Cheap Warm Air Heating - Is it possible?

[Oddfellow]

I think I might trust a Russian product more. 

These look remarkably familiar too.....

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Planar-2kW12-24V-Diesel-Air-Heater-Truck-Bus-Boat-Webasto-AirTop-Airtronic-Espar-/161928802670?hash=item25b3b5716e:g:vToAAOSweuxWSiXd

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Somebody mentioned Kia cars, A former colleague of mines wife bought a Kia Pride years ago. It was cheap, but it was not on a par quality wise with any of the mainstream makes. Now, there`s a Kia franchise a mile or so from where we live. I remarked to Karen only a few weeks ago on just how expensive Kia`s have become. You can buy an eqivalent sized Vauxhall, Ford, Volkswagon, Peugeot Renault etc etc for less. As for Chinese bikes, another former colleague bought a 125 Chinese custom bike, and the rear brake felt like wood, because they were built using incompatable materials. Within a month, the thing would`nt run properly due to a blocked carb, with meatl swarf in it, where did that come from?. Also, within 6 months it was going rusty, and electrical swwitches would`nt work properly. As has been stated above, Chinese stuff might look a great when you look at them in some show, but the truth is, they look a million dollars, but go 50 pence.

 

It`ll be at the very least another 10 years before Chinese stuff will be properly on a par with the mainstream manufacturers, so untill then, i`l stick to Japanese or European. I`d like to buy British all the time, but sadly, very little of the so called BRITISH products are actually built in this country. Even Triumph motorcycles are being built abroads, the Bonnevilles are built in Thailand, but i`m still going to buy one.

[TheQ]

The Kia Pride was a Mazda 121 hand me down, and a very reliable car, Kia was part owned by Ford until 86. It's now owned By Hyundai and some cars are made in the USA! I had one for 15 years it never let us down.

Mazda themselves are part owned by Ford, at one time it was 33% but now it's only about 3%

I had a Chinese  Motor 125  Scooter......

The steering was incorrectly assembled, the back wheel nut fell off after 600 miles,( and refused to stay on without Loctite) the ignition system failed. and after less than 5 years the rear suspension failed and was no longer available!!

it's best MPG was 75 but its best MPH was only 50 and that wasn't often.

I now have a Yamaha 125, it does 70MPH+ any day , never gets less than 100MPG and has never broken down. I've done more miles on it in two years than I did on the Chinese bike in 5 years. Mind you the Chinese bike was £1000, the Yamaha £3000.

[ZimbiIV]

I usually look at cheap imports this way, if it is cheaper to buy two go ahead and buy two, one for spares, if not buy the original.

paul

[grendel]

I have some input here - Japanese goods in the 60's and 70's - some of the best telescope lenses (and camera Lenses) in the world were being produced in japan in the 60's and 70's, during the war several german optics specialists from Zeiss went to japan and showed them how to make good optics, this they did, and production of the optics was one of the few things that was allowed after the war.

Some of the mechanical parts of the telescopes may have been made from inferior metals, but the optics are still to this day, excellent.

Now for the CE marking - about a year ago we had an industry wide warning about cables - with a CE mark, and all the correct markings printed along the cables - they were being offered cheap, and the reason why was that the conductors contained 25% less copper than they should have (thus being cheaper to produce).

These cables had been installed and had failed, in some instances by overheating and catching fire, as with only 75% of the cross section the cables were not able to carry the currents that the specification said that they should. To outward appearances all of the cables looked identical to the ones that had been copied, apart from the fact that less copper had been used, and the plastics used for the coatings were not the same, they looked identical. this is where the corner cutting becomes dangerous. the cables looked so good that reputable cable suppliers had been fooled, and so they went out to building sites as the real deal.

At one point these dodgy cables were being seized by the container full by customs and trading standards.

That said if the quality control is done right, the Chinese goods can be as good as if not better than other goods.

Grendel

 

[senator]

23 hours ago, JawsOrca said:

I'm sold on them. We looked very closely at a few for a number of boats. I'd do one the only things that put me off was the alternators on the small ones look cheap bespoke ones but we didn't get any further (Probably just make sure you can get a local alternative from a motor factor).

Have a chat to lancing marine before you go for a Chinese engine. Maybe ok on the Broads as you can swim to the bank.

lancing had a great reputation for marinising ford units, from what I understand when the company was sold the new management were under the misguided dilusion  that Chinese engines would do the job just as well. 

Shame about the reputation but if you have a dig around YBW it will give you something to think about

[senator]

4 minutes ago, grendel said:

 

That said if the quality control is done right, the Chinese goods can be as good as if not better than other goods.

Grendel

 

That is pretty much the problem. If you want to buy thousands and are prepared to spec it and put a team in China to look after the QC then fine. If you are buying a one off from alibaba then good luck to you. 

If you do fit the heater can I suggest you also fit some fire alarms and carbon monoxide detectors from a decent brand. They may be made in China but at least they will have at least some QC on them

[littlesprite]

Another example of how dodgy the Chinese can be is the chip fitted to their cars, it was designed to con the fuel test figures and make the engines appear cleaner than they were. You just can't trust these Chinese manufacturers, oh! hang on.

[senator]

5 hours ago, Paul said:

they're not bidding, they have the contract already. The Chinese will build it, the French are paying for it. Ever wonder why this country is stuffed

 

They should have started but unfortunately I heard there is a major flaw in the reactor model. One thing a dodgy webasto but a nuclear reactor that doesn't work is a little bit more frightening.

gets worse though. The U.K. Has a nuclear waste storage facility that is capable of making fuel rods out of the waste. The rods can only be used by certain type reactors but would it not be sensible for the uk to put these in and kill two birds with one stone? Use up the stored waste and provide energy in the process but the UK gov allow the country they spend the most effort keeping secrets from to build the most dangerous thing in the country

[HakunaMatata]

Hi Guys,

my personal opinion of cloned goods and sold much cheaper than the original is just leave them there. It doesnt matter if the come from China or Russia. Somebody put a lot of money and effort in it to invent or improve something and he is responsible for it, if it fails.

Why not paying this company for there investment ? The cloned things are in 90 % less Quality in many ways, the way its put together the material selection and so on.

Have seen the safety Test for theire Cars India and China both failed in nearly every section.

In the near History we germans was called good engineers, because not the money was the first too look at, the thing has to be perfect in material and function for a long time.

Especialy a heater where 10th or 100th of a mm count and the exact spec should be met to get a a warm boat with less fuel burn, this cannot be cloned without research just drilling a hole and put a pump on it make it work but safe ? economic ?

I personaly stay with the original, may be for a higher price but it gives them the possibility to make even better Heaters for the futue.

Le dùrachdan

[LondonRascal]

While it is commendable to take such an approach, people wish to have ever cheaper goods – it is why even reputable manufactures are increasingly cutting corners wherever they can – perhaps not with internal components but with the materials used (cheaper plastics, less use of metal etc).

Now I know none of us can say what these heaters are actually like – having not bought one and had a look inside and run it to see how it performs. Some people here just would not go to the risk of being the person to try it while others might.

I would be one of those who would give it a go, because if it stopped working after 18 months, no worries, buy another and still be ‘quid’s in’ from the real product.  What also annoys me increasingly is how many products are just licensed to companies and how some companies who used to have some reputation and actually produced good products are now nothing more than a name (take Polaroid). 

So would the copy heater perform as well, or for as long as the real braded on? In all honestly maybe not but, equally if you can replace some components with the real branded parts it begins to make even more sense and shows how good a copy the unit is.  I doubt it would cease to function within a year either, and that would be good enough for me – think how many of these are going to be in Russian and Chinese buses and trucks as they trundle across the icy regions of their respective countries.  

For every month it continued to work, in my mind would bring more happiness to me to have been the guinea pig to have tried it – the real scary thing for the larger manufactures in Europe is if the copies start to perform just as well as the real things.  

As for the company who paid all the money in R&D to begin - I can't afford to worry about that I'm afraid.  Just as I would never bother to shop at Maplin any longer. They charge too much for the identical products I can get elsewhere delivered to my door. If lots of people did as me and Maplin went under it is just how the cookie crumbles. Some will be loyal to the bitter end, the majority simply want a good price and money is what always talks the loudest at the end of the day.

 

[VetChugger]

I bet you can all recall the "Skoda" jokes as well! I suspect its Skoda who are smiling now!

 

[Oddfellow]

But Maplin is simply a retailer of products (many of which are cheap and nasty crap from China that you can easily buy online for less than half). Maplin has next to no r&d.

Eberspacher, Webasto, Rule, Jabsco and so on are different stories. 

Seaflow products look and feel a lot like Rule or Johnson, but in my experience, the quality of the materials is nothing like the same. 

What many of these Chinese outfits are doing is ripping off the R&D of quality companies and simply copying the products using lesser materials. That is criminal. There's no other word for it. 

Let's put it slightly differently; it's like the guy at the bootfair selling copied DVDs for £3 when the real ones cost £10.99 in the shops. 

 

[fishtone]

On the subject of Chinese copies do any members know of anyone brave enough to buy one of the Chinese outboards on the market. I stand corrected but I have been told a lot of the gears are made of plastic

[MBA Marine]

27 minutes ago, fishtone said:

On the subject of Chinese copies do any members know of anyone brave enough to buy one of the Chinese outboards on the market. I stand corrected but I have been told a lot of the gears are made of plastic

My experience of Parsun outboards is Run Away!!  I guess ok for very occasional light use, but leave them in the water at your peril the cast Alloy is the poorest quality rubbish ever!!

[TheQ]

One thing not noticed by many is that many major items with made in the UK  / EU / USA on them only have the final assembly there.  Ie. The circuit boards made in china, the cases made in India.

 Or the case of the M and S knickers which had the lace, elastic, and other bits all made in different countries then they were assembled in yet another, brought to Britain had the M+S label put in and packaged up and then that was enough to put a made in Britain label on it. Shortly after that was revealed M+S stopped claiming all their stock was made in Britain.

[LondonRascal]

I doubt very much one of these is going to kill – and often the clones are not that a manufacturer have copied all the parts one by one and made a copy of an original item - that is far too much work.

Far easy to just steal the plans. Where parts have been manufactured by a factory to be shipped to Europe for the real branded model and 'assembled by European workers' the plans have just been used to make a copy.

Sure this is theft, but in China, copyright and trademarks and intellectual rights is not something they bother much about and why if you have stuff manufactured over there you need to spend a great deal of money and time making sure your stuff is kept to be your stuff and not finding out to has been given to the uncle of a friend who knows someone who runs another factory and can make your stuff at half the price you charge.

With the likes of Alibaba opening up a direct route between factory and purchaser this can only increase.

 

[grendel]

-or just used the parts rejected by the real manufacturers quality control...

[LondonRascal]

39 minutes ago, Jonzo said:

You wouldn't buy a combi boiler from china off eBay and really there's not that much difference from a safety perspective.

Why not?  A man I who I follow for solar 'off gird' boat installs,  is an Expat living Hong Kong and has bought just one of these direct from a factory in in mainland China for his live aboard boat.  Having a great deal of electrical and engineering knowledge he took the same apart and it has proved to be very well manufactured and safe - the only thing required changing was to get the electrical part of the system and gas extraction fan to work with 24v.

If I had the need for one I would love to buy one and put it on test and see what happened.

But to buy the unit, a battery, a Jerry can and diesel and run the thing for no other reason than to see if it worked, and did not leak exhaust gases and the fuel solenoid did not go crazy and cause the thing to burst into flames would be be a bit pointless because I recon it would work just fine but I'd have no use for it.

I'd not be surprised  if then I'd be stuck with a unit nobody else would want because it was not the 'real thing' and likely too, others may say 'you just got lucky with that one' if it did not fail within a few weeks. 

I don't think I am too naive in this - I am often getting unbranded Chinese made products - it is just finding the right supplier who manufactures them the first time around, not the factory making a copy of the copy and I have as yet, not had anything fail on me. 

It is not just me, Shiela comes from a country whereby practically everything they buy new will be copies of branded goods flooding into the country from China - from rice cookers, to irons, washing machines etc but people simply do not think twice about 'will it be ok and work properly' they can't afford the real deal, so get the China copy.  Even the motorbikes are copies of the Japanese products which is why low paid workers can look like they have a better job and afford to buy a Honda or Suzuki - and why not, if you can swap the parts between the real and the copy lines get blurred.

A great example is this Apple Mac below - only, it is not an Apple Mac according to the Chinese, because an Apple does not have an orange key and it has not got the Apple logo but it is not a copy either it is an 'inspired design'

These 'inspired' products and have made China's smart phone and tablet manufacture Xiaomi very very rich with a net worth of $46 billion through 'inspiring' designs of Apple products. Be it their Apple TV, tablets, phones or computers. Things is, they also copy much of the chip-set inside and screens are just as good forresolution, so these 'inspired' (ok blatant copies) of Apple's products work as as well as they look and this is what will cause Apple some issue in China if people can look like they own an Apple product without having to actually pay the price tag the real deal has attached to it. 

[LondonRascal]

Would a BBS examiner know that the heater was not a genuine part - they are interested on if the install meets the requisite specifications for safety, not who made it or where and equally, if a fire was caused and an investigation showed the source likely began where the heater was situated, and from this could be determined it was the heater - why would an insurer not honor a claim?

You don't need to write to your insurer and say you've just installed a Eberspacher so why would they care if the heater was a Ding Tong Wong - they would not care, because they would not know nor need to.

The point of all of my postings on this thread is simple.  It does not matter the Forum, or the product or where the person hails from but the moment someone talks of a Chinese made product there is always so many people ready to say how it may not be truly CE certified, there is a good chance it will not work, it will probably be dangerous and likely be rubbish.

Should, God forbid, the poor person go ahead despite  all the the negativity, it will swing around to being told how brave they are (or foolish) and for them to let everyone else know how long it takes before it stops working. 

It is, to me all most unfair.

I am only too aware there is some terrible stuff out there - but there is some actually pretty good stuff too and its cheap enough that if it does not last as long as the 'real deal' you can just buy another and not have lost out BUT the thing that gets me the most annoyed is not peoples opinions, it is the actual major manufacturers who literally put their sticker on a product, and for that reason then charge double the unbranded identical version.  This is not so common in household electrical goods - though it can be found, but is far more prevalent  in more specialist markets like the marine sector.

Battery chargers, solar controllers and solar panels etc - all made in a factory but where different batches of them being labeled by different companies - either US or UK based.  identical product, same warranty, higher costs to the branded products.  I've seen videos where the same happens with clothing with just different labels sewn in identical jeans the result - massive price differences. If you have the time, weed out the truly awful tosh you can find pretty decent products at considerable less prices.

[LondonRascal]

China Outboards? Terrible ones out there t be honest,  but Parsun - not too bad, now with a 3 year warranty - a 4HP short shaft model delivered to your door for just £609.00. With most people only using these things for auxiliary means, a dinghy, or on the back of a small yacht they will not get massive use anyway. The big draw is they come in a great deal cheaper than a Honda for example.

Now with video reviews of them being used for several years, reports in some magazines now coming through too with less and less bad things to find about them - main issues seem to be the paint on the leg not being as good as main brands, or the lift handle being small and the need to take the lid off to check the oil level..Oh the bind!

I've personally seen them be used on an inshore lifeboat too which will get a lot of use - they really are the new 'Skoda' -  seen as rubbish to begin, but the doomsayers finding it harder to be as harsh when they are lasting better than expected in the real world.

 

 

 

[Oddfellow]

Where would you get service spares for a foreign import heater that has no European agent? Who would you get to service it? 

There are a lot of people on the forum who wouldn't take the risk, for sure.