Admit it - Who did it?

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Anytime I have hired a boat, they always enquirie how often I have done so before. So the hire companies are looking for a degree of honesty here, and I'm sure they can quite accurately gauge your level of competence and knowledge from the handover.

Also the clearance is always marked next to the wheel, and all bridges give you a height check well in advance . There is also a lot of info in the skippers manual. Apart from babysitting you for a week is their really much more they can do? Some people are just ignorant/thick and beyond any advice.

 

Maybe so, but to some, hadling a boat and taking everything in at once is pretty daunting, so should we say they should`nt be allowed to hire a boat?.

[Wonderwall]

Maybe so, but to some, hadling a boat and taking everything in at once is pretty daunting, so should we say they should`nt be allowed to hire a boat?.

Remember we ( or I was!) talking mainly about people trying to fit a nine foot structure through an eight foot gap. It shouldn't be too hard to get that message over!!! Some people just refuse to listen though, that's the problem I suppose.

[LondonRascal]

I've mentioned this before - and will here, that one has to remember the reason people come on the Norfolk Broads be it as a first time or their 10th overwhelmingly as a holiday.

 

Now what happens on that holiday is down the individual, some want to do very little, others it is all about the fishing or some may want to explore every nook and cranny.

 

Now someone like Andy at Freedom can be far more 'hands on' with the customers and gauge each as to their experience and character and it does not take an expert to know when something needs to be explained a little bit differently or gone over again to get the penny to drop - while others grasp things within moments.

 

The larger the yard though the more this sort of work gets delegated - from the initial welcome to directions to the boat it is critical that the first employee who then steps on the boat and takes the hirers through the boats systems etc is of sufficient calibre to get the important information over without it feeling like a lecture - while also being aware of individual characteristics of people and the circumstances that are present.

 

I've seen occasions where the above simple does not happen - where because of pressures on handovers and the sheer number of parties taking over boats things can be rushed or worst still seasonal staff while very much aware of the boat and rules of the river etc lack the maturity and understanding that only a few years of doing such and being around different people and situations can bring.

 

You'd deal with a couple very much differently to a family of 6 with young kids excitedly rushing about - in short you need to get what needs to be said across to someone who is not being distracted too much.  Despite everything though there are always the surprises - someone you think might be proficient in boating actually does not know about what currents can do and as a result might come to moor at the likes of Reedham with the current and smack into the quay heading doing a lot of damage in the  process.

 

It is a hard balance where you would not want things too deep or too complex so as not to put off 'newbies'.  I was very surprised and great credit has to be given to Richardson's for their Captains' Manual on board every boat - very simply laid out, grey, orange and white colours keep things uniform and easy on the eye and nothing is over explained - but good quick tips help out novices from how to tie knots to what to do if the engine does not start.  Herbert Woods on the other hand while very colourful has tabbed sectional dividers for many different things and it feels overly 'busy' with a great deal of items covered. Barnes Brinkcraft has very little information about the boat in question referring hirers to call the boatyard for even the smallest of things, and relies on standard Hoseason's boating information for the likes of how to moor and river rules.

 

Every boat has information at the helm about the height of the boat  - granted I've hired some without RPM to MPH information - but there really is very little one can say if a boat gets trapped under a bridge other than it was the hirers call.  Take myself as a good example coming through Vauxhall Bridge at Yarmouth, I knew the height of the boat andI knew the avaialble height under the bridge but blimey depsite there being more height indicated under the bridge than that of the boats airdraft, it did make me nervous none the less.  I can only guess that having got under one bridge the hirers in the Alpha Caft boat believed  they would make it under the other - but since they are not here to put their side over, and since Alpha Craft have not commented for anyone here including me to say anything on what happened is really just guess work.

 

What I do think might be handy is more emphasis on hand over's about what may be a financial responsibility to a hirer such as if you are negligent and do a bunch of damage don't think your walk away scot free and the damage waiver will cover all your liability.

[dnks34]

The hire firms just need to find a way of weeding out the stupid hirers and also the sensible ones with the potential to be reckless. I agree that the CDW probably leads to a lot of this type of thing and handing over a significant cash sum or having it held on a credit card at the start of each hire would certainly kerb a lot of this. In my opinion of course.

[Baitrunner]

Mr mod. My last post should have read they chose NOT to accept my advice.

I do think a bigger damage waiver might help make people think twice. at least if they don't the hire companies will get a bit if money to help fund repairs.

[alexandlorna]

When you have people arriving at Ludham Bridge and shouting "will we get under mate?" , you have to ask a few questions about them

The really amazing ones are those charmed few who get to the bridge and ask  "the" question, and  when I have replied how high is your boat , they cant say .......

Even more mind boggling are the couple of helmspersons (note the PC ) who when told of the magical properties of the bridge height marker , just said "oh is that what that is , how do you read it?"

 

More so since one had come from Brundall apparently having negotiated all bridges by pure chance !!!!!!!!!!!

 

The other thing is that the very name Ludham Bridge should be a clue as to the nature of the obstacle , yet lots of folk still arrive unprepared in any way whatsoever

 

And its not only hire boats who lose bits there , especially tv arials

 

You cant allow for idiocy.....

[BroadScot]

 

 

Mr mod. My last post should have read they chose NOT to accept my advice. 

Sorted Mark.

 

 

Iain.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I think there`s a few comments here which just go to prove some of my concerns. First somebody mentions about people being "thick", , so if someone doing a handover is`nt very good at describing something, so the hirer has`nt absorbed it, so, not wanting to sound "thick", they shy away from saying "can you go through that again, i could`nt quite understand what you mean"..

 

second, on all boats i`ve hired, on EVERY handover (ok, so after several years, i`ve gained a lot of knowledge) i`ve NEVER EVER been shown a picture or diagram of a bridge height gauge, or indeed, how to read them. Does that not explain something?.

 

Perhapps if the hire yards were to go back to having all boats in their fleets specifically designed to negotiate ALL broads bridges, we WOULD`NT be having this conversation.

 

It worked well up till the end of the 70s. so why not bring them back.

[alexandlorna]

I agree with many points made here , but is a bridge marker not self explanatory?

Ditto the plate that tells you the boats airdraught, which term was always explained to me at Richos very carefully .

 

I do know from speaking to a guy who did handovers for years , that he could always tell those that were interested and those who were not.

 

I love the ones who arrive at the bridge having a major domestic on board , usually a guy who sits there like a buffoon drifting , unable to make a choice , but never willing to relinquish the helm to his good lady - these are the ones I was told never listen at handover - cos they already know it all.....

[littlesprite]

Sometimes people just make a mistake!  you can train people, refine the handovers and still people will have accidents,  it doesn't make them bad people just human.

[JawsOrca]

I think as martin said things are going to happen when you get complete novices in holiday mood. I see it every day driving around gatwick airport.. as soon it's holiday mood people just lose all sense of logic..

 

Personally I think enough is done already.. there's signs on the boats, signs on the bridges match the two together and decide.. there's only so much people can be told and take in during the handovers.. us humans learn our own way through experiencing.. Perhaps the best advise to people is don't do something new without fully understanding what's going on (If you are not read the handbook or call the yard).  

 

Has anyone seen mustang out on the rivers? is she all fixed and earning her keep? (Let's hope so). 

 

[Oddfellow]

edit.....

 

How many first time hirers are even aware that there are low bridges, or bridges where acess is restricted due to tidal differences, and i mean customers asking the hirefleets, not the fleets giving information. i bet you can count the number on the fingers of one hand?. It would be good to hear from Andy (Freedom) or Clive (Richardsons) of how many first time hirers actually ask about bridges when they first enquire and book a boat, i wonder what the answer will be?. 

 

I`d like to point out, that last sentance is in NO way meant as a criticism to Andy or Clive, just an honest question.

Not many. Most that ask do so in reference to Potter Heigham Bridge.

 

Any damage done to the top of our boats is not covered by the CDW - damage to the roofline can only be caused by negligence or wilful misuse which the CDW of most operators does not cover.

 

I can't directly comment on handovers from other yards as I have no first hand experience of them, but I hear stories that make me worry. One boater last year on a vessel from up north got to us on day two or three and didn't even know how to put the boat into reverse. I suspect that it was more luck than anything else that they had managed to moor anywhere at all, let alone get through Breydon.

 

Common sense is a growing misnomer, for sure.

 

Our biggest concerns are often raised by those who want a 10 minute handover because they have done it for years, live on a boat or have some kind of certificate. Invariably, these people have little real boat handing experience and simply can't translate what they know about a power boat or narrow boat into a 40ft Broads cruiser and go on to prove to us they can't do it when the wheel is handed over to them on the showout.

 

Showouts aren't the be-all and end-all. A good one can stave off problems, but there's a lot of information to impart and it's difficult for US to remember it sometimes; partly why we have a handover ticksheet of some 64 points (I kid you not). Expecting our customers to remember it all is probably a tall order.

[MBA Marine]

A couple of weeks back I went to boat on the moorings in Wroxham (Hoveton) along came a hire craft 35' ish center cockpit, mooring up for the pilot to take them through the bridge, now in true sitting on the fence style I cannot remember what yard it was from but they were making a complete balls up of what was a fairly simple stern moor.  I did not do what to most would have been the easy option and pull them round when they were 90 degrees out and on the bows of the boats already moored, I took a whole 2mins out of my day and calmly talked to the man at the helm, I sat on the bow of the boat I was on and they  wanted to pull in beside, then just talked him through the operation, I got the feeling that was the most tuition he had or the most he had actually listened to, I hope I helped him with basic skills for the time they moor.

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Andy,

 

I agree to some point regarding people who have experience on other waterways are boat aware but are totally out of their comfort zone when holidaying on the broads, the wind and tides are not fully appreciated.

 

Training on all waterways these days is more involved and more time consuming both for the hirer and the boat yard.

 

I am sure you tell if someone is try to pull the wool over your eyes regarding their experience. A few minutes at the helm is usually a sign of someone's competence regarding their boat handling, of course this does not mean they are taking in all of the procedures you are taking about, engine checks, toilet operation, heating and all of the safety equipment. 

 

Do you limit your instruction to one person (the skipper)? we have found that on the canals these days that instructions are usually given to two of the crew.

 

Been boating for 41 years but only 15 on the Broads, guess that makes me a novice

 

Regards

Alan

[Wussername]

There are several factors concerning incidents on the Broads. Nothing has changed really over the last decade or so, and neither will it, unless there is a tragedy which prompts the authorities to act.

 

To put the whole thing into perspective the vast majority of holiday makers and private owners are people who are responsible and simply enjoy a peaceful and relaxing time on the river.

 

However, you only need one person, who travels say from Wroxham to Stalham in one day in an inconsiderate manner who upsets countless holiday makers as he charges down river and up the Ant.

 

Unfortunately we always seem to get at least one or two a week.

 

Discounting the responsible visitors, others may be as follows:

 

The first are the holiday maker who fall into three main categories.

1 Those who think they know, but don't.
2 Those who don't want to know, but should.
3 Those who arrive at the boatyard in a trance, but are unaware.

The first will not be told anything, the second couldn't care less and the third are so disorientated anything that you tell them will be completely lost and forgotten.

 

As for the so called trial run. Some trial run drivers lack experience, some may not have ventured far from the boat yard itself. Indeed a north river man might well have never ventured south and vice versa.

 

The trial run will vary considerably from one boat yard to another. There is no standard documentation or procedures between any of them. Is it any wonder then that the behaviour of some lacks a degree of discipline.

 

 Does it not follow that incidents and accidents will happen.

A large percentage of holiday makers, on arrival, will have already decided to stay on the northern rivers. Take bridges for example, only two to really worry about. Both of which you probably cannot get under, you are told that you are not to go under, or you are told that you can go under but you must use the services of a pilot.

A smaller percentage will inform that they will be going south. Should they not have a greater, more intensive trial run, by someone who is conversant with the different conditions and indeed bridges that they are likely to meet? I think that they should. But I don't think that this is the case.

 

And finally the private owner. He can migrate from holidaymaker to owner with very little tuition in between. He may well upgrade from a small cruiser to something grander, with little or no experience. The red ensign proudly fluttering on the stern does not necessarily signify skill or judgement. In some instances, not all I hasten to add, the flag sometimes denotes that the owner feels somewhat superior and beyond reproach.

 

I am constantly amazed at people who have no idea whatsoever on how to moor a boat stern on. I was at Womack the other day, not a challenging place to moor a boat, the poor chap had not a clue, it was evident from the outset that the stern mooring was simply not going to happen. I instructed him from the bank and the manoeuvre was accomplished in a matter of minutes. After a lot of handshakes with the crew I asked if they had received instruction on mooring a boat. The answer was no!

 

The same can be witnessed with side on moorings, arriving and leaving.

As boats get larger, more expensive, more gadgets from thrusters, to camera's, to hot tubs and whirl pools and so forth, so does the feeling of vulnerability, of insecurity become less evident. There is this feeling of invincibility, what could possibly go wrong!

Well, if you ignore the basics quite a lot actually.

[Hockham Admiral]

 Well it all depends on whether they use the dreaded CDW or a deposit system, because IMHO the CDW is the reason for most of the nonsense that takes place on The Broads.

 

I agree with you, Keith.

 

In Holland we had to pay a 500 Euro deposit and they were pretty keen on the scrutiny when we returned her!

[imtamping2]

There are several factors concerning incidents on the Broads. Nothing has changed really over the last decade or so, and neither will it, unless there is a tragedy which prompts the authorities to act.

 

To put the whole thing into perspective the vast majority of holiday makers and private owners are people who are responsible and simply enjoy a peaceful and relaxing time on the river.

 

However, you only need one person, who travels say from Wroxham to Stalham in one day in an inconsiderate manner who upsets countless holiday makers as he charges down river and up the Ant.

 

Unfortunately we always seem to get at least one or two a week.

 

Discounting the responsible visitors, others may be as follows:

 

The first are the holiday maker who fall into three main categories.

1 Those who think they know, but don't.

2 Those who don't want to know, but should.

3 Those who arrive at the boatyard in a trance, but are unaware.

The first will not be told anything, the second couldn't care less and the third are so disorientated anything that you tell them will be completely lost and forgotten.

 

As for the so called trial run. Some trial run drivers lack experience, some may not have ventured far from the boat yard itself. Indeed a north river man might well have never ventured south and vice versa.

 

The trial run will vary considerably from one boat yard to another. There is no standard documentation or procedures between any of them. Is it any wonder then that the behaviour of some lacks a degree of discipline.

 

 Does it not follow that incidents and accidents will happen.

A large percentage of holiday makers, on arrival, will have already decided to stay on the northern rivers. Take bridges for example, only two to really worry about. Both of which you probably cannot get under, you are told that you are not to go under, or you are told that you can go under but you must use the services of a pilot.

A smaller percentage will inform that they will be going south. Should they not have a greater, more intensive trial run, by someone who is conversant with the different conditions and indeed bridges that they are likely to meet? I think that they should. But I don't think that this is the case.

 

And finally the private owner. He can migrate from holidaymaker to owner with very little tuition in between. He may well upgrade from a small cruiser to something grander, with little or no experience. The red ensign proudly fluttering on the stern does not necessarily signify skill or judgement. In some instances, not all I hasten to add, the flag sometimes denotes that the owner feels somewhat superior and beyond reproach.

 

I am constantly amazed at people who have no idea whatsoever on how to moor a boat stern on. I was at Womack the other day, not a challenging place to moor a boat, the poor chap had not a clue, it was evident from the outset that the stern mooring was simply not going to happen. I instructed him from the bank and the manoeuvre was accomplished in a matter of minutes. After a lot of handshakes with the crew I asked if they had received instruction on mooring a boat. The answer was no!

 

The same can be witnessed with side on moorings, arriving and leaving.

As boats get larger, more expensive, more gadgets from thrusters, to camera's, to hot tubs and whirl pools and so forth, so does the feeling of vulnerability, of insecurity become less evident. There is this feeling of invincibility, what could possibly go wrong!

Well, if you ignore the basics quite a lot actually.

 

 

Very well put W........ got to get me one of those superior flags !!!

[JawsOrca]

Very well put W........ got to get me one of those superior flags !!!

 

ADVERTISEMENT.

 

The nbn burgees can be brought here and add an instant superior feel to any and all boat...   

[lampini]

 

 

Common sense is a growing misnomer, for sure.

 

 

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Andy - or is it just me turning into Victoria Meldrew in my old age?

 

Years ago, folk used to go boating in order to learn how to boat! I know my family did, and that's most of the fun for me.. 

 

These days a lot of hirers just seem to want a mobile flat, with the process of driving it around being a mere inconvenience... Can't understand it myself..

 

Looking forward to that 64 point checklist Andy!!!

[RayandCarole]

As a professional mariner from leaving school in 1976 until retiring from seafaring in 2006 with 16 years in command of tankers up to 400,000 tons I have handled most size of vessels including my own private boats and have never had a serious accident or incident.

I do have to admit though I still sometimes make a right a*se of it much to Caroles amusement

Ray & Carole

[JawsOrca]

I must admit if anyone saw me last weekend trying to handle the boat in that tiny breeze I would dread to think what they would think lol.. I couldn't even moor side on let alone stern on    If it was scaled up to a tanker geez I think we would of ended up through the dock... gulp

 

With regards to superior flags.. there is nothing more superior than those with a bloody blue ensign... grrrr     lol

[fishtone]

Well done Ray, nice to see someone admit to making mistakes sometimes  It just goes to prove however experienced you are things can go wrong. Tony

[Matt]

I think people have always made these kinds of mistakes on boats but nowadays everybody has a camera and these photos are so easily shared.

[BroadScot]

Right then, let's go back over forty years, one VERY excited holidaymaker keen as mustard to go on his first ever boating holiday, ME! Ruth had been three years previous with her parents and sister with Alan Johnsons, Acle on Sharmaine.

 

Our boat for our first holiday was SunGlory from Porter & Haylett, which of course meant I had to negotiate Wroxham Bridge  . We were sitting in the old Horseshoes Bar having a light refreshment, honest no booze, yet!

 

Anyway, we had been told to go to the yard for 12.30pm it was the first week of the season and all the boats were stern on to the P&H quay. looking resplendent in their cream hulls.

 

Boat loaded up, I awaited the instructions how to handle this boat. Now at know point was it mentioned I had to negotiate Wroxham Bridge in the very near future. We had already decided to leave Colitishall till later in the week.

 

So Peter I think his name was, took us up the river under the bridge to the bend of the river and turned it round on a sixpence I seem to remember. So here I was, now at the helm a complete rookie we went up n back down that wee bit river till he was happy I could keep it straight-ish. Also working the gear handle. I made not too bad a job of bringing the boat back to their quayside. He pushed my bow back out and away we went to .....yep Wroxham Bridge ....So here we were 15/20 minutes Max coaching and I had this semi circular arch to attempt to get through unscathed! 

 

Thankfully SunGlory was only 6ft4" airdraft so I guess when I went through height really wasn't a issue, but, did I know that, nope, you bet I hadn't a clue! Beginners luck. my skills? So there you have it, in the early 1970's instruction at take over was the very bare minimum.

 

IMHO, 99% of those hiring are wishing to take in the information offered, but, are either knackered after a very long drive, or forget VERY QUICKLY everything they were told! Just my thoughts.

 

 

Iain.

[Gracie]

 As you know we have been Boating for years and although we don't need the trial run we always insist on a thorough run down of the Boat, it's good and bad points, even though we have the information about bridges when booking and in the manual we always insist in hearing it from the mouths of the engineers.

 

In our experience the yards we have hired from have always been thorough, anything we are not sure of we always ask and it's never been a problem. The problem lies with the people that know everything and won't be told anything because they already know it all, they are the ones that normally come a cropper and damage the Boats they have hired through hitting a bridge or some such. It doesn't matter how much information they are given , they know best and that is that. There's not a lot can be done with that attitude but also on the other side of the coin like Martin (Littlesprite) so rightly pointed out, there's the thoroughly decent Boater who can get into difficulties through no fault of his own and mistakes and mishaps happen. I remember years ago with my parents we were moored at Brundall, where the little shop used to be on the river front by Brooms I think, it was about 10am when a Bath tub full of men rammed the quay heading so hard which resulted in a hole in the side of the boat and a guy that was drinking beer in the front well nearly went overboard, my dad went over and took their ropes and said to them something about going far too fast and the guy replied "It doesn't matter it's not my Boat" needless to say my dad was disgusted. It's people like this that shouldn't be at the helm of a boat but how are hire yards supposed to know this when taking bookings. We have met some really nice stag and hen boats over the years but also met a couple of families from hell. If people want accident free boating environment it just ain't gonna happen, it's the nature of the game, take up golf instead, I suppose even then you could get hit by a golf ball or club lol

 

Grace