proves unworkable and in some cases dangerous.

Fred

[MauriceMynah]

Hmmm, how fast should a boat be able to go?  Oh if only it were that simple. (referring to the original question)

There are so many different situations that effectively give good reason to stop boats being governed to the upper speed limits I doubt I know half of them.

It has been said here often and by many that we can all get it wrong sometimes, and that for me includes misjudging the intended course of a tacking yacht. So, I get it wrong and am committed to the move. Giving it "Everything forwards and trust in the lord" can get you out of the sticky situation and assist the saily at the same time.

We all know that the problem is not speed in itself, but the wash caused by the speeding craft. We equally know that different hull designs and lengths cause different  heights of washes. a point highly debateable when pushing a fast tide.

I honestly think there is no correct answer to the original question but must be left to the judgement of the skipper at the time.

[RealWindmill]

14 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I honestly think there is no correct answer to the original question but must be left to the judgement of the skipper at the time.

And there is the rub of the question.  Given all the speeding incidents being reported and the BA's request for info of speeding incidents it seems the judgement of skippers is not working.

[MauriceMynah]

Agreed RW, but all the BA are doing is pointing out that in those cases, that the judgement shown was found to be wanting. Much the same could be said on the roads. Is there anybody (drivers only please) here who has not broken the speed limit on the roads? I doubt it. 

[rightsaidfred]

10 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

And there is the rub of the question.  Given all the speeding incidents being reported and the BA's request for info of speeding incidents it seems the judgement of skippers is not working.

You can bring in all the restrictions you like you cannot legislate for human stupidity or ignorance or total disregard for others, once again I think we have an issue that has always existed becoming a social media outcry.

In the 40 or so years I have spent on the broads speeding boats have always been a concern, not just hire boats and dayboats but the many run-arounds and fishing punts etc in places like Wroxham and Horning, or the many private boats with sea going capability of all sizes not just the gin palaces, the BA have made similar statements or pleas in the past when one or two boats have been of particular concern.

While we should all be conscious of the problems with speeding and if appropriate inform the BA lets nots get things to far out of proportion that we start causing other problems.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

In regard to my speed I generally carry a small, handheld E-Trax gps. Cheep as chips now but it does the job, it tells me what my speed over land is, it keeps the BA off my back! What it doesn't do is tell me my speed through the water, and that is what really matters. This is a debate that predates the BNP lie by a century and will probably continue long after its demise. Maybe satellite controlled speed governors is the answer? 

[rightsaidfred]

11 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

In regard to my speed I generally carry a small, handheld E-Trax gps. Cheep as chips now but it does the job, it tells me what my speed over land is, it keeps the BA off my back! What it doesn't do is tell me my speed through the water, and that is what really matters. This is a debate that predates the BNP lie by a century and will probably continue long after its demise. Maybe satellite controlled speed governors is the answer? 

My speedometer is very low tech it is a pair of eyes that looks at my wash or lack of it.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

9 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

My speedometer is very low tech it is a pair of eyes that looks at my wash or lack of it.

In a perfect world!!

[rightsaidfred]

Not perfect but practical when wash is the greatest concern with speed.

Fred

[grendel]

yet as we have seen before going up against the ebb through Great Yarmouth you can be travelling at 1mph over land and doing 9 mph through the water, and still get a yell to slow down from the rangers due to your wash, and vice  versa you could be doing 12 knots on tickover with barely any wash and no steerage way coming down with the ebb, how would your gps speed governer deal with that, shut the engine down, so you had no control?