Big Changes Ahead

[LondonRascal]

Got the Survey Reports scanned for some light reading:

Fair Trader

Fair Trader Survey Report.pdf

Lily Jean

Lily Jean Survey Report.PDF

[BrundallNavy]

Robin,

We did turbine washes all the time on helicopters I worked on it was part of the routine maintenance..   When I had a survey done on Nipper the inspector condemned the engine because it had some corrosion, it ran and started fine and all that was needed was a rub down with a wire brush and a lick of paint.

He also highlighted that the toilet sea cock was not accessible without breaking your arm in two, I rectified this by replacing the heads floor and moving the access hatch to allow easy reach.  Most surveyors will always air on the side of caution and you need to look for yourself to see if things are actually as bad as he reported.

Doug.

[LondonRascal]

I agree Doug, in fact I would go as far to say that the Surveyor is as good as a chap sat on a fence who says there is a problem, but when asked how bad simply replies "I'd not like to say". They will go for the cautious approach every time, I guess that is to be expected.

I just imagine in this case I am going to find some small panel, and down some dark hole with a torch you see the top of the valve and nobody has been able to get to it since the boat was constructed. Time will tell, I doubt will be able to film anything but will take photos when I go along and naturally share here :)

[tjg1677]

Rob, whete is the LJ laying as that looks a lot like hull marina to me. I am just across the water in grimsby, not jumping in to volunteer but if she is in Hull and you need a second pair of eyes, feel free to shout and if available will gladly help.

Suspect very strongly that rust streaks are from the portlight fixings, would be very surprised if the frames were the culprit. Re surveyors report, it is always difficult to comment on them until you have seen said vessel and married the the two up but that does seem quite a fair report  to me.  Reserving judgement on the seacocks but the rudder bearings would be my main concern. That can be an expensive job and it could be a fair assumption that they are worn as the boat has auto helm, these units do tend to wear out bearings quicker than a manual helm as they input more movements than a human if the damper settings are left at minimum. That said it could be (depending on rudder bearing and gland type ) be just a simple case of needing some grease packing into them.

Good luckwith the quest

[ZimbiIV]

Have seen this one Robin?

http://www.red-ensign.com/boats/trader-445/

paul

[Guest]

Very Interesting thread. I have a few golden rules for boat ownership that have served me well, they allow me to sleep easy at night, enjoy the ownership experience, and never regret the purchase whatever transpires.

1/ buy outright with no borrowing, 2/ Be able to cover the worst uninsured scenario (usually terminal engine failure) without undue financial stress, 3/Know that the boat will sell relatively quickly if required. 4/ Be a boat that makes you happy every time you see it

For us this time following those rules, we ended up with a tidy well looked after Safari 25, we could have gone 2 or even 3x the initial purchase price and still covered point 4, but compromised one or more of the others.

I can see the appeal of the Trader, its a proper little ship, and as you plan this to be a long term purchase you can use the fact its a hard to sell boat to your advantage, go in low and hard, you might be surprised just how much you can reduce the price by. I have personally know of 2 large craft in good condition and priced 'correctly' that eventually went for 75% & 70% of initial asking, which isn't going to happen every time but you never know.

 

 

[LondonRascal]

Trev:  She is lying in Plymouth now. My concern is the bearings above all, perhaps also because currently I don't know how easy they are to get to but from the photos of where her rudders are, they seem right back partially under the bathing platform. Under the aft double is the main water tank so you bet the linkages and auto-helm driver unit will be down behind the damn tank. I might need to employ a skinnier person than me lol

Paul: The Trader you linked to is decent, but did you read it has 'flush mounted parking sensors' in the swim  platform, and LED outside lights. I'd just need to add a back up beeper to complete the set up. Mind you for a 1999 she is good value but seems a little 'squished' internally trying to have all the elements as the larger 535 but pushed together.

40Somthing: I agree and am fortunate that I won't be needing to go getting into borrowing but I'd like to think that the boat won't suffer an engine blowup. I think if I wanted to get something that might be easier to sell on I'd get a Broom, a Princess or a Beneteau. The below was the opening line of the Brokers email to me which said a lot and made me think right off the bat as  buyer I am very much in the driving seat:

"Thank you for your enquiry - Unfortunately as with many Traders since the demise of Tarquin Boat Company and the general collapse in the boat market, many boats have been on the market for an average of 3-5 years and this is no exception."

 

[tjg1677]

Rob,

Given that she is twin rudder, auto helmed and fully hydraulic, i would be very very very surprised indeed if thete are no proper access hatches, possibly even one per rudder.

Havent read the full report as yet  as icant get it to open on my phone but once i have read it properly and if it tells me a bit more about the rudders, i will get back to you.

Cheers

Trev

[grendel]

the way I see it, if the rudder bearings were able to be inspected, they must have been more easily accessed than those sea cocks, so shouldnt be too much of an issue.

[tjg1677]

OK Rob,

have managed to get into the survey report now. Doesnt really tell you a lot other than that there is apparently " play " in both rudder bearings, which is unfortunately rather inconclusive.

Play is a fairly unquantifiable definition. If the stocks are rattling around in their bearings then, yes, there may be a bit of a problem.

What the report omits to elaborate on is a. the amount of play  and b. whether it is longitudal or radial. a very small amount of radial play is acceptable in rudder stocks providing that the stuffing boxes do not leak thus allowing water inboard, there is no judder or chatter in the bearings whilst under way and there is no excess longitudal play.

This is a classic case of see for yourself and get a second expert opinion on the condition of the rudder stocks and bearings, you may be pleasantly surprised and find that there is no real issue. As I mentioned before, there should be threaded greasers ( the brass T handle type that you turn daily )  feeding lubricant to the bearings and if these have not been turned for a while, it could cause apparent play.

If however the stocks are wobbling about in the bearings, then yes you do have a potentially quite expensive problem as the rudder linkages will have to be disconnected, the rudder pintle skegs dropped ( if fitted ) , the rudders dropped and the stocks cleaned and possibly machined and new bushes machined up and fitted. Bushes can be a variety of material ranging from bronze to a material called polypenko, this is a plastic composite common enough on small ships and barges but I am unsure if it would be used on a small boat the size of this one.

ahhh did I just mention pintle skegs????  these are lower bearings fitted at the very foot of the rudder and thus hold everything inline. they tend to be fitted to larger vessels with bigger heavier rudders, so there is a fair chance she may not have them and will consequently make the whole job easier..................... Actually , Ignore that , have just looked at the pics and she does not have them. She does have quite dainty rudders though when you compare them to the size of the props, almost disproportianate.

So, in conclusion, all we can do at this stage is speculate. It may be something, it may be nothing but all will be revealed when you go and see for yourself. good luck and hope all goes well mate.

cheers

trev

[LondonRascal]

Just wanted to update on things so far as this goes:

On Tuesday I traveled down to view the boat that I have almost decided is the one for me . I had stayed overnight and this meant I arrived bright and early before the Broker - who had also traveled a fair way himself - and this meant that the boat was in a 'real' condition - no cleaning up things, no last minute rubbing away of those oil drips etc.  She has some cosmetic issues externally which a good wash down and polish would deal with  a lot of these.

She is an impressive craft, having a large bathing platform and steps on the port side up to what I can only describe as the 'sun deck'. This is an enormous area that can be complete enclosed with fold down vinyl screens, but in the warmer weather is open at all sides. There is a BBQ, sink and extra fridge here and a large 'L' shape seat and solid Teak table. The area is covered with Teak decking which (like all the decks) thankfully have not been aggressively cleaned and worn and remain smooth with the caulking flush with the Teak strips.

From here there is a small ladder to the fly bridge, I'd say there is easily seating for 5 people and the helm. Sadly there is water ingress behind one of the screens which I think is used for the autohelm. There is also a switch that is broken which I think is for the trim tabs, but there is a further trim tab control switch which I think would be the replacement and the original was left in situ. Since I plan to have these systems updated anyway it is not a big problem, an their are only repeaters for the main controls in the lower helm.

Coming inside she really is something special. I got the feeling of real serenity, very quiet and cost. Lots of beautiful wood with perfect joinery on show, but the real star was the cabins - the grain of the wood hand matched to follow from door to door, soft curves, perfect fit. Granite sinks surrounds in the head, solid teak flooring and shower tray keep reminding yo this is a proper 'little ship'. Any fibre glass is kept to the bare minimum on show and only where absolutely needed.

The wardrobes are lined with Cedar to help stop moths making their home and controlling moisture, the cabin sole is not a laminate of Holly & Teak we may be used to on high end hire boats, but the real deal - solid with a beautiful rich luster. No damp smell, no mildew anywhere and every panel that was lifted showed a dry interior with no water marks or damp.

The galley is like a modern apartment - built in microwave, fridge freezer, washer dryer and even a dishwasher. Electric fan assisted oven and ceramic hob mean there is no gas to worry about. From here is the master suite with island double and ensuite. Masses of drawers and hanging space, and like ever cabin she has reverse cycle air conditioning which will cool and heat.

But what I had not seen in any photo was the engines - having seen several of these boats in Brokers listings the engine bay always seems to suffer rather a lot from corrosion - which would suggest a lot of moisture and salt is making its way in, but this craft had a newer baffle system for the engine bay - and the entire space was spotless. No visible signs of any water leaks, oil leaks, no tell tale yellowing of the paint on the engine which could indicate an overheat. The Engines each producing a little over 500HP looked in great condition and benefited from recent servicing 3 months previous and new exhaust pipes (port side one had suffered some issues) and along with the anti-fouling and other work it was estimated £15,000 had been spent to bring her to the condition she is in now.

The problem I am have is finding any real issues I can haggle on price over - she is already keenly priced compared to others of her year but I was told the seller is 'keen to do a deal' so I am intending on letting them stew just a few more days and then coming up with an offer and seeing where we go. Other good points is the mooring is transferable for no fee to me and is paid up until next March which takes the pressure of needing to get her up to Norfolk and one can have some works undertaken where is now, which having made some esquires is surprisingly competitive compared as to hourly rates compared to the Broads.

 

[VetChugger]

Nay Robin, this is not at all fair! Where are the pictures????

[ExSurveyor]

Hi Robin,  does all this domestic equipment run off the shore power or onboard systems. 

The reason I ask is most marinas have a 16amp limit meaning a fan heater and kettle are your limit.

Sounds a great boat.

[dnks34]

Ive read the 1st survey report and just making an observation has that surveyors report told you anything you wouldnt have seen with your own eyes?  

The blistering pictured on the hull also looks much worse than my 1990s broads cruiser.

[LondonRascal]

I have to be a tad careful of giving too much details in public as to the boat, name and location but all will be reveled in due course.

The boat that I am looking at and that I am most keen on has not got any blistering problems, (well it has one 14mm single blister) and the one that I had previously liked the look of and had major blistering, was the result of Copper Coat that had been badly applied (by a 'professional') and subsequently had many air pockets which appear as blisters. However it's hull had a higher than usual moisture reading and oddly more on the Port side.

I am not too worried about the how many amps the various items may consume because of heating as I am going to have a diesel fired 'wet' boiler system installed which I plan on getting from JPC Direct and they can help advise what size of system I would need. This will also provide hot water.

I am not sure if 32Amp supply is something that could exist where I plan to moor, but it won't matter too much because I am stripping the current batteries out and would be putting in over 10Kwh of Lithium cells in the boat, which will be able to run the electric cooking for a Sunday dinner let alone an evening meal and will re-charge in to 90% in an hour and to full in 3 hours so it will be these mainly which I will be using for electrical needs. All the lighting needs to be changed to LED as it is hot running, amp draining Halogen at the moment.

 

[ExSurveyor]

10kw of lithium cells,  blimey,  how many batteries is that .

[Guest]

Just now, psychicsurveyor said:

10kw of lithium cells,  blimey,  how many batteries is that .

Forget the amount of batteries the cost must be amazing 

[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, Ricardo said:

Forget the amount of batteries the cost must be amazing 

£10,794.00 to be exact.Drop in, plug and play system custom built here in the UK and will run at 24v.

Now, this video kind of explains why Lithium are better than Lead Acid of AGM once you get past the cost - I know this cursing couple take some patience to view but they do make it simple to 'get':

 

[dnks34]

WOW! and I get miffed at the price of a 110amp leisure battery 

[Polly]

Dreams can come true Robin, way to go! 

[Guest]

I hope it all works out well for you Robin, most importantly though are you planning a forum boat warming party???

[LondonRascal]

Just now, dnks34 said:

WOW! and I get miffed at the price of a 110amp leisure battery 

The real point is your 100Ah Lead Acid battery - let us just round it up and say it cost £100.00 but for that you've got a lot of dead weight, and over an extend period can't use all that 100Ah of capacity, because when you discharge past 50% you begin to cause issues with the battery chemistry and make up - you can do it, but your batteries lifetime is reduced.

So 110Ah actually gives you a regular usable capacity of 55Ah. Now the number of times you can discharge and recharge are relatively small, when you look at the tech specs of batteries  you might get 200 cycles, with high cost good brand this might be 300 cycles. That is not to say after this they just die, but gradually they are getting weaker but most people never really notice this, until they really are very damaged and you can't get the heating to fire without the engine being run, or your lights dim after a couple of hours of use.

With Lithium you can use up to 90% of the batteries capacity, so they are very efficient in covering almost all their charge to energy to use, their re-charge rate is very much faster from 90% discharge to 90% recharge (about an hour) which means less wear on engine/alternator to put back power or less time and money on your mains powered charger before they are on float charge.

But the biggest thing is you can get 5,000 cycles minimum before there begins to be a break down of the capacity. This does not effect most boaters, but if you have a large battery bank running at 24v and have been using high end AGM batteries which cost several hundred pounds, the Lithium replacement system will in many cases last the life of the boat from my point of view the other bonus is you can put a hell of a lot of load on a Lithium cell and it is just fine with it, where as a Lead Acid battery will soon big up the ghost.

Have a look at this video where Lithium, Lead Acid and Gel batteries are compared side by side with the same load to see the difference:

 

[Guest]

Just now, Polly said:

Dreams can come true Robin, way to go! 

All I hope is I dont dream of spend near 11k on battery's  

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

The real point is your 100Ah Lead Acid battery - let us just round it up and say it cost £100.00 but for that you've got a lot of dead weight, and over an extend period can't use all that 100Ah of capacity, because when you discharge past 50% you begin to cause issues with the battery chemistry and make up - you can do it, but your batteries lifetime is reduced.

So 110Ah actually gives you a regular usable capacity of 55Ah. Now the number of times you can discharge and recharge are relatively small, when you look at the tech specs of batteries  you might get 200 cycles, with high cost good brand this might be 300 cycles. That is not to say after this they just die, but gradually they are getting weaker but most people never really notice this, until they really are very damaged and you can't get the heating to fire without the engine being run, or your lights dim after a couple of hours of use.

With Lithium you can use up to 90% of the batteries capacity, so they are very efficient in covering almost all their charge to energy to use, their re-charge rate is very much faster from 90% discharge to 90% recharge (about an hour) which means less wear on engine/alternator to put back power or less time and money on your mains powered charger before they are on float charge.

But the biggest thing is you can get 5,000 cycles minimum before there begins to be a break down of the capacity. This does not effect most boaters, but if you have a large battery bank running at 24v and have been using high end AGM batteries which cost several hundred pounds, the Lithium replacement system will in many cases last the life of the boat from my point of view the other bonus is you can put a hell of a lot of load on a Lithium cell and it is just fine with it, where as a Lead Acid battery will soon big up the ghost.

Have a look at this video where Lithium, Lead Acid and Gel batteries are compared side by side with the same load to see the difference:

 

Sorry to ask but why not have a generator? Good ones especially those running at 1,500 rpm can be almost silent.

[dnks34]

Its clear in the video that Lithium is the better battery the only drawback being the financial one.   But you are looking at it as a liveaboard for yourself so I can see why spending that sort of money on something that will work better for you would make sense.