Breydon posts idea

[Broads01]

There was some discussion this week in the thread about Wroxham Bridge pilot moorings regarding the posts system on Breydon. My view, as raised on that thread is that the current 'guess which side of the red or green post you have to be' system is inadequate.

This week I was lucky enough to visit Paris for the first Tim and take a boat ride on the Seine. At least one of the bridges the boat passed through had signage indicating the correct channel which simply consisted of a diamond shape each side of the channel. Each diamond shape had a red half and a white half with the white halves pointing towards the channel. Could this work on Breydon. Could the current posts simply be painted red down one side of each post, white the other (all posts, both sides of the channel) so white was always the safe side and red the danger side? This could be improved further by a diamond red and white sign on each post.

[Liberty]

Ah, CEVNI...

[kadensa]

I'm sorry, but if you can't understand the red/green markings,when it is clearly explained in all the manuals, then you have no business being in charge of a boat.

[andyhesford]

not the worst idea ive heard

[BroadScot]

Thank you Simon, I have been trying to remember where I had seen signs like that! I too have been on a Bateaux Bus there, Twice! Think the sign was down near Notre Dame.

 

 

Iain

[kfurbank]

Whilst Robin's ideas may have merit, as does this idea, it must be remembered that we are pandering to the minority who will not, cannot, do not want to understand the current system. Changing the system that has been in use for many years, that those of us who chose to, understand fully, is only going to alienate / confuse the majority of good people who come back year after year and have read and understood the right way to cross Breydon / pass those bridges. 

 

I have completed three return crossings of Breydon this week, just for the hell of it. In the past I have crossed in a really bad fog, night navigated Breydon, and helped to rescue a boat of Breydon. All it takes is an understanding of the current system. or any future system, some common sense and some reasonable precautions. When navigating in a fog, I had a good high res GPS track as backup. When night navigating the conditions were good and decent torches were on standby and lifejackets worn.

 

Breydon and its markings are not the problem. The people attempting to cross unprepared or at the wrong time are. For that, apart from hand holding, or a pilot service there is no answer.

[BroadScot]

 

 

 All it takes is an understanding of the current system. or any future system, some common sense and some reasonable precautions. 

So true Keith.

 

 

Iain.

[Warp]

The port and starboard markers should be kept as they are the correct markers for anyone coming in from the sea with even the most basic RYA or equivalent training.

That said some friendly arrows with 'stay this side' on them as Robin suggests might help the uninitiated or failing that help boatyards make negligence claims against the more outrageous types.

[Hockham Admiral]

Breydon and its markings are not the problem. The people attempting to cross unprepared or at the wrong time are. For that, apart from hand holding, or a pilot service there is no answer.

 

Harsh, perhaps, Keith, but very true............ 

[ZimbiIV]

It does not matter how idiot proof you make something, a better idiot will come along!

paul

[SwanR]

The port and starboard markers should be kept as they are the correct markers for anyone coming in from the sea with even the most basic RYA or equivalent training.

 

 

I had been racking my brains to try and remember what I had read somewhere about how you know whether you should have red or green to port or starboard, given they will be on the opposite side of you depending in which direction you are travelling.

 

Apologies as I know this is about Breydon, but the first time I ever went in Rockland Broad, because you have a channel to follow that effectively loops round, I was totally bewildered as to where I was supposed to be. You can see the other side of the circle and to the very inexperienced this looked really confusing and I had trouble deciding which red and green I was supposed to keep between!

 

As for Breydon, we've never done it but would be confident to do so now because of all the videos we've watched of everyone else. When we get our handover from the yard at the start of the hire they have always asked if we are going over Breydon Water and even though we have said we're not, they still run over some of the things you need to know and point us to the skipper's manual in case we change our minds.

[Poppy]

So many wouldn't know a 'Skipper's Manual' if tit bit 'em on the bum! Do they read it? My question is often more like 'Can they read?' 

[SwanR]

Have to admit that I do always read the skipper's manual - I'm one of those people who likes to devour every leaflet I can lay my hands on because it's all part of the excitement of being away from home. But ... you don't have time to read it until you have got safely moored up and unpacked, by which time you might have needed some of what is in it.

 

Most people are online, perhaps emailing out a link to an online version two weeks before the holiday start date, would be useful. I know lots of people still wouldn't read it but one or two might. And those one or two might be greatly helped by having had a look. And then you could plan for Breydon before you go ... and perhaps even have an idea about what the posts mean! 

[kadensa]

If I remember rightly, I think Richardsons' manual even gives a diagram of Breydon showing the correct course to take between the posts, so strictly speaking the ability to read should not be necessary!  However, Poppy is probably right in that some people will not bother to open it.

[kfurbank]

There's also a handy page on The BA website about crossing Breydon,

http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/navigating-the-broads/getting-safely-through-great-Yarmouth
 
and an even better description with diagram in The Broadcaster which can be downloaded from the following website,1

http://www.enjoythebroads.com/info/maps-publications

[Broads01]

Why should you have to read a manual to find out what posts mean? Just because the posts system has been in place for years doesn't mean its a good system. I'm not saying my idea is automatically the right system but I am saying the current system is completely flawed and needs replacement by one that's intuitive. Taking road signs as an example, I don't need to read a manual to tell me what a stop sign means.

[Poppy]

The red/ green system has been in use without problems for many, many years - without difficulties.   If it ain't broke, don't fix it  - especially for numpties!!

[Liberty]

Because it's an internationally recognised system.  

 

As a child, I was taught what the different colours mean on traffic lights.  And pedestrian crossings.  And red and blue on taps.

 

Why should people read the skippers' manual / Broadcaster / website / ask?  

 

For the same reason people know what traffic light colours mean.

[kadensa]

Taking road signs as an example, I don't need to read a manual to tell me what a stop sign means.

But there are plenty of road signs that you WOULD either need a manual or instruction in order to be able to read.

[kfurbank]

People need to remember that this is a series of rivers connected to the sea and that the area was originally run by The Great Yarmouth Port Authority. For any coaster coming in from the sea and going to Cantley, or Norwich the series of posts as they are now, IS EXACTLY what any helm would expect to see. The posts are really just a continuation of the lights that you would find at the harbour entrance. Unless you intend for The Broads to be closed off from the sea, I don't see how you can change the internationally recognised marks?

 

People should understand the basics of boating and know their Port from their Starboard side as that all helps. If in doubt just remember the saying "No Port left in the bottle" Port Red is left and Starboard Green. Therefore when navigating a channel remember to keep Red posts on your Left, Green on your right when going upriver away from the sea. The Yellow post or Cardinal mark at Yarmouth is to mark the exact point at which the junction of the two rivers meet and to avoid any confusion, because at that point depending on which way you are crossing, you move from going down river, to going up river and therefore the posts will change colour. To clarify when crossing Breydon from The Berney the Green posts will be on your left because you are heading down river. At the point you turn into The Bure you are now heading upriver and the Red marks will be on your Left. The exact point at which this change happens is the Yellow cardinal mark.

 

Even airplanes use Port and Starboard and their navigation lights on the wing tips conform to the same standard.

[Liberty]

Are you sure the yellow post is a Cardinal mark?  I took it as a special mark; in this case an indicator of change of direction of buoyage.  Same as Rockland Broad.

 

There is a Cardinal at the tip of the turn-tide, but the yellow post is purely yellow with no black markings or cones from memory.

 

There is another Cardinal on the Broads, but I can't remember where, but I don't think it's the mouth of the Bure.

[kfurbank]

I thought it was a Cardinal Mark, taken from The Trinity House website,
 
"Cardinal Marks are used in conjunction with the compass to indicate the direction from the mark in which the deepest navigable water lies, to draw attention to a bend, junction or fork in a channel, or to mark the end of a shoal."

 

I remember Rod having quite a lot to say about it when it was installed at great expense a few years back, but I cannot remember exactly what it was he said. Certainly there was something not quite right about the mark from memory.

[littlesprite]

People drive up the wrong side of motorways, they drive up one way streets, most will have had training and passed a test so whether it's bad signage , a momentary lapse in concentration, or idiots it still happens, rivers are no different  and if it can go wrong eventially it will..

[Warp]

I had been racking my brains to try and remember what I had read somewhere about how you know whether you should have red or green to port or starboard, given they will be on the opposite side of you depending in which direction you are travelling.

Apologies as I know this is about Breydon, but the first time I ever went in Rockland Broad, because you have a channel to follow that effectively loops round, I was totally bewildered as to where I was supposed to be. You can see the other side of the circle and to the very inexperienced this looked really confusing and I had trouble deciding which red and green I was supposed to keep between!

At sea I remember it as 'port to port to go to port'. I modify that thought on the broads to mean upriver. The problem with this is that the yanks had some sort of anti imperialist moment and did the exact opposite...

http://www.rya.org.uk/cruising/navigation/Pages/tips.aspx

[Liberty]

Yes IALA region 'b' for the Yanks.