Well, This Kinda Got Me Thinking.

[MauriceMynah]

A funny thing happened on my way to the forum....Ok, not quite but at about midnight on Thursday night-Friday morning I was awoken by an alarm going off in the house. I thought it was one of our smoke alarms but it wasn't, it was our CO alarm. The central heating wasn't running at the time and the only possible source was our wood burning stove which was on it's last knockings of wood and would have gone out after an hour or so.

The first thing I discovered about our alarm was that it doesn't have a reset button and the alarm was going fit to bust. I took the alarm into the downstairs loo (where the air was purest... yeah it was and don't ask!) where after about ten minutes it stopped screeching at me. I had awoken Frances (my sister) to confirm that she wasn't dead, who's first comment was..." I thought I heard something... thought it was outside."

I brought the alarm back into the sitting room and placed it back in it's original position. We sat there for about half an hour and it didn't go off again. I did check that it was working ok with the test button and it was.

Now, this is where I started thinking. I still don't know if it was an alarm malfunction or if it had worked as it should have done. Nor do I know what action we should have taken. and I still don't know! Should I have phoned the fire brigade or the police? Should I have abandoned the house? What should I have done?

Further thinking caused me to wonder what should be done if one is on a boat and the CO alarm goes off for no apparent reason. OK, if an engine is running or the heating is on, or even if you are cooking, you can eliminate the source and continue boating. But what do you do if you can see or hear no source of CO? Do you ignore the alarm? do you call someone? if so who and when??

There's not a lot of point being told you are sleeping in a gas chamber if you're not going to do something about it.

As far as here at home goes, the alarm hasn't gone off since, and as far as we can tell we are still alive.

 

Sleep well all.  

[JennyMorgan]

Take the battery out, simples! 

[imtamping2]

Open all windows and doors to ventilate.

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, imtamping2 said:

Open all windows and doors to ventilate.

That is the first and most important.

Did you have a headache, or feel sick?

I would guess that these things don't give false alarms, I am sorry to say.

Cant see that it would have been your woodburner as it is flued up the chimney. Presumably you have air bricks near the woodburner, so that it can draw air in. Was the source coming in from outside?

If you are in doubt, I would get the company that services your central heating boiler to come and have a look round the house.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Vaughan
forum spell checker (again)

[Wussername]

10 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Take the battery out, simples! 

Sprouts perhaps?

[MauriceMynah]

We ventilated the house, there were no signs of an external source and we both felt fine, no headaches or nausea. No, what set it off is a mystery, but not the mystery I first wish to tackle, which is... what should one do if ones alarm goes off in this way after ventilating the house?. in short, We've got the alarm, how do we use it?

[Bound2Please]

13 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

We ventilated the house, there were no signs of an external source and we both felt fine, no headaches or nausea. No, what set it off is a mystery, but not the mystery I first wish to tackle, which is... what should one do if ones alarm goes off in this way after ventilating the house?. in short, We've got the alarm, how do we use it?

Very good point that John

Charlie

[Hockham Admiral]

They're not that expensive; so perhaps return it to the manufacturer and buy a new one?

[ExSurveyor]

I would get a second one and place them together on the basis that you will then know if the old one is faulty,  if neither go off after  couple of weeks you could place the older one elsewhere in  secondary risk area. 

[Regulo]

Obviously the fumes emanating from your chip-fat diesel enterprise.

[Timbo]

I have been reading the various threads on CO alarms. I 'had' to live with one of these things in a small living space for a year. Fitted by my housing association because it is a 'legal requirement'. The day after it was installed the nightmare began. Alarm constantly going off. Fire Brigade and Gas Board a permanent fixture at my flat as I live in adapted housing the alarm is wired up permanently to the warden service who phones the emergency services. The disruption spread to the flat above me as the alarm went off on a daily/nightly basis. They've tested the alarm,the boiler the gas supply, the neighbours upstairs have been tested, the houses either side have all been tested. On and on and on and on and on and on and on.... and then I cured it.

A conversation with the electrician sent out to inspect the alarm, for the 300 odd time in a year, revealed that the association discovered they were supposed to fit a door to the rear of my flat and a fire escape to the flat above as we only have one entrance/exit from the property situated by the kitchen. In their wisdom they decided they would fit CO alarms instead. 

So after a year of the Fire Brigade, Gas Board, Gas Engineers, Heating Engineers and electricians finding no problem with the device yet still not understanding why the damned thing went off daily...I cured it. While the electrician was there having a word with the firemen and the gas board I brought them out a cup of tea and handed them the CO alarm which was easily removed with a lump hammer. I got the electrician to sort out the wiring and send for a plasterer and I had the ceiling painted.

If I want a CO detector I will buy a canary.

 

[MauriceMynah]

16 minutes ago, Timbo said:

If I want a CO detector I will buy a canary.

Isn't that what Delia Smith did?

1 hour ago, psychicsurveyor said:

I would get a second one and place them together on the basis that you will then know if the old one is faulty,

Very sound advice, I shall do exactly that, but what action should I take if BOTH alarms go off in the middle of the night for no apparent reason?

 

1 hour ago, Hockham Admiral said:

They're not that expensive; so perhaps return it to the manufacturer and buy a new one?

The same question above applies.

 

1 hour ago, Regulo said:

Obviously the fumes emanating from your chip-fat diesel enterprise.

Quit possibly  CH₃OH fumes, but I hope its CO as it's easier to type, especially when  CH₃OH is mixed with KOH using transesterification resulting in PO₃NG. 

I do thank you for your replies but given the high profile CO alarms have been given of late I think my questions are important. If the alarm has been triggered in the middle of the night on a hire craft and there's no apparent cause, what advice (post "thoroughly ventilating") is given to the hirer?

What advice should be given to the hirer?

Should the hirer abandon ship?

What should the hirer do if on a wild mooring?

Should the hirer call 999 and if so which service should he/she ask for?

I hope you all see my point and don't think I'm just 'banging on about it' I honestly want to know.

 

[Timbo]

Simple advice given to me by the fire brigade.
"If in doubt, get out!"

Once your party is safely outside that's where it all get's...sort of vague as you say MM.
If hiring...then the skipper manual will have details...of course the procedure will have been explained on handover and the hirer will have read the skipper manual.

If owner...then you have to assume the manufacturer of the CO alarm will have given directions in the instruction booklet for the alarm.

I see what you are getting at...I wonder what Herbert Woods have put in their skippers Manual about this?
 

[Vaughan]

28 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I hope you all see my point and don't think I'm just 'banging on about it' I honestly want to know.

I very much see your point and I am not sure of the answer. You would obviously phone the yard emergency number, and they would have to come out to you, since an alarm has gone off. But what to do when the mechanic (in this case probably the manager), gets there? How do you find an obvious source of CO? At night? If there are no gas appliances burning with a yellow flame then, in all reality, the problem is not in the boat itself. Is it from outside, from someone's Webasto heater? If so, how do you prove it?

As I have said before on other threads, I fear that if the manager cannot convince his customers that they are not about to die, he may end up having to put them in a hotel for the night.

This is what used to happen with gas detectors and this is why we discontinued them, years ago. As Timbo says, I wonder if HW have thought this through? I fear they are going to find themselves with one or two problems this season.

Meantime, for the benefit of all members, I remain convinced that the risk of CO in a modern hire boat is minimal. I remain a bit suspicious about diesel heaters on moorings but I have proved that the CO produced by a diesel engine in neutral is pretty well nothing. Also, if a gas appliance is burning with a perfect blue flame with no yellow tip, then it is NOT producing CO.

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Vaughan
typo

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi John,

How old is your CO alarm? 

At home the one we have is situated at the bottom of our stairs about 9 foot above floor level I placed it in this position so it could monitor the boiler under the stairs cupboard and the kitchen.

We have a combined fire/CO alarm in this location and another fire alarm on the landing. The one at the bottom of the stairs started going off in the night, new batteries did not cure it, I installed it well over 7 years ago. It would seem that these types of alarm have a limited life and the new one I fitted now had printed on the instructions that it had a 7 years life.

It would be interesting to know what your alarms working life are?

Regards

Alan 

[ZimbiIV]

My response to MM is

Ventilate, if possible isolate source ( gas bottle), Evacuate.

But, and I shouldn't say this, try waving a tea towel in front of the detector for a minute and see if still goes off. if it does see above.

paul

[16E]

 

Evacuate - Ventilate -Investigate -Isolate

Unit life / battery is certainly a consideration.  Other things such as chimney sweeping and door seals come in to play.

My father-in-law had a detector that recorded the levels and did a staged alarm depending on the parts per million figure (ppm) detected and stored a history.

I found this one on-line  Recording CO alarm

 

[Wussername]

Purchasing CO Alarms

Most CO alarms currently last between 5 and 7 years. Quite a lot of CO alarms also do not warn you when they reach the end of their life, which means that they could be entirely useless while giving the impression of protection. Safelincs offers a FireAngel CO alarm that has a sensor life of ten years, a battery life of ten years and a ten year guarantee! The alarm also gives a warning when it reaches the end of its useful life.

If you wish to not only receive a warning in case of excessive carbon monoxide but an actual readout, even at low CO levels, choose a digital CO alarm.

Fire Service advice.

[Wussername]

Hi Vaughan. I am very interested in this matter. 

I missed your post  regarding CO emissions from diesel engines whilst in neutral, but agree entirely with the gas appliance bit. Are you able to send me a link to your original post. 

Thanks 

Andrew

Meantime, for the benefit of all members, I remain convinced that the risk of CO in a modern hire boat is minimal. I remain a bit suspicious about diesel heaters on moorings but I have proved that the CO produced by a diesel engine in neutral is pretty well nothing. Also, if a gas appliance is burning with a perfect blue flame with no yellow tip, then it is NOT producing CO.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

I missed your post  regarding CO emissions from diesel engines whilst in neutral, but agree entirely with the gas appliance bit. Are you able to send me a link to your original post. 

Cor, you get me chasing about, don't you?

It was on Broads related chat, the thread was "Running engines shock warning after tragedy" on page 4 of the thread, posted on Aug 13th.

Sorry I can't link it to you, but I know about diesel engines, not computers!

It's interesting how transient thinks become on this forum. We discuss so many subjects, but they pass by very quickly.

 

"The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel half a line, nor thy tears wash out a word of it."

I think I'd better go and open a bottle of wine.

 

[ranworthbreeze]

Vaughan is this the topic?

http://forum.norfolkbroadsnetwork.com/topic/11248-running-engines-shock-warning-following-tragedy/?page=4#comment-163835

Regards

Alan

[Vaughan]

That's great, thanks Alan. It was the one above it that I was referring to but the whole thread is worth a reprise, in view of this discussion.

[Vaughan]

I have just noticed I made another post in between!

The one Andrew wants is 4th from the top.

 

[Vaughan]

I believe I mentioned a while ago that all houses, not just rental properties, in France must now be fitted with a smoke alarm, by law.

I have read an article today in our local paper, and here is the basis of what it says. I am not going to translate it word for word!

 

There is a pressure group which is trying to have a law for CO detectors as well, since in 2014 there were 3500 domestic cases of CO intoxication, in which 12 people died (in France). There is no law at present but that does not mean they haven't tried. A law was put to the senate in 2008 but is still "on ice" for the simple reason that CO detectors as available for households were considered unreliable.

As part of the new campaign for a new law, research has found that only one in seven CO detectors currently on the market are accurate, and can be considered trustworthy.

They recommend avoiding the low priced ones and making sure that they are marked CE, for European standards.

[tjg1677]

Best type to fit are the ones which give a digital readout indicating CO content in the air as ppm  ( parts per million ).

When i owned my narrowboat, I was chairman of the club I belonged to, we had caretakers living in a flat above the clubhouse, which was heated by a solid fuel boiler. A CO alarm was fitted in the cellar where the boiler was situated and another in the flat. The alarms used to sound if the wind was in a certain direction and to investigate this further I had extra alarms fitted with a digital readout. One night i had a phone call from the caretakers that all alarms were sounding and reading high. To cut a long story short it transpired that when the boiler was installed thirty odd years ago, there was no flue liner fitted, the flue pipe from the boiler just being piped to the existing chimney system. In a building that is 200 years old, the brickwork in the chimney breasts had become porous and in certain conditions were leaking CO into the building..

A very sobering thought because as chairman I was legally responsible for the caretakers welfare and it brought it home sharply what the consequences could have been.

Moral of the story, don't dismiss the use of these units, they do save lives!!

Trev