Interesting Tolls Discussion

[CambridgeCabby]

Had to drive from Cambridge to Yare House to pay my toll for Cerise Lady as they won't permit it online or by phone for a new owner , grrrrr

annual toll is £360 ish but had a pleasant surprise, the previous owner had purchased a short visit toll which is able to be taken off the annual toll so "only" had to part with £122 , so went from being p**d off having to drive up to Norwich to feeling well pleased.

 

[kfurbank]

7 hours ago, DaveRolaves said:

This interesting thread has now being going for 6 weeks is there any update on the broads authority stand that licence holders have to confirm that they have boat insurance before being granted the issue of the licence to use their craft on the broads..

I have now progressed the complaint to a level three complaint, which means it now has to go to John Packman for his review. In the light of his comments made during a recent debate on another forum, and copied in my last post on this thread, I have quoted his words and included the relevant links to the FCA and Spanish DGS websites which contain reference to insurance companies that are NOT authorised to broker or underwrite insurance in the UK. Time to tell whether the man is true to his word or not? but he can no longer deny being made aware.

Stage 2 of the complaint was slightly protracted due to me receiving a 5 page response from the BA's solicitor (level 2 complaint response) which took a little while to digest, receive advice on, and respond to.

As expected the solicitor rejected the complaint on various very weak grounds, however the most pertinent point was where he said "I would agree that there is no reference in the Act or Byelaws to self declaration" then goes on to try and justify it anyway. He then goes on to point out "section 21(1) of the 2009 act sets out a procedure whereby an authorised officer of the Broads Authority may require such information or document as is available regarding any policy of insurance" etc.

This is not disputed, however there is a big difference between "declaration" and "information"

Information: Facts provided or learned about something or someone

Declaration: A formal or explicit statement or announcement

Source Oxforddictionaries.com

The powers under the act give them the right to seek information, as in request to see a copy of an insurance document, but don't extend to seeking a declaration from the vessel owner. Seeking information puts the onus where it should be, on the BA to check that your insurance complies. Making a declaration has legal implications should it then turn out that you do not have the correct insurance. As David Harris has said there is no reference in the Act or Byelaws to self declaration, I remain wary of making any such legal declaration and will continue to progress the complaint.

The Authority is assuming powers it does not have, whilst neglecting to use the powers it does have, as it then shifts the onus of responsibility from the Authority to the vessel owner.

The cheque for payment remains uncashed and with the toll office. I have passed the rangers six times on the river during this toll year, none have taken the opportunity to stop me and make a request to see insurance documents. Likewise there has been no formal request from Yare House, under the powers that the Authority unquestionably have, to see a copy of any insurance documents. Instead they are still insisting I make the declaration, which in all reality since the phone calls are not recorded and the paper and online declarations are so poorly worded are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, but at least it means they can continue to pay lip service to enforcing the third party insurance requirements, for now!

 

[Chelsea14Ian]

I am confused,Have owned two boats and have always applied  by phone.Filled out forms and got my tolls.Never had to go to Yare house.

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

I am confused,Have owned two boats and have always applied  by phone.Filled out forms and got my tolls.Never had to go to Yare house.

Ditto but for rather more than two boats. 

[vanessan]

As the boat had a previous short visit toll, maybe it has to be registered in person as it is to become a permanent Broads vessel. Just a thought.

[CambridgeCabby]

3 hours ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

I am confused,Have owned two boats and have always applied  by phone.Filled out forms and got my tolls.Never had to go to Yare house.

They said I could download a PDF print it off and send it in via snail mail , but due to the time element this was not a viable solution 

[JennyMorgan]

I just told them what sort of boat that I wanted to toll, sorted.

[CambridgeCabby]

Just now, JennyMorgan said:

I just told them what sort of boat that I wanted to toll, sorted.

But I presume you were already on their system as a current or previous toll payer 

[JennyMorgan]

Just now, CambridgeCabby said:

But I presume you were already on their system as a current or previous toll payer 

Regretfully yes, for over fifty years! Just wish that they wouldn't waste it 

[addicted]

They're out checking tolls abit on the early side this year A chap on a berth just a coup!e along from us  only acquired and berthed his boat last weekend arrived on it yesterday to find he had been given a ticket Perhaps on the back of the scandalous increase in the cost they are expecting  more non payers than usual and are getting on the case prematurely

 

 

Caro!e

Edited May 21, 2017 by addicted

[addicted]

They'd out checking g tolls s bit on

[ExMemberBobdog]

Tolls due on 1st April, and they're checking them second/third week of May?  How is that early?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, addicted said:

They're out checking tolls abit on the early side this year A chap on a berth just a coup!e along from us  only acquired and berthed his boat last weekend arrived on it yesterday to find he had been given a ticket Perhaps on the back of the scandalous increase in the cost they are expecting  more non payers than usual and are getting on the case prematurely

 

 

Caro!e

Not sure what prematurely is about as from 1st of April its a requirement , they defiantly have been checking marinas in the last few weeks because lots of were claiming adjacent waters aparantly and that came from a ranger  .

It kinda depends on what boat you have to view it as scandalous really , but I will say it was unfair , o see lots of people cruising in big boats with only 2 onboard , and I'm not saying that's wrong but if you want a big boat them you should be paying more than a smaller one as they take up less of the facilities on offer .

Everyone who place's a boat on the broads should have researched what rules they need too follow .

 

[JennyMorgan]

Just now, Bobdog said:

Tolls due on 1st April, and they're checking them second/third week of May?  How is that early?

Traditionally, if checking tolls can be seen as traditional, Whitsun has long been the end of the usual period of grace.

[dnks34]

If he berthed his boat last weekend and arrived to it yesterday surely in the time inbetween he ought to have arranged his toll!  I dont see what size has to do with it though. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dnks34 said:

If he berthed his boat last weekend and arrived to it yesterday surely in the time inbetween he ought to have arranged his toll!  I dont see what size has to do with it though. 

Size has nothing to do with it that was a remark regarding the scandalous  increaser which is as I pointed out more unfair than scandalous .

[ExMemberBobdog]

8 hours ago, Ricardo said:

Size has nothing to do with it

That's just what they say when they don't want to hurt your feelings.

[addicted]

15 hours ago, Ricardo said:

Not sure what prematurely is about as from 1st of April its a requirement , they defiantly have been checking marinas in the last few weeks because lots of were claiming adjacent waters aparantly and that came from a ranger  .

It kinda depends on what boat you have to view it as scandalous really , but I will say it was unfair , o see lots of people cruising in big boats with only 2 onboard , and I'm not saying that's wrong but if you want a big boat them you should be paying more than a smaller one as they take up less of the facilities on offer .

Everyone who place's a boat on the broads should have researched what rules they need too follow .

My comment was made simply because I've never seen a ranger checking licences on the marina as early in the year in the 7 years I've been on this marina. Usually it's early June before they've been round The chap who had got the ticket had only just received the necessary forms from the BA. I still think the percentage by which the duty has risen is scandalous ,I don't believe I said anything about big boats not paying their way clearly they will always incur a higher toll than a small boat. There is nothing unfair about that. I really don't see the relevence of how many peop!e are on board at any one time, or whose business it is for that matter.

 

Carole

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, addicted said:

 

Carole

I'm not sure why forms would be needed to be sent out tolls can be done online or over the phone , the fact is they can check at any time after April 1st n yes I got a ticket approx 5 yrs ago on Sunday 1st of April and I wasn't alone either .

Yes big boat have been hit hard but the scandalous thing is that the new system is unfair to more than just big cruiser's some yachts I believe have had very significant increase s and all for the small boat market to get reduction's and I recon that that's why BA are making a swoop on marinas and a like , there ate quite a lot of vessels on the yare that come out at night when BA aren't patrolling to head for the pub and are then hidden away in a marina some even unregistered ( mostly small sport's boats ) , every single boat that should be tolled and isn't has a direct effect on those that are tolled hence people should be actually congratulating BA for being active not condemning them .

[DaveRolaves]

This interesting thread has now being going for about 3 months is there any update on the broads authority stand that licence holders have to confirm that they have boat insurance before being granted the issue of the toll licence to use their craft on the broads.. Is the broads authority still insisting that boat owners have to confirm that they have third party insurance before they will issue a toll licence.

[quo vadis]

Have you not tolled your vessel yet ?

[kfurbank]

7 hours ago, quo vadis said:

Have you not tolled your vessel yet ?

Now there's an interesting question :-) The situation is currently as follows;

1. No written or verbal self declaration has been provided to the BA about my insurance policy.

2. The BA have been in possession of a cheque for the full amount of the toll since early April.

3. A check of the BA toll checker website shows my boat as being listed as tolled.

4. A check on my bank account website this morning show no funds have left my account, so they have either not presented the cheque, or it is in the process of being presented.

5. Three complaints have been raised against the BA and have now all progressed through all three stages of the BA complaint process and are now being progressed to LGO Local Government Ombudsmen level. A fourth, new complaint has been raised and is at stage one, regarding damage to my boat by a ranger.

6. The BA decided to pursue the formal approach of issuing a section 21 notice, in which they requested written confirmation that my insurance met the requirements of the act, despite enclosing a copy of section 21 which plainly states they are only entitled to request such information, or document. Bill Harris the BA solicitor has already conceded in correspondence to me that the Acts and Byelaws make no reference to self declaration of insurance. I have reminded them of this and as a gesture of goodwill enclosed a copy of my insurance policy document for them to decide if it meets the requirements of their act. The last I heard, this was being forwarded to the tolls office.

7. Bill Harris the BA's solicitor is now making contact with the FCA for an up to date position on a certain insurance company, and John Packman has assured me that Broads boat owners will be notified if any insurance company made known to them, fails to meet the requirements of the act. I will be following this up at the appropriate time.

8. Central to the BA's insistence on self declaration was that the Vessel Registration Byelaws 1997 section 20 Application for a toll receipt said that such application should be made on a form prescribed by the Authority. This they claim to be the self declaration form, even though you only tick a box online and agree it verbally when renewing over the phone. The vessel registration byelaws predate the 2009 Act that actually made third party insurance mandatory, and whilst they were retrospectively included into the Act, it is debatable whether section 20 was written in 1997 with third party insurance self declarations in mind. Since the toll receipt no longer needs to be displayed on the boat, it's use is somewhat redundant, but the BA insist this has been replaced by some other form of receipt. I made it plain that as the toll receipt did not need to be displayed that I was merely looking to pay the toll, not making an application for a toll receipt, therefore countering their somewhat tenuous link to the need to provide a self declaration, which I repeat Bill Harris has confirmed there is no reference to in the Act or byelaws. In reply I was informed that by paying the toll I am "ipso facto" making an application for a toll receipt.

9. It is somewhat ironic that I have not yet received an email confirming processing of the toll, or a toll receipt which appeared to be so central to the BA's insistence on self declaration.

So is my boat tolled? you decide  All I know is that I have not made any written or verbal self declaration on whether my insurance meets the requirements of the act.

 

 

[DaveRolaves]

Looks like the Broads Authority are taking their time in sorting the issue of the toll out but now that they have sight of the Insurance Certificate and providing it gives the cover they require then I guess that they will be in a position to cash the cheque and issue the toll.

[kfurbank]

The whole point being off course, it is for them to decide, not me to self declare.

[marshman]

Am I the only one thinking that somewhere along the line this is resulting in a complete waste of toll revenues over b****er all??