When things go up in smoke

[LondonRascal]

A few members of this forum will know about my experience when a Argofet Battery Isolator decided to go up in smoke - your need to watch the full Blog for Day 9 to see the full story which will be posted later tonight.

 

This is a preview of how the events unfolded.

 

I wanted to draw this to people's attention separately as I did not know where the battery isolators were at the time - do you know where yours are?  Do you know where the fire extinguishers are on your boat, how to take them out of the holders and use them? Have you considered what may happen if smoke was suddenly found onboard?

 

As you will see things can come very rapidly and when there is smoke coming out from under the floor on a boat you panic but being aware, in control and focused in such a situation helps and I certainly will be thinking more in the future about such things.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwbpi4Blv0g&feature=youtu.be

[ranworthbreeze]

A few members of this forum will know about my experience when a Argofet Battery Isolator decided to go up in smoke - your need to watch the full Blog for Day 9 to see the full story which will be posted later tonight.

 

This is a preview of how the events unfolded.

 

I wanted to draw this to people's attention separately as I did not know where the battery isolators were at the time - do you know where yours are?  Do you know where the fire extinguishers are on your boat, how to take them out of the holders and use them? Have you considered what may happen if smoke was suddenly found onboard?

 

As you will see things can come very rapidly and when there is smoke coming out from under the floor on a boat you panic but being aware, in control and focused in such a situation helps and I certainly will be thinking more in the future about such things.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwbpi4Blv0g&feature=youtu.be

Hi Robin,

 

It is good to make boat skippers well aware of where the battery isolators are fitted and also the fuel cut off valves.

 

I was surprised however that on seeing the smoke comming through the floor that you didn't make immediately for the river bank, in case you had to leave the boat, once with a line ashore you could have stopped the engine, turned off the fuel shut off valves and battery isolators.

 

The last thing I would have done would be to open the engine hatch (unless the cut off and isolators were in there) for the fear of adding air to a potential hotspot.

If the boat had an auto engine bay fire extiguisher that may have been another matter.

 

Regards

Alan

[Baitrunner]

I thought you looked pretty calm all things considered Robin. not easy when your on your own.

 

You make a couple of really good points though - part of the BSS is making sure the battery isolators, fuel isolator valves and gas valves are clearly marked - I am surprised the boat yard did not make you aware of them though? Stop the fuel and you have a chance of stopping the fire.

 

Also don't forget a fire extinguisher is to help you get out of danger/off the boat/out of a cabin not to fight a fire. Unless it's a small one. But as you say this only helps if you can find them and know how to operate them.

 

It's always a tough decision as to whether you kill the engine straight away, but then does the boat drifting pose more of a danger to you and others than the fire? That's a tough call to make on the spot.

 

The next point is do you open the engine hatch? Opening that could have caused a fire to be fed with oxygen and no more needing to shave your eyebrows would have been a good result (not suggesting you do shave them Robin). But how do you check without doing that?

 

One of the things I have on my boat is a laminated safety checklist so you and your crew know where everything is. I made it up after doing a day skipper course. They teach you all about safety at sea, but for Broads cruising it is a bit over the top, so I made a scaled down version. If I can find the soft copy I will post it.

 

We all think we know what to do in an emergency, but until it happens you never know.

 

Glad you raised this Robin and that it all ended up OK.

[LondonRascal]

You make a good point Alan.

 

I was closest to Ranworth Island and so that was the place I headed to. 

 

I did not have any idea what was causing the smoke or where it was actually coming from but did know it has just begun (and smelt very electrical).  Perhaps best not to have lifted the hatch but when things go from sedate to anything but you don’t think as you otherwise would.

 

Mark, It has certainly changed my opinions and take more account of where things are and how one operates them.  Usually battery isolators are inside the boat, these were under the rear deck almost next to the batteries (the signage to which had been shown to me) the fuel cut off also under the rear hatch by the fuel tank.

 

If I had lifted a hatch and there had been a big rush of flames - in a way I would have been happier to know I the boat is on fire and get the hell off – as it was I just knew there was smoke from something somewhere which made it even more worrying.

 

As it happened, the unit that failed (even with the batteries isolated) would still be live - if you have one of these you might like to have a fuse placed between it and your batteries so if the unit goes pop the fuse will blow and it will no longer be fed with current.

[Baitrunner]

As I said Robin, I think you did pretty well under the circumstances.

 

It's easy for me to say what should and shouldn't have been done from my comfy office seat with a nice cup of tea, but when it happens you have to make the call that you think is right.

 

Even with training I am sure many people would have performed far worse than you did.

[dnks34]

Wonder why the owners didnt protect the circuit with a fuse to start with? We had something similar with a split charge relay neutral feed shorting out onto the relay live, there were flames and a lot of smoke as the cable went up like det cord back to the engine block, guess what......same yard.

[Jonathan]

Well done Robin!  I notice that you checked that the gas was off first.

 

dnks34:  I just looked at the manufacturer web site and they don't suggest using a fuse.  I guess that the fuse would have to be big enough to take full alternator to battery charge current, so it would be unlikely to protect against a failure in the "electronics" of the unit, and any poor contact or corrosion at the fuse would cause a voltage drop and a potential hot-spot itself.  You don't get fuses in that part of the circuitry of a car, but then they don't often have more than one battery to charge.

[Hylander]

I hope you are alright Robin after this terrible scare.    My heart was thumping watching the clip.    What a panic I would have been in.

 

Just hope you are ok.

[LondonRascal]

Oh worry not for how I am, as your see in the full episode once moored and a call was made to the Engineer I was fine and then went about finding what exactly it was and relaying this to the engineer so he was able to get a replacement and what tools to bring with him.  I was pleased though I had the camera to hand as this made help others plan and think what would they do...Thinking of which:

 

I wonder how many members here have had something suddenly happen on their boat where smoke is seen to be rising from beneath the floor and if they have, what did they do?

 

I don’t think I agree the best course of action is off with the engine and into the reeds – it is perhaps if you are over heating but in the case of what happened to me I have to ask at what point does one turn off the engine?

 

Do you do it straight away - the moment there is a problem and whiffs of smoke appear?  Because then you are drifting without power and if the wind is not being kind it could well send you off down towards Ranworth Staithe and into the open water of the Broad and not towards the banks of it.

 

If however you motor towards a bank and cut the engine close to it and drift into the bank and you found it was a really serious incident and flames, it might well be harder to get off the boat into tall Reeds or the tangle of branches that are often found around this part of the Broad than the open flat ground that Ranworth Island provides.

 

Of course it depends on the symptoms of the problem but then this is my opinion.

 

To begin the smoke seemed to be coming from the galley area; I first thought it may be the fridge.  If you’ve ever had an electrical item go bang and produce ‘magic smoke’ your know it seems a thicker, white/grey smoke from plastic insulation and resins that does not rise and disperse quite as smoke does if you are burning other materials.

 

I have not had this sort of thing happen to me – I’ve just had overheating and belts going then rubbing burning up with friction (different sort of smoke and smell).

 

It is also worth pointing out I was alone - having to deal with the boat and what was unfolding – and thinking quickly what to do and where to go.  It is funny the things that went through my mind.  My first instinct the moment I thought I smelt something funny was to turn the camera on and keep it going then I was concerned about going too fast towards the Island in case people thought ‘what the hell is he playing at’ and once I arrived I did not want to hit the quay too hard in case I damaged the boat – so panicking to begin, but thinking about these things all the same. 

 

Once I was secure – I was filming as I was calling the Boatyard (tend to have engineers numbers in my contacts) so I was then much more comfortable with things – they were not getting worse.

 

Your see in the full days Blog that actually happened to the unit, where the fuel cut off, battery isolates etc were located.  I know this is not the first time one of these Victron units has failed but it seems to me that Victron like to keep the instances of such on the low.

 

Imagine if this was installed in the engine bay under a berth as so many boats out there have their engines – once the earth wire had burnt through its insulation it then made metal to metal contact with the far chunkier positive wire which was constantly being fed with a lot of amps – the cycle was then complete the unit got hotter and hotter and the insulation began to melt on the large positive battery wire as it too was being effectively turned into a heating element – I do wonder how much longer it would have taken to go from a lot of smoking to something actually catching light.

 

To be fair the instructions do not call for a fuse between the unit and batteries - so it is your own caution to add one or go by what the book tells you to do.

 

I think what can be taken from this is we all have our own opinions and would all react differently – but you can see how fast something can happen when you least expect it to so I for one will be making much more careful notes about what to do now it has happened – much like if you fall in the water I bet your never take the risk of not wearing your life jacket again, for anyone who has not fallen in (like me) you think ‘it will be ok and won’t happen’.  It probably will and would not be at all.

[dnks34]

Johnathon im not sure I agree re the fuse, in a fault condition there could be more amps going through the unit than it was designed to take, would a fuse rated to the specification of the unit not be of benefit? I have an inverter in which the manufacturers instructions stated the 12v supply should be fused appropriately and the fuse was not included with the kit!! In this case is a fuse also going to be useless if a fault develops in the unit?!

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Robin,

 

I agree with you, I would not turn the engine off until I was safely ashore the only other time I would cut the engine would be if anyone was in the water near to the back of the boat.

 

Sadly electronic items do go wrong and with MOSFET devices these do bang likewise motor start capicitors etc. I do not have any experience of these units but I have worked on Victron UPS's up to 8KW for larger office backup systems. 

 

When any devices of this type do go bang it is accompanied by the tell tale smoke and acrid smell. 

 

Like the other forum members I thought you did a good job keeping your cool whilst under observation of your camera's.

 

I am looking forward to your full report in due course.

 

Regards

Alan

[Jonathan]

dnks34:  It is a difficult decision.  The manufacturers of this gadget make a 100A and a 200A version.  A fuse for either of these would be fairly chunky and might not "blow" in many emergency situations.  Furthermore the connections to and from the fuse are also potential points of failure, and a poor fuse contact will generate heat and drop volts.  I really don't know what is best, but as I said the manufacturer does not suggest that a fuse should be used.

[Polly]

Yes. We managed to create a conflagration of sorts last year. The outboard went critical, ( weeds) and it was emergency off and straight into the reeds. Fire extinguishers were to hand but not deployed as it smoked something awful but didn't actually ignite. The oil cap had melted and spurted oil into the engine cavity.

Surprisingly, after a clean up and new cap, it got a clean bill of health!

Mark Bird sold it to us a while back, so I guess he sold us a tough little engine!

[GeoffandWendy]

What a situation to be in. At least you are alright Robin, that's the main thing. Regarding the battery isolators, I think that the hire companies should inform the hirer, where they are situated, so that they can be turned off if the same situation arises. Watching the short video clip, you handled the situation very well and kept your cool. Well done! 

[JawsOrca]

I've not seen this episode Robin but it sounds like the outcome wasn't too serious and hopefully you wasn't too shaken up.

 

Personally it sounds like you did the right thing. Although perhaps heading to an island wasn't the best idea, encase you were injured and needed rescuing although I guess as long you safely vacated the boat and left it away from others it probably wasn't too bad of an idea.

 

Switching the engine off immediately would depend on where you are and the circumstances, if you are at sea away from shipping channels and in fair weather than certainly worth doing as the grater risk is the fire but on a full ebb down at yarmouth then certainly not as theres a grater risk of hitting something and sinking.. Although I guess you could call for help at least and drop the weight but should a fire break out you probably wont have long (well 3 mins if the BSC is correct!? Yeah right!)... I doubt that SOB will have got to you in 3 mins so it's still probably safer to continue to dry land. (Another reason why all boats should have a (free) tender)... But as you say it's all very tough choices and very hard to say without being there..  

 

I probably would have reduced the revs and like you had a look more to work out whats up (Thankfully I know my boat inside out so that would take all of about 2 seconds!) I understand my engine can run with the isolators off so they would been switched off too and if that reduced the fumes then head for shore.. Should a fire have broken out (and the extinguishers not have helped)  then it would be a Mayday call over VHF and then into the wet stuff... (Or in the dinghy if it was inflated!)..   

 

Touch wood this is a very rare occurrence and doesn't happen again and certaily never causes a serious fire.

 

If I understand the cause correctly, I've been advised never to fit the auto isolators as they do play games at times so we have always been advised to fit our boats with 2 way manual isolators (Although I guess they aren't in hireboats because they need manually changing over).  I certainly agree that they should be marked although I guess there's only so much the yards can explain and do in that short induction (for something which may not cause an issue).

 

[riyadhcrew]

Geoff,

 

I think Robin said that the fault was on the cable from the battery to the isolator, so switching off wouldn't make any difference.

 

Robin - you did great and please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Polly]

I think engine off and cruise to the bank is the way to go. Never ever open a hatch where fire is probable unless you are safely able to get off in a hurry and have a working extinguisher in your hand!

Battery isolators should be labelled of course and everyone know where the switch is. I have a safety sheet too for Brilliant, must remember to take it aboard!!!

[Baitrunner]

Heh Robin,

    No one mentioned you didn't have your life jacket on    Now you mention it though you naughty lad  

 

These incidents do make you think why you should wear them all the time though.

[LondonRascal]

The offending unit.  As you can see this is a 200A 3 output model.

 

 

Just to recap I was told where the Isolators for the batteries were on takeover of the boat and they are labelled with red screw on plates - the problem was at the time I forgot this and also where the plates are is not directly where the Isolators are - it is to the left and back of the labels location.

 

Once the fault began while ever the unit had power and a high rate of Amps going into it, this of course 'fed the problem' - when you look at the video the point of smelling something, finding it was on the boat and not outside to the stern mooring all happened in real time (no edits) I am just pleased I had somewhere safe and quick to go to and not be on a situation like suddenly smelling burning and seeing smoke as I came towards Vauxhall Bridge at Yarmouth for example.

 

I also have to say that David the chap from Barnes Brinkcraft did a great job - not only to have a replacement unit in stock, but stop one job at Acle, go to Wroxham collect the parts and tools then 'commandeer' another boat to take him to me and not only replace the unit but then go through everything with a fine tooth comb not just electrical but mechanical too before being satisfied there was no further issues.

[grendel]

the problem is, the only way to disconnect the live side if it has faulted is to either unscrew the connections (if its arcing and smoking a rather tricky procedure) or cut the live wire in, or remove the leads from the batteries, cutting the wire if you dont have tools isnt really an option, and the battery terminals were probably well hot. not a great deal of options there. well done for keeping calm and remembering to shut everything off - particularly the gas.

Grendel

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

This has been an excellent read.

 

First of all, you should NEVER open any hatches to find out where the fire is, as you may cause a classic backdraftand a huge ball of flame. If the hatches, doors etc are all left shut, you are restricting the flow of oxygen.

 

Second, at NO time did you put on your life jacket, which should ALWAYS be as close to hand as possible while inside the boat, which means as soon as you smelt smoke, it is the first emergency devise at hand. 

 

The worst thing you did was leave the helm of a moving boat to look for a fire, especially as you were single handed, and this left the boat out of control, VERY DANGEROUS, and could have been disasterous.

 

You also wasted time trying to moor stern on, when you should  have brought the boat in what ever side, and as quickly as possible, and to hell with speed limits, as your life was at risk.

 

However, you did right in turning of the gas immediately,, but turning off the isolators may have resulted in inadvertantly cutting off the elctric fuel pump, that a lot of modern deisel installations have, so had you found them and done so in mid stream, it  could have been catastrophic.

 

You also did the right thing in opening the back door, incase of an emergency evacuation.

 

 

It`s very easy for people (like me,  and others) to be clever in hindsight, but whenever we picked up a hire boat, i ALWAYS made sure i knew where the master switch was, and where the gas bottles were incase of any emergencies. We also always have our life jackets within arms length  at any time while on the move. 

 

I also don`t like to have the mudweight rope coiled around the weight, or in a mess on the foredeck, incase we need to drop it in any emergency.

 

 

Having said all that, it`s good to see you did`nt panick, as this alone will result in rash and ill thought out decisions. A few seconds to think can be a life saver.

 

Well done Robin, :clap

[LondonRascal]

Well I am sorry but this will be what I will call a 'passionate reply'. 

 

Of course it is easy to sit back and in hindsight suggest this, or that and I am sorry at the time I broke all the rules that I have never been told or trained for. I dealt with the situation alone, firstly assessing what was unfolding in seconds and then carrying out a plan to get the boat to shore quickly where I could investigate further what was going on.  It is easy to say after the event, but at the time I was never worried about myself I was more concerned about the boat - strange but true.

 

What one cannot see see was prior to hitting record on the camera, the burning smell had been apparent for I would estimate about half a minute and I was already thinking 'what to do' 'what could it be' then I hit record on the camera. One can see I am looking ahead (there was no boats coming towards me this is not a narrow river situation and there was only one boat passing away from my direction astern) so I am takign in what is around me outside as I am taking in what is going on inside the boat.

 

I head down to the Galley - and came back up to the helm mere seconds later and re-check what is about in front of me before going back down to the Galley and back up again to the helm.  This was to turn off the gas supply, and check the fridge was not the cause of the smoke and try and ascertain where the smoke was actually coming from.  I chose to do this - it was not a panic or being an 'out of contro'l thing.  I also chose to keep power on so I was still making way towards my 'exit point' being Ranworth Island that I had already decided upon as a point to make for when I first smelt burning.

 

The difference  to many situations one may read of or hear about is this is me.  This is filmed as it happens - not a training video, not planned or acted and not someone recalling a story several hours or days later  missing this bit out of getting the events slightly wrong. You and everyone else can see what happened and how I reacted (I too have learnt a lot from this episode and encourage others to as well) - but  how often do you get such a candid example to watch?

 

My life jacket was to my right, on the seating - I did not put it on as I did not want to. Even if there was a major fire underway beneath the floor (again my nose told me the smell was not that of a fire and the smoke that I could see was white/grey not dark which again indicated to me it was not that of a fire) I felt I would have had time to grab the life jacket and put it on.  But you know, honestly I probably would not have bothered to put it on because the engine was working fine and my backup had there been flames would be get to the island flat out.  I was not taking on water basically.  I would get to the island, get out the back of the boat tie it up and then begin fighting the fire.

 

Yes I would have certainly given such a go and not just have walked away before doing what I was able.  That is a personal choice and I have had to make such myself  several years ago in a situation where a fool had set light to commercial waste  bin outside the building I worked in - doing what I did contained it - walking away in a panic would have lead to a lot of damage, but some people would 'give it a go' and some would not.

 

I do not agree that even if there was a fire under the floor that opening up the hatch a small amount would have resulted in a huge fire ball - you have to investigate at some point, underway, mid Broad, or with all systems switched off and moored up.   Also we are talking about diesel fuel which, even if was being pumped out of a leaking fuel pipe under pressure onto a hot engine would not 'fire ball' because it would not be vaporising and causing such build up of flammable gas like petrol would.  It would already be ignited and jetting out a large flame - which might then be causing other items such as plastic insulation and pipes etc to begin to  catch fire.

 

It would have released a plume of black smoke and lapping flames  but no fire ball I am sure.

 

However, in such a case I would know it was a fire underway, where it was and have some kind of time frame as to how long I had before it was out of control and reaching a critical temperature to start the resins in the fibreglass to begin to burn. 

 

I am sorry If I am being rude, perhaps I did not think my actions or lack therein would be the focus of the event, more the event would be and me wanting to show people this is what happened and how might they react in such circumstances.  Perhaps I am a little prickly tonight.

[dnks34]

You dont know how you will react to a situation untill you find yourself in it. Dont really see the point in telling robin where you think he went wrong, hes fine (i presume!) the boat is still in one piece what else matters

[Polly]

A few years ago, a neighbour came round and asked me to ring the fire brigade as her washing machine was belching smoke and she didn't want to ring them herself for some reason (??).

I did and then went with her to see if I could help, fire extinguisher in hand.

It was still on and plugged in, so I disconnected it. Then I realised several children were playing upstairs! Get them down and keep them down was my advice. There was a visiting dad of some of the children, he was dead keen to open the door of the machine to 'see what the problem was' so keen was he and so sure a mere woman couldn't stop him that I had the choice of having a stand up argument or repeating my advice and going home.. I went home, leaving the fire extinguisher.

The fire brigade arrived very shortly afterwards. She told me later in surprise that it got much worse after I left, guess who opened the door?

Of course, I should have had that row, it would have given the Fire Brigade time to arrive.

[lampini]

[quote name="LondonRascal" post="105087" timestamp="

I am sorry If I am being rude, perhaps I did not think my actions or lack therein would be the focus of the event, more the event would be and me wanting to show people this is what happened and how might they react in such circumstances. Perhaps I am a little prickly tonight.