Broom And The White Heron

[Smoggy]

Wether or not Clive gives a discount to blue light cards is purely down to his choice (and as pointed out it is a company that looks after shareholders first), as the landlord of one of my locals says when presented with a camra card in the expectation of a cheaper pint "no mate I don't discriminate against normal people".

Fairer prices across the board to all has to be the important thing.

[Ray]

15 hours ago, jeffbroadslover said:

Cannot understand why people who work for the "blue light" businesses think that they should be given discounts just because of who they work for. 

I have never heard of anyone in one of these services being forced to do a job they actually applied for in the first place.

Jeff

 

The issue is not about Clive's decision, he is rightly highly respected by all Broads users for his knowledge and contribution. His commercial decisions are his alone, no one questions that especially everyone here who appreciates how his decisions benefit all.

The issue is about Jeff's post above, I thought that was clear?

[Meantime]

7 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Wether or not Clive gives a discount to blue light cards is purely down to his choice (and as pointed out it is a company that looks after shareholders first), as the landlord of one of my locals says when presented with a camra card in the expectation of a cheaper pint "no mate I don't discriminate against normal people".

Fairer prices across the board to all has to be the important thing.

I think it has to be accepted that there are many loyalty schemes, some you pay a membership fee for, where you then benefit from some kind of saving, or discount. CAMRA, Network Railcard, CostCo, Tesco clubcard, Nectar card, etc, etc. 

They are all run for the benefit of the company that operates the scheme and can provide savings for the members. You pays your money and takes your choice.

For instance some pubs join the CAMRA scheme and give a discount in the expectation it may bring more CAMRA members and therefore more trade to them. They are only doing that in the expectation of increasing turnover, not for the benefit of the CAMRA member.

The Blue Light Card is no different to the above really in it's aims are to obtain discounts for its members, and the owners of the company make a nice profit in return. The only real difference to the ones listed above, and its one I'm slightly uncomfortable with, is the marketing leads to the sympathy card being played and in some cases retailers feeling they need to participate or provide a discount. If perhaps the Blue Light card was a charity and gave the cards freely to select front line Blue light staff, I'd feel more comfortable about it.

[DAVIDH]

22 hours ago, Mouldy said:

Given that their hire prices are lower than those through Hoseasons, together with the pride in the way their boats are turned out and general appearance, I know who I would go with should I ever need to hire again in the future.

Can I just clarify this Malcolm as I think you may have unintentionally given the wrong impression about booking through Hoseasons. Prices for boats booked through a Hoseasons partner boatyard are not loaded. They are the same price as if booking direct, though they don't operate a loyalty scheme, they do offer the Blue Light scheme. They have this lowest price guarantee on their website: 

We are so confident that we have the best prices, that in the unlikely event that you find the same boat (like for like), available on the same day you make your booking, for the same dates but at a lower price, we will only charge you the lower price. The boat concerned must be:
• The same as the one featured in our brochure
• For the same start and end dates
• For the same type of craft
More here: https://partners.hoseasons.co.uk/NBH/boat-holidays/important-information

I know you know that Hoseasons are just agents for the boatyards you can also book direct with, and that booking through them as opposed to booking direct, doesn't get you an inferior standard boat. Just for the casual visitor to these pages, as it's part of my business, I hope you won't mind me pointing it out. 

[Mouldy]

1 hour ago, Ray said:

Also on the website the Blue Light card funds the Blue Light Foundation which is a charity helping veterans of the Emergency and Military Services who have fallen on hard times. For the record I have never heard a single instance of anyone claiming an entitlement to this service.

 

If the Fire Service saved your home or boat would you say "thank you" or "that's what you signed up to do"?

Point taken, Ray, but during the pandemic, we stood on our doorsteps and clapped the NHS, for what they were doing.  In the logistics industry, we were working flat out, trying to meet the additional orders that had been created by panic buying and shortages of essentials in the shops.  Where I worked, we despatched on average 60 x 52 pallet artic loads of cereals daily.  As a result of the additional orders, we were asked to double that.  Because of volumes, my shift pattern was changed from five x 10 hour days to four on, four off, twelve hour shifts, yet was still working almost sixty hours a week.  Many of our drivers were working over seventy hours a week to cope.

Folk worked in shops, throughout the lockdowns, as did a lot of other industries.  Yes, agreed, the NHS were on the front line, but others were working in very difficult circumstances doing essential work, yet didn’t get much credit for their endeavours.

Obviously, blue light workers deserve thanks for what they do, as do many others whose services we rely on every day of our lives.  How many of us hold our dustmen in high esteem, for example, but life without them would be very different.  But I stand by my comment that people chose what they do in life and aren’t forced into it and whether a company feels they need to enter into this scheme is surely up to them.

Is the best way here not to check Clive’s pricing against what is offered by other companies, with discounts applied and see how they compare?

 

[Mouldy]

3 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Can I just clarify this Malcolm as I think you may have unintentionally given the wrong impression about booking through Hoseasons. Prices for boats booked through a Hoseasons partner boatyard are not loaded. They are the same price as if booking direct, though they don't operate a loyalty scheme, they do offer the Blue Light scheme.

I booked a week in Scotland at a caravan park earlier this year through Hoseasons.  As our week drew to a close, I went into the office to enquire about booking for the following year.  I discovered that had I booked direct with the site, I would have saved a not inconsiderable amount and would have benefitted from an earlier takeover time.

I have booked direct with the site for next year.  They have reduced the number of rental units for 2025, from eight to six and all of them are less than two years old.  Indeed, the one we stayed in this year was being offered for sale at the end of this season.  If it wasn’t so far away, I’d have been interested!

[marshman]

Thanks Meantime for your post on the Blue Light card - it exposes one of my pet hates!

It really annoys me, having worked for sometime with quite large charities, the number of newer, small charities, that are set up following , often tragic events, that occur. Whilst I know the intention is good, I suspect many do not really function as they should and often pay "executives" to run them - we can all remember a classic case or two! I know people who have the Blue Light card who do not really qualify, yet continue to benefit - I say that guardedly as I am sure many are genuine as well!

There are often many similar charities doing similar work, with all the admin structure in place, to which a donation will go straight through to the bottom line, without the additional costs - give the money to them and let them shoulder the "admin" costs.

[rightsaidfred]

32 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Can I just clarify this Malcolm as I think you may have unintentionally given the wrong impression about booking through Hoseasons. Prices for boats booked through a Hoseasons partner boatyard are not loaded. They are the same price as if booking direct, though they don't operate a loyalty scheme, they do offer the Blue Light scheme. They have this lowest price guarantee on their website: 

We are so confident that we have the best prices, that in the unlikely event that you find the same boat (like for like), available on the same day you make your booking, for the same dates but at a lower price, we will only charge you the lower price. The boat concerned must be:
• The same as the one featured in our brochure
• For the same start and end dates
• For the same type of craft
More here: https://partners.hoseasons.co.uk/NBH/boat-holidays/important-information

I know you know that Hoseasons are just agents for the boatyards you can also book direct with, and that booking through them as opposed to booking direct, doesn't get you an inferior standard boat. Just for the casual visitor to these pages, as it's part of my business, I hope you won't mind me pointing it out. 

I think the point is that a company that doesn't use Hoseasons can reduce their prices by the amount of commission they would have paid Hoseasons and still make the same profit margin.

Fred

[Meantime]

4 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I think the point is that a company that doesn't use Hoseasons can reduce their prices by the amount of commission they would have paid Hoseasons and still make the same profit margin.

Fred

Minus off course what ever they have to spend to promote and advertise themselves, host their own website and booking system etc. It's not as straight forward as it seems, in other words they have to replace all the functions provided by Hoseasons and that comes at its own cost surely? 

[rightsaidfred]

Just now, Meantime said:

Minus off course what ever they have to spend to promote and advertise themselves, host their own website and booking system etc. It's not as straight forward as it seems, in other words they have to replace all the functions provided by Hoseasons and that comes at its own cost surely? 

Not when in most cases they all have their own website and direct booking in place.

Fred

[Ray]

45 minutes ago, Meantime said:

If perhaps the Blue Light card was a charity and gave the cards freely to select front line Blue light staff, I'd feel more comfortable about it.

The Blue Light Trust makes it partly that although cards are paid for and there are also shareholders.

 

47 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Point taken, Ray, but during the pandemic, we stood on our doorsteps and clapped the NHS, for what they were doing.  In the logistics industry, we were working flat out, trying to meet the additional orders that had been created by panic buying and shortages of essentials in the shops.  Where I worked, we despatched on average 60 x 52 pallet artic loads of cereals daily.  As a result of the additional orders, we were asked to double that.  Because of volumes, my shift pattern was changed from five x 10 hour days to four on, four off, twelve hour shifts, yet was still working almost sixty hours a week.  Many of our drivers were working over seventy hours a week to cope.

Folk worked in shops, throughout the lockdowns, as did a lot of other industries.  Yes, agreed, the NHS were on the front line, but others were working in very difficult circumstances doing essential work, yet didn’t get much credit for their endeavours.

100% agree Malcolm, there are too many unsung heroes who deserve recognition for their contribution to getting us all through.. my thanks 👍

 

40 minutes ago, marshman said:

It really annoys me, having worked for sometime with quite large charities, the number of newer, small charities, that are set up following , often tragic events, that occur.

Set up in 2008, not just for covid.

[NeilB]

37 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

I booked a week in Scotland at a caravan park earlier this year through Hoseasons.  As our week drew to a close, I went into the office to enquire about booking for the following year.  I discovered that had I booked direct with the site, I would have saved a not inconsiderable amount and would have benefitted from an earlier takeover time.

I have booked direct with the site for next year.  They have reduced the number of rental units for 2025, from eight to six and all of them are less than two years old.  Indeed, the one we stayed in this year was being offered for sale at the end of this season.  If it wasn’t so far away, I’d have been interested!

The hire yard I worked at was under contract to Blakes and prices had to be the same regardless of who took the booking.  Whenever we took an internal booking it had to be checked with the agent first to ensure they had not taken a booking at the same time for the same boat!  It may have been possible to keep a couple of boats, or caravans, outside of the contract for regulars.  I’m not sure and we never did it anyway.

Pretty sure Hoseasons work the same although I suspect Jimmy Hoseason would turn in his grave at the way they have treated Brooms.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see more yards leaving them and going it alone.

[dom]

33 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Not when in most cases they all have their own website and direct booking in place.

A website alone will generate little business. The biggest cost is marketing to drive traffic to it, whether that's TV, press or pay per click advertising. Booking agents raison d'etre is to remove the cost and inconvenience of marketing away from the hire company so they can focus on their core business operation.

[Mouldy]

20 minutes ago, NeilB said:

The hire yard I worked at was under contract to Blakes and prices had to be the same regardless of who took the booking.  Whenever we took an internal booking it had to be checked with the agent first to ensure they had not taken a booking at the same time for the same boat!  It may have been possible to keep a couple of boats, or caravans, outside of the contract for regulars.  I’m not sure and we never did it anyway.

I don’t know, Neil.  I checked the period we booked for against the same period on their tariff as displayed in reception and we paid a fair bit more through Hoseasons.  Obviously, Hoseasons apply their own cancellation policy and insurances, which will be different from those used by the caravan park and will make a difference to the overall price.

I have, in the past, disputed some Hoseasons insurance costs applied.  They used to offer a policy covering personal possessions, which I always now turn down on the basis that we have cover on our home insurance for items outside of the house, for valuables.  I made the mistake of taking it one year and lost a pair of expensive sunglasses, so tried to claim off the Hoseasons policy.  Their insurers passed the claim to our own insurer and as a consequence we lost a no claims bonus.  I subsequently found out that you cannot insure the same item through more than one insurer, so from then on always declined their personal cover.

[DAVIDH]

1 hour ago, Mouldy said:

I booked a week in Scotland at a caravan park earlier this year through Hoseasons.  As our week drew to a close, I went into the office to enquire about booking for the following year.  I discovered that had I booked direct with the site, I would have saved a not inconsiderable amount and would have benefitted from an earlier takeover time.

Yes Malcolm, I'm sure this goes on all the time...under the counter dealing. These businesses don't want to pay commission to agents, but can't manage without them either. They would rather split the commission paid to Hoseason with you, but the original booking was procured from Hoseasons. That costs money to promote. 

[Mouldy]

7 minutes ago, dom said:

A website alone will generate little business. The biggest cost is marketing to drive traffic to it, whether that's TV, press or pay per click advertising. Booking agents raison d'etre is to remove the cost and inconvenience of marketing away from the hire company so they can focus on their core business operation.

In the case of both HPC and Broom, both yards have a core business operation other than a hire fleet - probably more in the case of HPC, where moorings and boatyard services are or were surely their primary business.  I would imagine that as their hire fleet becomes more well known, either through repeat bookings, recommendations or by seeing their craft on the river (Fleetline potentially attracting a lot of attention), the reliance on website advertising will decrease.

[rightsaidfred]

8 minutes ago, dom said:

A website alone will generate little business. The biggest cost is marketing to drive traffic to it, whether that's TV, press or pay per click advertising. Booking agents raison d'etre is to remove the cost and inconvenience of marketing away from the hire company so they can focus on their core business operation.

I agree to some extent although these days many people just do a web search, Moores and NBD did it successfully back in the 1990s before the internet became as common as it is today, the Penninsular Cottages  have been the same in recent years, we always booked direct in our hiring days.

Fred

[dom]

2 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

In the case of both HPC and Broom, both yards have a core business operation other than a hire fleet - probably more in the case of HPC, where moorings and boatyard services are or were surely their primary business.  I would imagine that as their hire fleet becomes more well known, either through repeat bookings, recommendations or by seeing their craft on the river (Fleetline potentially attracting a lot of attention), the reliance on website advertising will decrease.

They'll never ever have the ubiquity of Hoseasons though. The point of using an agent is to deliver consistent bookings even if bookings are thin on the ground.

[Mouldy]

4 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Yes Malcolm, I'm sure this goes on all the time...under the counter dealing. These businesses don't want to pay commission to agents, but can't manage without them either. They would rather split the commission paid to Hoseason with you, but the original booking was procured from Hoseasons. That costs money to promote. 

Given the size of this particular holiday park and the overall number of units available to the hirer, eight this year and only six next year, on a park of over 150 pitches, the rental side is a very small part of their business.

My guess is that, for them, the rental units are there to attract potential buyers and in time their rental  units will no longer be available.  As I said, had the place not been over 300 miles from our home and I was interested in buying a static caravan on a park, it would be top of my list.

[Mouldy]

1 minute ago, dom said:

They'll never ever have the ubiquity of Hoseasons though. The point of using an agent is to deliver consistent bookings even if bookings are thin on the ground.

I don’t know.  Many of the posts on Facebook asking for recommendations regarding hire yards seem to point to booking direct with the individual yards.  Based on what I’ve read, I think the way Hoseasons dealt with cancellations caused by the pandemic didn’t win them a lot of friends.

There can be no doubt that they aren’t the company they were even just a few years ago.

[DAVIDH]

56 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Not when in most cases they all have their own website and direct booking in place.

Most marketing is now web based. Pay per click, where the principle pays everytime someone clicks on the ad It's making Google billions of pounds. I tried it about 10 years ago when it was costing £1 per click, (too expensive for my little business) and on average you get 1 booking in 60 to 70 clicks, so it's not cheap unless you use an agent and spread the cost. Here is what comes up on a search for Norfolk Broads Boat Holidays. 

[dom]

1 minute ago, rightsaidfred said:

I agree to some extent although these days many people just do a web search,

I've spent a lot of years as an ecommerce manager for a brand name company, with a database of over 1m customers. Even at that level, simply having a website it not enough, as you always have competitors putting in more effort to appear above you in search results. There's an entire industry just for search engine optimisation and pay per click advertising these days.

A small fleet may well get away with just word of mouth and a simple presence, but an operation of the scale which Clive's now reaching, you need a lot of new customer acquisition going on. That's where booking agents come into play.

I suspect the problem now is that either booking agents haven't adjusted their fees downwards, to reflect the cost savings brought about by the internet, or that the scale of the market on the Broads is not really worth the aggravation these days - so their offering to yards is becoming unattractive.

[dom]

4 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

There can be no doubt that they aren’t the company they were even just a few years ago.

I've said it elsewhere recently, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hoseasons had pretty much decided to let Broads boats dwindle away to nothing, as the amount of business isn't worth the effort these days.

[RS2021]

1 hour ago, NeilB said:

The hire yard I worked at was under contract to Blakes and prices had to be the same regardless of who took the booking.

I suspect that model of business may now fall foul of competition regulations. If you try to book a hotel room, or self catering cottage you will find the same hotel/cottage on multiple sites and certainly in the case of hotel rooms at different rates. Each agent has the option of how much of the commission it gets paid it keeps and what it gives to the customer.

In the days of printing expensive brochures I could see the desire of the agents to have exclusivity, but in these internet days its not necessary. For most holidays now agents compete for their business. Even so you usually get a better deal booking direct, but not always. Its best to shop around.

[jeffbroadslover]

When I first came down to the Broads back in the 60's almost every boatyard was connected to either Blakes or Hoseasons.

How many yards now operate through booking agents.               Sign of the times.

Jeff