Toll's, is the policy unfair or even illegal?

[senator]

Having just changed my boat I have been caught up in the BA tolls rip off for the second time in my Broads Boating life and wonder what the collective opinion is.

In March I tolled my motor cruiser for the sum of £340. The boat was up for sale through various boat sales websites but on its home berth. The boat did not leave the marina at all and I would not have had to toll it had it not been for the BA instigating its adjacent waters policy.

4 weeks after April 1st the boat is sold, I have not been to the boat at all and still have the toll plaques as they have not even been put on the boat. The boat is leaving to go to Conway so will not be on the Broads, it takes a further 5 days to sort out the financials and then the boat makes one transit from Reedham to St Olaves so that it can be lifted out, put onto transport and removed from the Broads.

I then Purchase a Boat in Croatia and bring it back to the UK and put it on the Broads system on June the 6th. The toll for the new boat is £500

As the tolls are set the £340 paid for the first boat is tucked safely in the BA's pocket. I may not agree with this being non refundable but I can understand the justification that that money was allocated to the BA budget for the year and would leave a short fall if refunded.

What I can't understand is why I would then have to pay a further £500 to toll my new boat for 10 months use?

The initial budgeted sum is still there, the sold boat is not on the system, the differential between the old and new boat is extra un-budgeted revenue, so a benefit to the BA. Why then should it be necessary to charge 12 months full toll for 10 months use, on top of already putting away the original sum paid.

Although I have paid, it is under protest and I would now like to do what I can to bring an end to this profiteering.

In my opinion the facility to transfer the sum paid against the sum owing should exist. It may not be ideal but I would even be accepting of having to pay a whole years toll at the full rate on the new boat on the understanding that the previously paid sum be used in whole as part payment, so just the difference between the two vessels be paid.

What is the collective view of the Forum?

[MauriceMynah]

This is one of those topics that gets raised from time to time. My opinion is pretty straight forwards.

The more simple the system is, the less the chance of abuse and therefore the cheaper it is.

If the BA adopted a more complex system whereby refunds could be obtained the price would have to reflect the additional administrational costs along with the monies lost to those who abuse the system, and there would be many. 

 

I can for example suggest to you how you might abuse the system we have. What I would suggest would be illegal, it would defraud the BA and basically would end up with the rest of us paying a tiny fraction more money to cover it.

 

For every one who is tempted to commit this fraud we would all pay a tiny bit more until all the tiny bits add up to a significant amount.

 

Nope, sorry matey, when you change boats and it means bringing a new craft to the broads, you lose out.

Toll plaques are not transferable and not refundable and that's life!

[Polly]

Very frustrating, but I think MM is right.

[Hockham Admiral]

I'm non too sure but does the licence stay with the boat for the year regardless of who owns it?

[senator]

John the tolls do stay with the boat but if the boat is in North Wales they can not be used. There is the argument that if the boat is sold on the system it is still tolled for the year but is that not a transfer? would think the new owner would also have to toll the boat under the same act but then Mr Packman will interpret the rules in any way he sees fit.

 

To my mind, although the argument may be partly valid to not refund, I can see absolutely no justification to not use the already paid toll as part payment of the new boat. Exactly how much admin is involved in reducing the 12 month ticket by the sum already paid on the old boat?.  As far as I can see there is no cost or complication.

 

I m not known for just accepting things but if collective opinion is such that I am wrong fine, if not I could use all the help I can get in changing it.

[ranworthbreeze]

 

I'm non too sure but does the licence stay with the boat for the year regardless of who owns it?

 

That may be the case John, but the Broads Authority needs to be informed when an owner sells a tolled boat so they are aware where to send any renewal (if the boat is still on the Broads, I know not in this case).

The last thing a ex owner is to be contacted for any fees for recovery or disposal of a boat they once owned.

On a personal front I do not see it being to difficult to give refunds,the DVLA do this with cars so why not the Broads Authority.

Regards

Alan

[senator]

Alan, reading through it appears it is my duty to inform the BA if the vessel is sold to ensure that I do not receive further costs but at that point all the details would need to be change, I may be missing something but that should be all the admin required.

 

I can see a reason not to refund the tolls in any situation as for most boaters the hobby is seasonal. If people were so inclined they could lift the boat at the end of October and put it back in on April 1st and in the process reclaim 5 months tolls. This may be the right way to do things but would undoubtedly lead to an increase in tolls for everyone leaving there boats in the water year round, not to mention the strain on the amount of hard standing available in the Broads area.

 

What I am advocating is that when a boat is sold and removed from the system with the owner replacing the boat with another within the toll year the tolls already payed should be taken into consideration when paying to toll the new boat.

 

To keep it really simple it could just be a case of still paying a full years tolls at the full rate on the new boat, which you have to do currently, but reducing the amount paid by the toll already collected.

 

In my instance, 1st boat 12 months toll at £340. Second boat 12 months toll at £500 less already paid £340 leaving £160 to pay.

 

That still leaves me paying 12 months @ £41.66 for the new boat rather than 10 months @ £41.66 and 2 months @ £28.33 which would have been the monthly equivalent for the old boat. You could call that administration costs if you like. 

[senator]

Sorry Dave you posted while I was typing but I guess there is your answer from my side

[senator]

Hi Dave, I was advocating the same treatment for all groups. anyone taking a boat off the system and replacing it with another would be able to apply for this.

 

My boat was up for sale but if it is on your own berth it doesn't fit the rules, it has to be in the registered premises of a boat sales company although why this does not apply to all groups selling a boat I have no idea, or maybe one rule for one is OK if it suits.

[senator]

I wasn't in the country at the time as I was in Croatia and can prove it, but that is just going away from the real issue here and the issue that would be for every one is you can't charge someone a years tolls for two boats when they have only ever owned one at a time, which ever way you look at that it is unfair, unjust and plain old profiteering 

 

I would love to see the argument made for doing so without trying to hide it under a load of scare stories about what would happen if a butterfly flapped its wings.

[Matt]

Come the end of the season (say 1st October) everyone would put the boat up for sale and refund the toll. Come first of April put the boat in a family members name and put a new toll in place.........

[johnb]

Unfortunately for you and those in your position, this will only affect a few people, and then perhaps only once, therefore getting a lot of people to object to it and protest would probably be difficult. Hope the new boat and all the great times you will have will help to alleviate your sense of injustice.

[senator]

Really Mat? considering I am advocating a no refund policy how are you going to get any money back? the only thing I have said is that the money should be allowable in part payment towards your new toll, you could claim to have sold your old boat in October but you would have to pay out for another boat to get the transfer and before you say I'll toll a canoe, that would involve a refund and there are no refunds in my suggestion.

 

As I say, the only way to defend it is by hiding it under something else, there is no valid reason to adopt the policy that is in place.

 

Also already said that although a no refunds policy may be unfair at least it is justified.

[senator]

Thanks John,

 

Like I said not the sort to do nothing if something is wrong but just to counter there were not that many witches either but even the Broads no longer ducks them in the river.

 

Anything that is wrong should be changed and there is no reasonable argument to make this one right.

 

Oh and just to add, I did argue but ending up paying the extra £500, this is also likely to be the last boat I ever buy so realistically this is likely never to affect me. My argument now is purely to do everything I can to make the Broads Authority change its rules to prevent it profiteering from others

[Matt]

Really Mat? considering I am advocating a no refund policy how are you going to get any money back? the only thing I have said is that the money should be allowable in part payment towards your new toll, you could claim to have sold your old boat in October but you would have to pay out for another boat to get the transfer and before you say I'll toll a canoe, that would involve a refund and there are no refunds in my suggestion.

As I say, the only way to defend it is by hiding it under something else, there is no valid reason to adopt the policy that is in place.

Also already said that although a no refunds policy may be unfair at least it is justified.

Then the following year transfer it back to yourself and offset the 6 months banked from the year before..........

[senator]

Now you are really clutching at straws Matt. The argument was "you can't charge someone a years tolls for two boats when they have only ever owned one at a time",

 

 At no time did I mention carrying from one year to another, it was one years tolls on two boats so unless you can introduce another boat to your argument you are going to struggle.

 

The only people it may benefit are people that have more than one boat who could if they really wanted to remove one boat from the system and use the tolls paid on that to offset tolls on the other. 

 

Personally I wouldn't see a problem with that as if you only have one boat in the water why should you pay for two? it could be abused and create admin, possibly by those with a sailing boat and a motor boat wanting to change it on a daily basis but I don't see it being that difficult to only allow it once or maybe twice in a toll year.

[Matt]

You are probably right-I am clutching at straws but either way any change to the benefit of boat owners is going to mean less income for the BA which will mean tolls will go up.

[imtamping2]

I feel your pain........ but as the toll is not refundable and stays with the boat upon sale it becomes part of that very sale therefore you no longer have any rights to this.

If anyone should be perusing this is should the new owner who owns the boat and the toll plaque as well.

Thats my thoughts for what its worth.

[Warp]

I think that tolling the boat is correct. However I do think that the owner of a boat should be able to reclaim the remainder subject to some admin fee when removing their boat from the broads. I also think that the toll should be valid for a year starting from when it is paid for. I fail to believe that this is more complicated. It would also (eventually) spread the administrative load out over the year. Thus it would be like road tax.

 

This would not help the OP much who would still pay both amounts in full but would at least get a full year for his money on the new boat.

 

That said surely the difference on the amount is not worth the aggro compared to shipping the boat over from Croatia?! It must be a drop in the ocean?

[Warp]

The old car tax disks used to have the same colour coding idea with two colours active at any given time. The rangers are used to the fact that they're going to have to check a list to see if things have been paid for as it can be months before an owner visits their boat.

 

The cost would be either a radio call or a lookup on a computer. Compare that to the cost of printing and mailing all the confetti we have now! We should be pressing the BA to stop wasting money on the printing and the mailing and making everyone post ugly things on their pretty boats...

[JennyMorgan]

As it was selling the boat in March/April, in a private marina, well, I would have chanced it, as I suspect would many others. 

[senator]

imtamping2

Thanks for your response but going back to car tax in the absence of anything similar the tax used to be put on a car, with its registration stamped on and without date belonging to the car. 

 

Guess what happened to that if the owner didn't want to sell it with the vehicle.

 

The toll was of no use whatsoever in supplementing the sale, if the boat had been staying on the Broads then I would accept it as part of the sale, the reality of it is it is paid by me not the new owner. 

[imtamping2]

But that is the whole point......with the car tax you had the option to let it go with the car or cash it in and that was in the terms and conditions that you accepted by taxing the car.

 

With the boat toll you did not have that option and that would have been in the terms and conditions that you accepted by tolling the boat.

[MauriceMynah]

Senator, What you suggest could result in two valid plaques being issued for two different boats with only one toll having been paid.

 

Could this possibly be a situation open to abuse?

[senator]

MM pretty certain that the rangers use their little gizmo when checking boats, rather than relying on the plaque. 

 

a simple declaration that the toll plaques have been removed should cover it if the plaques can't be returned, in my case they could as they have not been applied to the boat.

 

and before you say a declaration is open to abuse, when was the last time you sent your insurance details with your toll payment?