Battery Chargers??

[Keebz]

Just wondering what battery charges people have fitted I have a solar panel on the roof but it’s ugly and I would rather the guarantee that power being is being tricked in to the battery’s specially when I’m planning on using her weather dependent in the winter, I have seen the vicron charges with 3 out puts but not sure regarding ampage 

[Smoggy]

I have a victron 30A 3 output which works well but only when plugged in obviously, I don't have shore power at my mooring so now have a solar panel as well which seems to keep things topped up so far but not had it over a winter yet.

I also have a portable panel that I can plug in to the same controller which has helped out a lot over the last couple of weeks.

[JanetAnne]

Victron 3 output here as well. Fitted a few now in either 20a or 30a guise and been really happy with them

[floydraser]

My boat came with a Ctek M200 Marine looking after the two leisure batteries and Halfords trickle charger doing the engine battery. The Halfords one has just bitten the dust and I now have a Vetus BC12352 to do replace it. I haven't yet read all the info but I understand it can do both jobs.

[Oddfellow]

I recommend these: I fitted them to all the fleet boats. 

https://www.sunshinesolar.co.uk/Item/LCHA20A

[annv]

Hi Keebiz I use Sterling they are English and will give advise over the phone!  and if you get to them before 10 o'clock will repair that day, have found Victron ( Dutch) difficult to get repaired, A 4 way charger hard wired in is best, these will fully charge your battery's and maintain them, size/output depends on your battery bank size, Sterling's site will advise on this, I would keep your solar panel as this will maintain your battery's over the winter or down time with out the shore power connected. John

[Oddfellow]

4 minutes ago, annv said:

Hi Keebiz I use Sterling they are English and will give advise over the phone!  and if you get to them before 10 o'clock will repair that day, have found Victron ( Dutch) difficult to get repaired, A 4 way charger hard wired in is best, these will fully charge your battery's and maintain them, size/output depends on your battery bank size, Sterling's site will advise on this, I would keep your solar panel as this will maintain your battery's over the winter or down time with out the shore power connected. John

Sterling may be an English company, but nothing is made here. I have been through countless Sterling products in fleet and vowed never to install another one. Of course, stuff in hire gets hammered and mistreated, but the failure rate just after the warranty period was enough for me to declare Sterling inverters as a future "do not fit" to my boats. 

[Regulo]

I had a Waeco on Sunbird - no issues in 12 years!

[Karizma]

Related question - do some install battery chargers on their boats even if they have a separate inverter charger on board that provides 240volts as well as charging capabilities when connected to shore power ?

I have an inverter/ charger on my boat (Sterling Pro Combi), and a single solar panel, so wondering what benefits might be if I invest in dedicated battery charger(s)?

 

[Cheesey69]

Victron Bluetooth version here. 
Bluetooth via an app helps me keep an eye on the state of charge with ease allowing me to place it along side the battery bank and out of sight. 
it can also function without being connected to the batteries providing 12 volt power which is handy if you want to remove your batteries for winter but still need bilge pump. 
Keep in mind input amps from the shore, mine is 16amp, so no need to go wild with charging amps. 10 amps for me is plenty 

[Keebz]

9 hours ago, annv said:

Hi Keebiz I use Sterling they are English and will give advise over the phone!  and if you get to them before 10 o'clock will repair that day, have found Victron ( Dutch) difficult to get repaired, A 4 way charger hard wired in is best, these will fully charge your battery's and maintain them, size/output depends on your battery bank size, Sterling's site will advise on this, I would keep your solar panel as this will maintain your battery's over the winter or down time with out the shore power connected. John

Fitted sterling’s products on past boats and they’ve never really impressed they do replace and repair but one I had 4 faults in one year so Once bitten twice shy, 

[Meantime]

3 hours ago, Cheesey69 said:

Keep in mind input amps from the shore, mine is 16amp, so no need to go wild with charging amps. 10 amps for me is plenty 

Input amps and charging amps are two different things and are relative to the voltage and the total power. 16 amps at 240V input gives a t total power of 3840 watts. P or power = V or voltage x I or current. 3840 watts at 12V gives a total current of 320 amps!!!!! 

A charger giving out 20 amps at 12V DC, is likely to be using around 1 amp of your 16 amp shore power supply. In reality due to power factor correction and power efficiency it is likely to be closer to 1.2 amps, but no where near your 16 amp supply. 

[Vaughan]

Sometimes I find it helps to think in watts, which are volts times amps.

So a 40 amp charger is producing 480 watts at 12 volts. (in theory).

At 240 volts, this same wattage is only 2 amps.

Plus as Meantime says, you lose some efficiency through the voltage conversion.

I always like to have a 40 amp charger on a motor cruiser.

[Vaughan]

I was also taught to think of DC electricity like water flowing through a pipe : where amps are the flow rate through the pipe; volts are the water pressure and watts are the volume of water delivered.

If you turn on the cold tap in the kitchen, you get a strong jet of water.  If you then connect a long hose to the tap and go down the bottom of the garden with it, you only get a trickle out of the end.  This is the same as resistance in a circuit, which causes volt drop.  If you want the same flow at the bottom of the garden, you need a bigger diameter hose!

[Oddfellow]

13 hours ago, Cheesey69 said:

Victron Bluetooth version here. 
Bluetooth via an app helps me keep an eye on the state of charge with ease allowing me to place it along side the battery bank and out of sight. 
it can also function without being connected to the batteries providing 12 volt power which is handy if you want to remove your batteries for winter but still need bilge pump. 
Keep in mind input amps from the shore, mine is 16amp, so no need to go wild with charging amps. 10 amps for me is plenty 

Only redundancy. You already have a battery charger in the Sterling unit. Another would conflict with the Sterling unit if you were to use them together. 

[Meantime]

14 hours ago, Karizma said:

Related question - do some install battery chargers on their boats even if they have a separate inverter charger on board that provides 240volts as well as charging capabilities when connected to shore power ?

I have an inverter/ charger on my boat (Sterling Pro Combi), and a single solar panel, so wondering what benefits might be if I invest in dedicated battery charger(s)?

 

 

1 hour ago, Oddfellow said:

Only redundancy. You already have a battery charger in the Sterling unit. Another would conflict with the Sterling unit if you were to use them together. 

Redundancy is one questionable benefit, but there are several reasons not to use two chargers connected to the same set of batteries at the same time. Most modern chargers are intelligent software controlled three or four step chargers designed to sense the needs of the battery and charge and condition them accordingly. Add another battery charger into the mix and they will be sensing each other.

Having two battery chargers could also easily lead to you charging your batteries twice as fast and lead to battery damage. Your battery charger output should be rated at about 10% of the size of your battery bank. So assuming you have 2 x 110 amp hour batteries you have a bank of 220 amp hours. So your best size charger would be a 20A charger, this will ensure you cannot exceed the maximum current charge rate for your batteries. If you add in a second 20A charger you now have the ability to deliver 40A between the 2 chargers, or double the recommended charge rate which in turn will lead to damage to your batteries.

Most modern chargers will have some form of desulfation mode activated by a timer where for a short period of time a higher than normal voltage is applied to the battery to desulfate the plates. This process is good for the battery in small doses and can lead to acid being boiled off. Having two chargers would mean twice as many desulfation routines.

A modern 3 or 4 step battery charger starts with putting a bulk charge into the battery and when it senses the battery is near to being charged it will switch to a topping charge mode for a set period of time before switching into the final stage, float mode or power pack mode. They keep sensing the battery and at some point if a load is applied, or the battery naturally discharges to a certain point the battery charger will sense this and restart all it's charge steps again. Having two battery chargers connected would cause the two chargers to mis-interpret what is occurring with the batteries. 

[Karizma]

9 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

Only redundancy. You already have a battery charger in the Sterling unit. Another would conflict with the Sterling unit if you were to use them together. 

 

7 hours ago, Meantime said:

 

Redundancy is one questionable benefit, but there are several reasons not to use two chargers connected to the same set of batteries at the same time. Most modern chargers are intelligent software controlled three or four step chargers designed to sense the needs of the battery and charge and condition them accordingly. Add another battery charger into the mix and they will be sensing each other.

 

Thanks for the comments & expanding on the logic. on that basis I'll save my pennies for something more worth while.

My only challenge now is to trace the wiring from the inverter and figure out which battery bank it is charging, as i have 3 battery banks and the solar panel is connected to 2 of them (two house banks), so I'm hoping the inverter is charging the 3rd bank (engine), or maybe all 3 banks ........ who knows.

My next trip down might find enough time to develop Karizma's wiring diagram a little further!

Thanks again.

[Smoggy]

Check all 3 banks voltage then plug in (without any running) re-check voltage and you will know what it's charging.

[Karizma]

2 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Check all 3 banks voltage then plug in (without any running) re-check voltage and you will know what it's charging.

what a good idea -  thanks 

[annv]

The engine battery is the least important one if it only starts the engine the engine alternator will charge this the inverter/charger should charge the other two, why do you have two domestic battery's that are separate normal practise is to have engine battery separate and all the others up to three or four  wired/connected in parallel  to run the domestic side these will be charged by mains or engine via a smart regulator from engine alternator or in later set ups by a second larger alternator usurerly 180 amp with engine alternator of 60amps you can get a device that will combine both for greater output when sailing. John

[annv]

To check a battery charge for 24hours leave standing for 24hours checking with volt meter every hour writing voltages down,  check electrolyte level before charging. John

[Karizma]

1 hour ago, annv said:

.........why do you have two domestic battery's that are separate 

not sure John, its how she was when we bought her last year.

I have 5 batteries in total; 2 banks of 2, and 1 on its own (engine), all linked together via 3 battery combiners. I also have  the solar panel with 2 charging outputs via the PWM, and 2 alternators (but haven't yet worked out where they go yet, just need more time on her).

The good news is everything works just fine, so no need to mess about with anything - I'm just keen to learn and understand more 

[Oddfellow]

Probably Battery Charge Splitters (Probably diodes) not combiners.

Common config for 3 banks:
2 banks of 2 will be 2 for the domestic 12v power - 2 for the inverter - 1 for the engine. 

Two alternators. Each should go to to a charge splitter to charge the three banks. 

[Helian]

Back to the original question I have a Chargemaster 12/25/3 that individually charges the domestic, starter and bow thruster batteries. I have just replaced the original, like for like. I also have a basic battery charger (but would only ever connect once the offending battery had been isolated). Also carry one of those jump start boosters for off grid emergencies...  

[annv]

Hi Karizma Ar now you tell us you have five battery's with two alternators it makes more sense i guess one bank is to run inverter and other bank lights and fridge, have you tried to contact previses owner yet?. John