Admit it - Who did it?

[kadensa]

Owing to work and family commitments I haven't visited the forum in a while.  I must say I am somewhat disappointed  that the once 'friendly' forum seems to be indulging in the same divisive rhetoric which has culminated in such damaging results elsewhere.

 

Yes, there are bad hirers, just as there are bad owners.  Accidents happen in all walks of life; whether the architects of them are more or less culpable depends on the circumstances, but they are all non-intentional.

 

I have the greatest sympathy with those whose property is damaged through no fault of their own, wherever the incident takes place.  However, I cannot see how penalising a whole group of people for the reckless actions of a few is either just or helpful.

[fishtone]

Why not do what the car hire companies do and take credit card details and if any damage found on return money comes off credit cards straight away. Sometimes this runs to a lot of money if excess waiver ins not taken out.

[JawsOrca]

I must admit guys this isn't quite going the way I thought it would... Please keep it friendly.

[Cheesey]

Hi,

  You can't learn to drive out of a book.

  I am licensed to drive everything you can on a driving licence.

  Still make mistakes.

  The one thing they can't show you is experience and even if you have loads of it, your still going to have an odd moment.

  Hands up anyone who's never made a mistake while driving? and how many hours have you under your seatbelt?

  I earn my living by tidying up after motorway crashes and boy, these are caused mainly by people who do stupid things in the cold light of day. At the time, I'm sure they thought they was doing the right thing.

  If I met someone who's never made a mistake on the water then I'm talking to a very boring person or a liar.

 

[dnks34]

Ive made mistakes, the best one was in moores basin (when it was moores) i had reveresed in to stern moor, the wife stepped a shore with a rope and as soon as she was off I followed her from the helm with the other rope, we soon noticed that the boat was not letting us pull it to shore as intended and felt rather heavy......I had left it in Gear! Still, no harm done and lesson learned!!

The thing in all of this is you wouldnt go camping and expect someone to drive over your tent, kick your dog and pee in your bbq......

[riyadhcrew]

I've never met anyone who hasn't dropped the ball at one time or another. When it comes to bumping a boat, hopefully its normally coming into or leaving a mooring and the magic word is SORRY.

 

THE HELMSMAN WHO NEVER MADE A MISTAKE --- NEVER MOVED THE BOAT!!!!!

 

My opinion.

[RayandCarole]

Eric

Agree whole heartedly

As my previous post I am a professionally trained and experienced mariner

And I still make the occaisional mega c*ock*up but I like to think the previous experience helps me get out of the situation with my reputation intact

Oh dear now what have I precipitated

Ray & Carole

[dnks34]

I think we should all accept accidents and mishaps will occur.....but..... Ive said it before that I wouldnt get upset at a boat "touching" ours to assist in mooring, its those that are being reckless that I get hot and bothered about. The way I see it is that a sensible inexperienced person will be careful in what they do (you can spot them easily) and the people with no sense are the ones you dont want to be anywhere near (they stick out like a sore thumb!) like the romany hitting potter bridge, alphacraft at thorpe and various other events (horning) that have been reported on the forums of late, these are not accidents and mishaps, they dont get reported as they are a fact of life.

[ExSurveyor]

The thing in all of this is you wouldnt go camping and expect someone to drive over your tent, kick your dog and pee in your bbq......

Have you never been to Glastonbury

[Oddfellow]

If you owned your own boat and it was damaged by these

groups, would you still feel the same? I doubt it!

The loss of the use of your boat whiles't it's being repaired

and the other issues associated with it are damned

annoying, and that's putting it mildly. It's happened twice

to us and it's not nice!!

On the issue of the £1k, I remember having to leave my

bank details and fill in a form for the extra amount(Not £1k,

but I forget the amount) and it wouldn't be drawn providing

the boat came back without 'careless damage' either to

our hired boat or any other damage caused by us.

So no, you wouldn't have to find an extra £1k on booking

but you knew you would have to look after the boat and

make sure that you didn't cause damage in any other way

whilst in control of it, or you would be charged for it.

As it stands, you don't get the CDW back whether you look

after it or not. If you spread that CDW between several

people on one boat, it's peanuts to them.

If this comes across as angry, sorry but it's not, I'm just stating

how I view it, having been a victim.

Sorry, Bill, it just dosen't work.

 

You would have to have £1000 cash or a full deposit lodged. It is too easy for unscrupulous operators to get refunds from card companies, stop cheques and so on. There is no point in me holding a deposit that turns out to be worthless.

 

The Barnes boat you mention in another post had the crew ejected on Sunday morning after the incident you mentioned along with others were drawn to Matthew Thaites' attention.  Damage like this from morons like that is not the norm, but as in every walk of life, you will get it. A £1k deposit probably wouldn't have stopped it either as that's just £100 a peice from a ten body party, which, if you're out to cause havoc and are of that kind of attitude, is proabably quite a cheap thrill.

 

Deposits help focus the mind of hirers, but dosen't prevent problems.

[ZimbiIV]

This is getting too far. Bring back keel hauling.

[BroadScot]

Or worse, ME singing!    

 

 

Iain

[Timbo]

I remember the last time we hired from a yard near a bridge. I had nipped ashore to make sure I had locked the car and I heard the guy attempting to hand over to my Mrs. It went something like this...

 

"You guys have been here a long time! First through the gate but last to leave. Sorry about the wait to repair the boat, we had a rough night last night, works do. Have you been boating before?"

"Yes years ago and on a smaller boat."

"Great stuff, enjoy your holiday, bye!"

 

And that was it!

 

As for mistakes....I'm damned good at them! Mooring on the wrong bank at Ludham and 'scootering' my way with one foot on the bank and one on the boat as we couldn't get off the bank. Everytime we pay Clive a visit, do I end up doing a 360 in that flaming basin! I think it's RT's high canopy that catches the wind. 

 

Of course there are the successes. I was immensely proud of a stern on mooring I executed at Barton Turf staithe. Gently pushed the boat into the basin, hard over to starboard with a few revs. Cut back the revs, line her up and a gentle push in reverse. Walk down the deck picking up the ropes as I went and stepped off onto land, used my foot to ease RT into position. The 'I bet you've done that a time or two' from the holiday maker moored beside us was worth more welcome at the time than a young Catherine Zeta Jones asking if she could share the duvet!

 

Its not just trouble makers that can run into problems afloat. We were rammed by forty foot of plastic 'driven' by a bloke who thought he was behind the wheel of his smart car. Still repairing the damage two years on!

 

As for flags, Uncle Albert is desperate to fly a blue rag on the back...but I won't let him, even though he claims he's entitled to.Simple reason is that I associate a blue ensign flown from a craft meaning there is someone onboard or in control of the craft that 'knows' what they are doing. Uncle Albert may know the ins and outs of the cats wotsit but physically...he's in no state to offer any assistance. I've got boating 'qualifications'... sort of. A certificate for a sponsored row for ten year olds round the boating lake in Donny and I was a BCU instructor (now that wound Uncle Albert up when he took his one star BCU badge and I was his examiner). So Uncle Albert and I have reached a compromise. For the minute we will fly the red duster off the blunt end until Royal Tudor is finished and then we will swap it for the Tudor Ensign. Its Royal, its navy, its green to match her hull and it fits the boats name and will make folks wonder what its about when they see it.

[MauriceMynah]

Kadensa,

 

Whilst we may be discussing the same divisive subjects that tore the other place apart, we generally seem to be able to do so here in a rather different way.

 

I don't know why this is but there seems to be more respect here for the other persons point of view, and where necessary  more "Well let's agree to disagree".

 

There are many here who are members of both of the forums, some even of the third forum and one or two of all four (that I know of) so how each of the forums manages to come over with such a differing ambiance I surely do not understand, but they do!... and long may that be the case.

 

This particular thread appears to risk becoming a them and us custard pie fight between the hirers and owners, but in fact it isn't, that's not what's being moaned about here. The subject of any anger is the "I'm all right jack" attitude and the "It's not my boat so I don't care". The latter by it's very nature has to be from a hirer, but the former can be from either camp.

 

When an incident takes place on the broads there will always be the forum "kangaroo court". this is (in my opinion) not only inevitable, it is both essential and desirable.

 

As has been admitted here we all make mistakes. Last month, 50 years of boating experience didn't stop me from trying to go under Potter Heigham bridge when there wasn't really enough clearance, Whispering Reeds will be sending me the repair bill in due course! I fouled up, just like the person in the opening post of this thread.

 

The Hirer made a mistake. We will never know if it was owing to an "I know better" attitude or that the skipper just got it wrong. Either way the Forum Court has examined the case and discussed it. I have probably become just a little more sympathetic to the boatyards as direct result of reading their side of things. Others may well have learned other things. The forum has worked, is not divided, and is still friendly.

 

Not one custard pie has been thrown in anger! Good show!

[Gracie]

Wow, you have an amazing way with words MM, what a post, the way you describe this Forum is exactly why I'm so proud to be a member 

 

Grace 

[Wussername]

I agree Grace. MM's post deserves more than a "like" it demonstrates the core values of this forum.

[Timbo]

I agree Grace. MM's post deserves more than a "like" it demonstrates the core values of this forum.

The man is a good friend of mine  ...but I have to 'like' him as well? 

[Baitrunner]

MM you beat a lot of us to it and may I say in a very eloquent way as well.

The friendly agreeing/disagreeing forum.

[BroadScot]

Mark said....

 

 

 

Now where are my custard pies ready for that "nude boating" post?

Don't even go there Mark!       

 

 

Iain.

[JawsOrca]

Yup please stay away from the "nude boating" post.. The "View new content" button is currently being blocked by my works "Porn filters"... dread to think what is being discussed...

[BroadScot]

MM,

 

You have IMHO, covered all aspects, and some.  The minute I personally consider its custard pie throwing time, then nope sorry, that's not friendly, whereas water pistols at dawn ARE!

 

Well said MM, a brilliant post indeed sir 

 

 

Iain.

[lampini]

I agree Grace. MM's post deserves more than a "like" it demonstrates the core values of this forum.

 

Hear Hear    !

 

I belong to a canal forum which "looks" very very similar to this one  - BUT - i seldom if ever post to it as the risk of getting a good savaging for daring to have a differing view is very high, and then you're embroiled in a (usually pretty personal) spat that you just haven't got the time for! Poor newbies regularly get torn asunder for daring to ask questions (mainly about C&RT's ever more complex continual cruising rules, about which EVERYONE is currently confused!)..

 

(Altho i broke my own rule the other day and interjected on a post where some eejit stated that all women hated having a dedicated engine room on a narrowboat - wot bilge that was - Raaagh! )

 

From time to time folks will ask for heavier moderation on this canal forum, but the ones who love an argument and a good bullying session always moan that the site would become "bland" and "dumbed down". They always win! 

 

THIS site is neither bland nor dumbed down - posters merely seem to have much more respect for each other's point of view here. Which is why, even though i've been a member of the canal forum for over THREE TIMES as long as i've been a member of this one, my post count here is over double what it is there!

 

IMHO this is down to the moderation here; so it's really a long-winded way of saying -

 

WELL DONE MODS!!

[BroadScot]

Thank you Jane (Lampini) for that, most kind. 

 

 

Iain.

[Baitrunner]

Sorry Alan - get in touch with IT and ask for special dispensation  

 

Fortunately we don't block anything where I work - although that has other problems

[LondonRascal]

Not too long ago I was moored at How Hill and just having made a sandwich was about to poor some boiling water into a mug when I was hit – although no damaged was done to the boat, it was sufficient to make me unsteady on feet and ‘trip’ backwards – had I of had the kettle in my hand I know that water would have ended up on me.

 

I can appreciate the shock of such an incident when it is so ‘out of the blue’ furthermore, had it been my own boat I would have not just moaned about it for a bit but gone after the culprits (who did not stop, or even acknowledge they had hit me) to get details and make a more through check of any damage. For the record, the people involved in the above were not a single sex party but what appeared to be a couple with friends in their late forties on a Broadsman or Carousel boat.

 

BB, I understand where you are coming from as an owner and someone who has had damaged caused by irresponsible (or perhaps just carless) hirers – but I am also looking at the wider industry too of the importance and pressure upon operators to make profits.

 

As I said in my previous post that if one was to focus attention on single sex groups (note also that what began this thread was a boat stuck under a bridge helmed by...a couple) where do you draw the line? The larger parties that hire boats do bring in a good amount of revenue to the boatyards and local businesses throughout the main season, they already have to pay increased personal deposits for each crew member upon arrival at the boatyard, so I feel it would be very unfair to panelise them further. With higher deposits.

I don’t think higher deposits would work – if anything it would put people of hiring on the Broads, after all it is a great deal of money to find on top of already expensive hire terms for a holiday. Having said this I don’t agree with the CDW – in two parts.  Firstly it is not insurance and secondly it is too variable among different boatyards for often very similar boats. 

 

There are many things a CDW does not cover you for, such as loosing a fender, a mop, an aerial to name but three – it would not cover you for if you were negligent and hit another boat, bridge or caused damage to a third party all because it is not insurance which is why I feel things should be regularised across the board for example £45.00 non-refundable charge and call it ‘FMC’ (Fleet Maintenance Charge)  - because that is really what these ‘waivers’ help pay for  the end of the day.

 

As it stands the CDW charges for each hire – and think about how many there would be - boat after boat, week in and out over the year these sums add up and will pay for things like new flooring, fenders, painting costs etc etc. I doubt very much boatyards have a separate account that such CDW payments go into and are held in reserve for big repair bills when foolish hirers crash into things.

 

So a more sensible approach that would not put off hirers would be say a £300.00 refundable deposit – not too high, not too small but enough – indeed frankly I am sure if you had it at £50.00 and said if you bring the boat back as you take it your get this money back you’d get people take greater care.

 

Finally, as a thought how about the a scheme which like the CDW is a non-refundable amount taken from the hirer, but if you return the boat back undamaged you get a discount equal to this amount in terms of a voucher of another hire within  12 months.  So while the careful hirer does not get any actual hard cash back, they benefit in a discount off their next hire which in turn helps keep a customer loyal to the boatyard in question while also hopefully causing customers to take greater care of the boats.