The Broads National Park? Time to decide!

[Mowjo]

Mmmm! make of this what you will! it's worth reading the whole thing, but from page 8 on the reading gets interesting, with comments about the Sanford principle and ones like the comment below, I know it says a debating point, but most of us know what the RSPB are after,,

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/A%20greener%20future%20for%20the%20Broads_tcm9-171522.pdf

 

 

Debating point: do we waste money on dredging Broadland rivers? Hundreds of thousands of pounds are spent on dredging Broadland waterways, to enable vessels drawing a metre or more to move safely. Many of these are diesel-powered – outdated, fossil-fuel burning, 20th century technology. Traditional Broadland wherries were working vessels able to carry tons of materials along undredged, shallow, reed-fringed rivers. Should we learn from the past for a more sustainable future? Why not combine the flat-bottomed wherry design with an electric engine?

[Guest]

I'm surprised your post has had no responses Mowjo, there's quite a lot in it for people to get their teeth into !

 

Just focussing on one aspect though, I find it strange that 60 foot heavily laden cargo wherries need less depth than the average broads motor cruiser.

 

My current sports cruiser draws just under a metre with the leg fully down, and my previous ex hire cruiser drew 0.6 metre.

 

I thought it was only sailing keelboats that needed greater depth than a metre, something of a paradox for conservationists (eco friendly power needing greater depth than "stinkies" )

[marshman]

I think "shallow draught" is all relative - Albion draws over 4' and laden probably well over 5' - in them there olden days she would have had a slipping keel to reduce that by a foot or so but there is also plenty of evidence that dredging took place not just in modern times, but at that time to accomodate heavily laden wherries.

 

Come on PW - can you dredge up a picture please??? 

[Guest]

Good thinking about the picture MM.

 

Steve Truss has some excellent hull photos of White Moth when he surveyed her.

 

http://steve-insightmarinesurveyor.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/wherry-yacht-white-moth.html

 

She looks pretty deep to me, and I believe Hathor draws 4ft as well.

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

The Broads, a National Treasure, now, that would have made sense to me.

 

Re water depth, many gin palaces exceed three foot draft, about the same as very many Broads sailing boats. That aside, water depth is very much a conservation issue. Water flow relates to flushing the system, remove that flush and the very character of the Broads environment changes. Shallow water relates to reduced flow thus a reduced flush, one of the reasons that Heigham Sound was eventually dredged, after much kicking and screaming.

[Guest]

...Re water depth, many gin palaces exceed three foot draft, about the same as very many Broads sailing boats......

 

 

Yes Peter, many "Gin Palaces" do exceed 3 ft draft, but only just, and most of them are significantly less.

 

Even monsters like this Broom 430 (43 ft long) are only 3ft 6ins, quite a bit less than most Broads River Cruiser class yachts.

[JennyMorgan]

Yes Peter, many "Gin Palaces" do exceed 3 ft draft, but only just, and most of them are significantly less.

 

Even monsters like this Broom 430 (43 ft long) are only 3ft 6ins, quite a bit less than most Broads River Cruiser class yachts.

Strow, please, a little bit of research wouldn't go amiss on this one. 3'6" is pretty much a standard draft amongst Broads sailing craft, including sailing cruisers. Yes, some of the extreme racing machines have had their draft increased in recent years but 'most' have not. I rather suspect that less than one percent of Broads sailing cruisers exceed four foot draft.

[MauriceMynah]

So what's the sailing craft's equivalent to the stinkies "Gin Palace"? "Cocoa shed"?

[JennyMorgan]

More like Adnams Palaces!

[Polly]

Brilliant draws 3' that is pretty standard.

Oh, and being brilliant, she has a built in wine cooler.

[Guest]

Strow, please, a little bit of research wouldn't go amiss on this one. 3'6" is pretty much a standard draft amongst Broads sailing craft, including sailing cruisers. Yes, some of the extreme racing machines have had their draft increased in recent years but 'most' have not. I rather suspect that less than one percent of Broads sailing cruisers exceed four foot draft.

 

A little more research Peter ?

 

I simply googled for River Cruiser adverts, and found most were 4ft or over, like these two:......

 

http://www.broadlandyachtbrokers.co.uk/boats/339

 

http://www.topsail.co.uk/boat.php?refnum=1715

[JennyMorgan]

Strow, you don't live that far from either Hunters or Martham Boats, may I suggest that you pop in and measure up the old girls' bottoms!

[Guest]

It's the good Pete and Strowy show.... 

[BroadScot]

Strow, you don't live that far from either Hunters or Martham Boats, may I suggest that you pop in and measure up the old girls' bottoms!

Oh thats a bit "cheeky" JM  

 

 Iain.

[marshman]

Errrr PW can you not dredge up pictures of old dredging operations???? Thats where this discussion came from to prove that dredging has gone on for many many years to accommodate deep draughted wherries - even with slipping keels!!!

 

Whilst its very nice to watch a two sided challenge match, could we get back on topic and back to the point in question which was pointing out that wherries are not shallow drafted at all.

 

The other point that has been missed is that shallow Broads actually change their character very quickly and rapidly become barren of virtually everything. Surprised the RSPB even consider this as  to keep a Broad healthy it has to be dredged - that was the whole point of the Barton Clearwater Project when that was dredged, and the point behind why Natural England want to do Hoveton Great Broad and why Hickling is important too.

[JennyMorgan]

Marsh, 1860, is that early enough?

 

 

At one time sailing smacks were able to come onto Oulton Broad for storage and maintenance. A few years ago Excelsior, a sailing smack, came onto Oulton Broad for an exhibition, she didn't go many yards before running aground.  

 

At one times laden wherries, drawing about 6 feet, were able to sail the Broads, confident that the rivers would accommodate them. rather more limited today. 

 

At one time coasters could go up river to Norwich, doubt that they could today. Mind you, they have no reason to go there today but the loss of depth means a loss of flow to help keep Breydon clear.

 

My daughters RCC sailing boat, Spray, draws about 3'4", we have sailed across the centre of Oulton Broad leaving a swirl of mud stirred up by Spray's keel. 

[C.Ricko]

Peter,

The water must have been shallow as we sail Raisena round Oulton and don't have a issue with 4'10'' (thereabouts) 

[Guest]

Peter,

The water must have been shallow as we sail Raisena round Oulton and don't have a issue with 4'10'' (thereabouts) 

 

She's an awsome sight with that 60ft mast.

[JennyMorgan]

Clive,I have been behind Raisena in my dory, after that elusive photographic masterpiece, when I have watched your swirls in the silt. You won't come to a standstill, unless you hit the clay in the North Bay, but you might be cutting through silt. They are very nice people at WOBYC, they don't tend to set the cruiser races for low tide, it saves fuel on the rescue boats! If my memory serves me right Mike on Maidie grounded where he shouldn't in one race last summer. For the record Oulton is due for a big dredge, surveys taken place and lagoons have been prepared for the spoil but I have no idea when it's scheduled for. 

[marshman]

Hi PW - thats a good one!! Not seen that one so many thanks indeed.

 

Talking of coasters, it was a well known fact that at F T Everard they used to send their coasters up the Norwich River to clean all the rubbish off their bottoms - apparently they all used to come back very clean indeed because of the "polishing" and over the years they saved a bit on shipyard bills !!! Probably apocryphal but nevertherless a good tale!!!

[JennyMorgan]

Marsh, i suspect that there is some truth in that tale. In one race I was caught by the undertow from one coaster. The suction created towed me along several hundred yards, right through the fleet, despite which I still didn't get a place!

[JennyMorgan]

Marsh, have tried to enhance that snap for you.

 

It looks like she dredged with buckets on belts, probably very easy to maintain a constant depth with. I expect that she belonged to the Lowestoft to Norwich Navigation Company or whatever it was called. 

 

[C.Ricko]

Strow

Yes she is, its a pity we broke it at Breydon and missed Oulton regatta,

We are now in talks about a bigger mast.

[JennyMorgan]

Seventy foot of carbon? That's one hell of a length, when lowered, to go though Yarmouth with! 80/85 foot l.o.a? 

[Guest]

Strow

Yes she is, its a pity we broke it at Breydon and missed Oulton regatta,

We are now in talks about a bigger mast.

 

Bigger ? 

 

( bl***y hell )