Cheap Warm Air Heating - Is it possible?

[LondonRascal]

I’ve been having talking with my trading partners in China, their economy is not growing quite as they would like it and the shares are all over the place – it’s times like this I get the call.

Ok, so I was looking up how much sheets of Acrylic might cost and somehow ended up finding ‘parking heaters’ for sale.  Many will appreciate that warm air heaters are not a cheap thing to purchase, so imagine if you could get what is effectively a copy of a Webasto heater for under £300.00.  You can:

2Kw Heater or 5Kw Heater

Much of the parts seem specially similar to Webasto too, or you can just buy parts that fit your current heater - Glow plugs for about £15.00 for example.

Sure, it may be easy to say these things might not last in the long term, but I have a sneaky suspicion they probably work quite well so if you are on a tight budget and want to keep warm - or maybe just have a small weekend boat that never seemed worth spending a lot of money on for warm air heating this could be the opportunity.

 

 

[JawsOrca]

Looks good Robin.. It's nuts how China rips of everything though, they look identical to webastos! Just a word of warning, I suspect these aren't Marine grade;

When I brought our Webasto unit I was tempted to buy a lorry version but Tom at JPC Direct mentioned these aren't Marine grade, i.e Something to do with the exhaust not venting outside for lorries (as they don't need to because they aren't in the cabin space, unlike boats. (and your insurance is invalid if you use them - He's a good salesman!).

Just be careful. Saying that I bet China has a marine version (Not quite sure I'd have the guts to try it though!)

[Viking23]

Many items manufactured in the far East, especially items that are clones or copies, are often CE marked which may have been on the backs of the tests of the original manufacturer.

Often these CE marks are printed on items, as they think that's what this market required, without understanding that a CE mark means that the product has been tested to a Euro Norm legislation that is suitable for that product when placed in a particular market within the EU.

The CE declaration is then signed off by a senior member of the company who is responsible.

When items are manufactured outside of Europe, then it is up to the importer within the EU to ensure the product complies, and continues to comply with this legislation.

I worked for a UK Electronics manufacturer, and we imported power supplies, from all over, China, USA  (from our sister company) and The CE testing came under my responsibility.

I would say we rejected 80% of their designs as they failed to meet the CE regulations, with power supplies it was often over heating when the load was just over what the PSU was designed to give, a fuse with a load of 105- 110% overload, would take a long time to trip, unlike a short circuit, this would make them overheat, or the primary coil melt into the output coil winding making the output live, and without some thermal device, could actually catch fire, and some did.

We advised them what they had to do to meet these requirements, but then we had to take random samples and recheck them, just in case they made a  "Golden Unit" we were a self certifying company, so the buck stopped here.

So if anyone imports one of these units directly from outside the EU, then Buyer and / or User beware, the CE marked product may not meet the EU legislation, and may be faulty, or become faulty and potentially unsafe, and since we are dealing with Carbon Monoxide, fuel etc then these devices might be the last thing you ever bought.

These are just my thoughts based on a few years of experience.

 

[JennyMorgan]

There's a company not a million miles from me that buys in the Chinese versions and rebuilds them to UK specs, and makes a lot of money doing so!

[Viking23]

10 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

There's a company not a million miles from me that buys in the Chinese versions and rebuilds them to UK specs, and makes a lot of money doing so!

Since the UK company are the last people to work on them and supply to the European market, then they must provide the CE certification.

If I was buying one, first I would want to see the certificate, which all buyers are entitled to see at point of sale and within any operating instructions.

Any later mods that could affect the safety would mean recertification and declaration within the EU.

Just following on from my earlier post.

[LondonRascal]

Leave aside the rights and wrongs, CE conformity and so on it is another example of a product that clearly can be manufactured and sold (and still provide profit for the manufacturer) at a very attractive price.

The Chinese can produce some shocking stuff, but they also can produce some very good products without 'western intervention'.  A resent example was when my mum got a Huawei Honor 7 smartphone.  Online reviews either slate it as awful or are warm to it but seem to compare it to a high end Samsung. She is over moon with it though. It runs faster and is easier to use than her more costly Sony phone did and is 100% Chinese!  Because it is cheap to buy, the contract plan is less too and yet she now can enjoy a bunch more data and minutes included too.

Anyway, back to the heater:  Having looked into other versions of the heater, they do vary - which means it is not just one factory making them and others then passing them off as their own and these are made in their thousands. Further there seems one company that stands out a little more as they only make these heaters not a bunch of other products as well. 

Jp China Trade stand out as a little more professional and have a large selection of different hot air and water heaters and all the parts, vents and so on over at Ali Express: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/416052 

Having found out what I have so far, if I was going to get warm air heater I'd certainly get in touch with these people.  Will it destroy itself, set the boat on fire or spew diesel fumes inside the boat killing anyone - I doubt it very much and if had the spare cash, would buy one now simply to see how it performed.

[senator]

From personal experience, if left to their own devices the Chinese normally have scant regard for any product safety, especially when copying something cheaply.

Good products do come from china but usually designed in the west and produced under the QC of a western company.

Yes they can make everything cheaply but not only do they pay very little to their workforce, they also pay very little to the workforce building factory's and production machinery. It is cheap to employ people and cheap to set up.

Would I trust something as critical as a heater? think I will give that one a miss.

[LondonRascal]

I'm sorry it does rather annoy me - every time someone brings anything up about something made in 100% in China without outside design/help - take engines, be them inboard or outboard, or in this case heating systems people will undoubtedly say how they can't be good, or safe etc etc.

If you go looking for examples of where people have bought such and either have suffered terribly as a result or had good experiences with them you will be hard pressed. What you tend to find is more people saying how they can't possible be any good and how they would not trust them and  'good luck to those who do' type thing.

It took me an age to find actual, real life, long term reviews of Parsun outboards. The result - actually all very good, but a reoccurring problem was the paint application on the leg and propeller is not quite as good as say Honda, Mercury etc. I've even noticed Parsun outboards popping up on the back of a rescue RIB on Breydon, but am unsure if this was an inshore lifeboat or not but I made a mental note at the time 'so it's good enough for them'.

On Broad Ambition we have an alarm system that is has been made and designed in China - far far cheaper than the likes of Yale systems with far more features and even in the damp marine environment it is performing flawlessly.  The LED lighting - all direct from China, all working perfectly too.  You just need to find who is the actual manufacturer and not a 'middle man'.  The issue is not perhaps that these things will self destruct, but that people here and indeed in the likes of America see much of this as 'cheap tat' that is simply not up to the job compared to the larger brands. 

While that may have been the case in the past, increasingly the Chinese are upping their game (fair enough mostly through just copying) but I think unless one has a unit and put's it through its paces you can't comment at all on how safe it may be wired, or how well it may perform.

Another example that has nothing to do with China, is a Croatian engine marininser - SCAM Marine. They also sell through Turkey. They take Kubota based engines and do what Nanni does with them, but paint they paint them white and charge a lot less.

Maybe their company name was not the best choice,  but they sell on Alibaba too.  I am sure many would question them though and say 'can't be any good it's designed in Croatia and is too cheap'. Many said this about Japanese car manufactures in the 1980's - and now look where they are now.

[Bound2Please]

4 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

I'm sorry it does rather annoy me - every time someone brings anything up about something made in 100% in China without outside design/help - take engines, be them inboard or outboard, or in this case heating systems people will undoubtedly say how they can't be good, or safe etc etc.

Many said this about Japanese car manufactures in the 1980's - and now look where they are.

Robin in 1969 I talked my late dad into buying a new Toyota Corolla he had it until 1976, i then had it for about 5 or 6 years. Everyone said at the time its cheap jap cr@p will be dead in a couple of years.... Who's saying that now. He stayed loyal to toyota until he died in 2004.

I have been seriously looking at the Chinese 4 cylinder diesel engine for our boat. If we do in fact re engine her that will be what goes in.

[JawsOrca]

6 minutes ago, Charlie said:

I have been seriously looking at the Chinese 4 cylinder diesel engine for our boat. If we do in fact re engine her that will be what goes in.

I'm sold on them. We looked very closely at a few for a number of boats. I'd do one the only things that put me off was the alternators on the small ones look cheap bespoke ones but we didn't get any further (Probably just make sure you can get a local alternative from a motor factor).

[Viking23]

Robin, to quote your words " Putting one of the units through it's paces" is exactly mine and other people's points here.

By "testing" them in the UK, (or an EU Member state) this is what CE marking is about, if they conform to a spec,  great, if they don't, you feed back to the manufacturer, they modify them to suit, and the product is then suitable for the EU market. The importer puts his or her neck on the block and issues an appropriate certificate. BUT only then can it be legally sold within the EU market.

I don't think that anyone is saying that all China made products are unsafe just that those that enter the EU without some form of Quality control and certification just might be. Take a look at most electrical appliances, most are made in China,  I would generally trust those from major retailers, but a web based only site, I would question, just watch "Rip off Britain" Even then, some major retailers occasionally fall foul of fakes.

I have bought a fair few items from China, they come is as " Samples" I ignore any certification, and do my own assessment. For example I bought an IP 65 micro switch that I wanted for a home project, it was meant to be waterproof, but there were gaps around the seals so failed to meet the spec, so I was refunded without question, and the switch lies in the project drawer, it might get recycled for an indoor project, but only for low voltage, low current use, I doubt it meets the claimed  voltage or current spec either.

Now if I had bought the same switch from RS Components, CPC farnell, or Maplins to the same spec, I would expect it to meet the stated specification. It's all about trusting the seller in the UK. I guess the product sold by the companies mentioned above would have been manufactured in China anyway.

[SteveO]

If it is anything like the Chinese water pump I bought a few years ago, I would give this a wide berth. It performed OK for about 3 months and then died. Fortunately I had bought it from a UK trader on Ebay and was able to return it for a refund.

That's not to say that all Chinese stuff is rubbish - some is very good but I do find that, whilst Japanese and other enlightened manufacturers embrace "Continual Improvement" of their products and processes, some Chinese manufacturers focus solely on shaving pennies off their manufacturing costs. This often requires them to re-source key components from small local suppliers who have few quality controls in place.

Where the product design has been obtained from the West via the Chinese People's Liberation Army's  famed "internet research" methods, it is also unlikely that the manufacturer will know which aspects of a product's design and build can be changed safely and which cannot.

Be careful out there. CE can stand for Caveat Emptor!

Steve

[littlesprite]

What I have to laugh about is the insistence on a CE mark, a few weeks ago people were talking about 32amp/16amp reducer plugs and saying how they could easily fit a fuse and make them safe, the fact that doing so invalidates the CE certificate seemed irrelevant.

[senator]

Timber products from China are no where near European, Scandinavian or American standards, this despite having the same structural grades stamped on them. Plywood from China is rubbish, try using Chinese marine ply and see what happens when you get it wet.

Japan used to do exactly the same, they copied Brands but they made it cheaper, sure the first few years they fell apart or rusted away but they were cheap. Once they embraced the fact that the products needed to perform as well they jumped forward in leaps and bounds.

I'm sure a few Chinese companies are now at that stage but the vast majority aren't. 

Chinese Outboards, read the side by side reviews. at least 20% down on performance per HP over leading brands and getting parts for older stuff is near to impossible. I'm sure it has and will continue to improve but at what point does the performance become acceptable to you.

As far as a heater, Webasto and eberspatcher hardly have a name for fantastic reliability, could the Chinese copies be any worse? well it is a copy of something that is not that good in the first place.

 

[BroadScot]

Just bag and collect all the hot air that emits from a building the bottom of Whitehall any given day, but Wednesday is a good one to go for!

Iain

[LondonRascal]

Senator, you talk the talk where is your evidence?  Here is some of mine:

In October 2010 Motorboat & Yachting tested:

Yamaha 5hp outboard - from         £969

Parsun 5hp outboard - from            £696

Suzuki 5hp outboard - from            £999

Vector 5hp outboard - from            £729

Mariner 5hp outboard - from           £975

Honda 5hp outboard - from            £1,239

Hidea 5hp outboard - from             £699

And they said:

“The first of the Chinese motors to hit our shores, Parsun has been with us for some years now. The 5hp comes with remote or integral tank options.

The carrying handle was the worst of our test, being small, and almost impossible to hold with more than two fingers due to the fuel tap getting in the way.

The cowl is held in place by two plastic clips, but the only indication of how to lay it down was a tiny, almost indecipherable sign on one side.

There is no external indication of oil level, instead you have to remove the lid and the filler cap. The kill-cord clip was impossible to operate one-handed.

Pro: The Parsun 5hp was the joint cheapest outboard on test.

Con: The carrying handle was the worst of our test, being small, and almost impossible to hold with more than two fingers due to the fuel tap getting in the way.”

Now, to me for £696.00 versus a Honda’s £1,239.00 and the cons being lifting a cowling to see how much oil you’ve got and having to use two fingers to hold the carrying handle is small fry to the savings.  Even if it was 20% down on performance for the size, most people with this size of engine will use it as an auxiliary on a small sailing boat, or a larger dinghy so really, is that relevant? As long as it goes well, starts up when you need it to bugger the brand name I say.

I've also included a a PDF download of several Australian owners reviews of various Parsun engines after 3 years of use.  Interesting reading. 

Chinese marine ply is rubbish? Yes, some is indeed some is counterfeit - plenty is not though. Again it is about doing a lot of homework to see 'the wood from the trees' and buying from suppliers who are not the cowboys.

Give the chaps over there some slack I say. That's all. 

I look forward to the day that someone can buy something Chinese and not have to explain themselves - almost 'apologise' for doing so.

I know i am going on and have got 'on my high horse' here, but take my recent trip to the Boast Show in London and looking at expensive LED lighting systems all IP65 and good for marine use and noticing they were identical to, including their driver to those I had been looking at for a fraction of the price direct from China on Amazon.  Often these days companies are bringing in products and branding it as their own, when in fact it is just generic stuff.  Of course, not in all cases but it is interesting when you look a little closer and the components how many share the same.

It really was not that long ago that we had accepted Japan was making decent stuff, from electronics to cars but the South Koreans? Oh...no not so sure about that. 

Now look where Sony is and where Samsung are - or look at how far Kia Cars have come - slowly, but at a constant pace they have built massive market shares and now if you buy a Kia you are seen no differently than if you bought a Toyota. Mark my words, the Chinese might be getting there through the back down and 'looking over others backs' at their homework, but they are coming along very fast.

 

FB-171-parsun-report(1).pdf

[ChrisB]

I would ask (given their penchant for once only batch production of, especially electronic components) what is their commitment, in years, for supply of all spare parts. It is not worth saving money on a fixed unit like heating to be ripping it out a couple of years later because a part is unavailable.

Before I retired we had a spate of electronic failures in a variety of main control unit boards. Because they were situated offshore protecting gas turbines on rigs it was extremely serious. After many weeks investigation in the UK, Switzerland and China and at huge cost to the company the faults were traced to the programmables. It was found that the handling of both eprom and ram was the cause because our detailed instructions stated anti-static protection must be used at all times. The factory chose to ignore  the need for anti-static mats and earthed wrist bands and were spiking a proportion of the chips. We returned to getting the job done in Taiwan which was more expensive per unit but the on costs of all the failures was horrendous.

[Paul]

4 years ago I bought a cheap petrol rotovator imported from China. It cost £379. The closest equivalent from any other manufacturer was a Husqvarner at £899. I have back problems and needed a particular type, and this fitted the bill. Previously I had hired one at £60 per weekend twice a year. My thinking was if the chinese import lasted three years I would then be in credit. The first use was fine, second time out a tine hit a stone and snapped. There was no spare available in the UK and no other brand i could find would fit. A local blacksmith made me four spares at a cost of £60

In the second year it began to stall, the problem was the carburettor. The manufacture was so poor that a hole had formed in it. The engine was a honda copy so I ordered a Honda carb but it would not fit. Although it looked similar the ports were in different places. A local engineering company made me an adaptor plate. The new carb was £45 and the adaptor plate £60. The engine ran, though would still stall occasionally. Last year it ground to a halt. The gearbox which transferred drive to the tine shaft was stripped. No spare is available and making a new one from scratch is impractical. I sold it as spares or repair for £50. The cheap rotovator was not so cheap in the end. 

I drive a Honda, CRV. It was built in Japan in 2004. it will be twelve years old in a couple of months. It has travelled 207,000 miles. In that time it has been recalled once for a water seal on the headlamp to be replaced and except for tyres and brake pads until last years MOT it had been in for repair once. for a VTEC oil valve at 140k. For last years MOT it had new ball joints, plus their were advisories on the track rod ends and anti roll bar bushes. I replaced them all myself plus fitted new brake discs and service kits to the calipers whilst they were off the car. 

our neighbour, two doors up bought a Great Wall Steed in February 2014. The first problem was rainwater getting inside the hard top for the load bed. It had new seals fitted which made no difference. Eventually they supplied a new hard top which solved the problem. Half way back from france with the caravan that summer the car broke down. The breakdown company identified a failed differential and towed him home from Dover. The diff was replaced under warranty. No sooner than that being sorted it started flashing a warning light and losing power. It went to the garage who replaced a sensor, reset the engine management and sent it back. A week later the problem recurred. The problem was a failed fuel injector pump. It was replaced under warranty. The car was still less then six months old and had only 5k miles on it. Last year it started losing power again. after a number of unsuccessful repair attempts the dealership found cracks in the cylinder liners of three cylinders. They agreed to replace the engine under warranty.

Just before Christmas it arrived home on the back of an AA van. The replacement rear differential had failed. It has been replaced under warranty again. He has just traded it in at less than half what he paid for it against a Nissan Navarra. I very much doubt that car will see 200,000 miles.

Whilst there may be exceptions cheap chinese stuff is usually cheap for a reason. You get what you pay for. 

[CaptinDread]

chinese built 2003 AJS, after doing some minor work I found the frame had gone in 2 places, no welder would touch it, its sitting half stripped outside my mums house in cornwall never to be ridden again.

[quo vadis]

Oh well 

[Viking23]

13 hours ago, littlesprite said:

What I have to laugh about is the insistence on a CE mark, a few weeks ago people were talking about 32amp/16amp reducer plugs and saying how they could easily fit a fuse and make them safe, the fact that doing so invalidates the CE certificate seemed irrelevant.

It is my belief, that if you fit a fuse yourself, and are qualified to do so, and don't make the finished item available for general sale, then there is no issue. However there could be an issue based on safety, insulation, voltage creepage, over heating of fuse and fuse holder, sizing of interconnecting wire etc etc. Not something to be thrown together in the shed without some thought and calculations.

I do take your point about companies doing the mod, and selling it as an upgrade to the public, without further testing and certification, as they were the last company to work on them.  These may not comply to the original CE certification. Without reading the EN legislation and certificate  for the connector, it would be difficult to say.

 

 

[Viking23]

Did I hear it right that China might be bidding to make the next Nuclear power Station for the UK? 

Was it one of the space films like Armageddon, that someone said...This space craft was put together from components submitted by the lowest bidder?

On another point, on the Apollo 13 mission, they carried a roll or two of gaffer tape. They probably had a can of WD 40 too lol

If it moves and it shouldn't ... Gaffer tape.

If it should move and it doesn't...WD 40 lol

 

[TheQ]

One thing not mentioned is taxes, on top of the China + transport price, you'd have to add 2.5% import duty and then add 20% VAT on top of that . ( if I've read the government guide line right!) Then you have to pay the importing agents( ie DHL or the equivalent)  a large amount for collecting from you.

[Oddfellow]

19 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

Leave aside the rights and wrongs, CE conformity and so on it is another example of a product that clearly can be manufactured and sold (and still provide profit for the manufacturer) at a very attractive price.

 

Perhaps you miss the point that the bootlegger has had none of the R&D costs to cover and is unlikely to be using the same quality of materials. 

I had someone telling me last week whilst trying to beat me down on a very fair price for a Mercury outboard that he could buy a new one for just £150 or so more than I was asking. He told me that it was made on the same benches as the Mercury item.

Really? Why would they? 

In my experience,  these low-cost outboards may be based on a mercury / yamaha engine, but they are not the same standard. The quality of materials is never as good, but without having a skillset in Metallurgy, you may only realise that the gear box has fused with the leg too late and have to break both do do a service.  

 

[Paul]

2 hours ago, Viking23 said:

Did I hear it right that China might be bidding to make the next Nuclear power Station for the UK? 

they're not bidding, they have the contract already. The Chinese will build it, the French are paying for it. Ever wonder why this country is stuffed