Big Changes Ahead

[LondonRascal]

Just now, Philosophical said:

Sorry to ask but why not have a generator? Good ones especially those running at 1,500 rpm can be almost silent.

It has a 13.5 KW gen set already running at 1,500RPM. Now I can hear you saying it now 'do you know how much diesel you could buy for £10,000 odd and run that? Lots of litres, lots of hours worth of running too but it does cost in servicing and there is noise/vibrations and others moored about might not like the fumes

But, you know what else? I can't take the gen-set with me if I sell the boat, but I can take the Lithium batteries and put back some old Lead Acid ones so my thinking is a bit longer term.

[Poppy]

On 20/09/2017 at 15:54, donnygeoff said:

yup, I said that to myself, (I didn't call myself Robin though)

So I did

Nothing screams 'I couldn't afford a Porsche' more than a 'Boxter '

[dnks34]

Maybe donnygeoff just likes the Boxter!

I owned an MR2 once, was that because I couldnt afford a Boxter! 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

It has a 13.5 KW gen set already running at 1,500RPM. Now I can hear you saying it now 'do you know how much diesel you could buy for £10,000 odd and run that? Lots of litres, lots of hours worth of running too but it does cost in servicing and there is noise/vibrations and others moored about might not like the fumes

But, you know what else? I can't take the gen-set with me if I sell the boat, but I can take the Lithium batteries and put back some old Lead Acid ones so my thinking is a bit longer term.

Thanks for the reply and I have to admit that I hadn't thought of the "take them with you when you sell idea" and with owning a boat of this type with two large diesel engines I doubt the cost of diesel fuel is at the top of your worry list. 

Whilst not wishing to be contentious, the Cummins/Onan set on my last boat (8 Kw) with the exhaust gas/water separator made little more noise and fumes (unless on very high load) than the erbepacher on my current boat from outside. Also since the I assume that the northern broads will be excluded for you, there will not be so much opportunity to moor in close proximity to a number of other boats where that level of consideration for others is needed and shore power may be available anyway in those cases.

I chose my current boat as it has a gas cooker and oven to reduce my dependence on electricity when away from shore power.

I am being lazy and not googling, but what does this battery set weigh.

Regards,

Phil

[ExSurveyor]

Robin,  are the costs of the lithium batteries likely to fall in the next couple of years making it worth holding on to the existing batteries ( unless they are cream crackered )

[LondonRascal]

Phil,

The battery system weighs 130KG. If you compare the weight of Lead Acid batteries to equal this capacity this is light in comparison.

I have in the past been all for generators, but there increasingly so far as I can see not being the 'go to' method for large electrical power needs. You could have a far smaller generator for example, that only is needed to run to re-charge the battery bank - or supplement it since the Inverter system I am looking at can combine sources of power eg. battery and shore power to give a higher overall current available when needed. 

The only reason the boat has such a large generator is to run all the air conditioning units (4 of them) at the same time and also have reserve for other items. I am keen on air-conditioning, I am not keen on marine air-conditioning because having 4 separate units each needing their own compressor and sea-cock and skin fitting and filter assembly that needs cleaning for the cooling water it just is not efficient.

One could have one central outside condenser unit, hidden in a box with louvered grills to blend in to the boats appearance, and this one unit deal with the four zones (or cabins) on the boat. Being an off the shelf commercial unit it is cheaper to buy and any HVAC engineer can deal with them unlike the marine specific systems. Of course 99.9% of boaters do not want such a box on their boat, or do not have the space to have it s this idea is very much bucking the trend,  but you will find such systems on many Tugs and all the Thames Clippers use these everyday air-conditioners commonly found in shops or businesses on their craft.

Mark,

There is one thing that is for certain, battery technology is going to get smaller, lighter and more efficient and with volume manufacturing cheaper. The thing is how long do you wait before you dive in? The systems I have been looking at are not such that a company has a standard sized battery container and within it the Lithium cells, thus looking like and acting just the same as conventional batteries, but a custom made system in a self contained enclosure that holds all the batteries - then has a on-board monitoring software that can be linked by a network to be monitored not just on the boat but online too. It is this which adds to the overall costs.

If you want a 'drop in replacement' then this sort: http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-100ah-relion-lithium-battery/ would be a good idea to begin. They have the charge protection and balancing hardware built in, and that 100Ah of capacity is equivalent to 172Ah of traditional AGM or Lead Acid. 10 year warranty and 5,000 cycles.

[grendel]

my biggest concern over lithium batteries is the possibility of failure and water ingress, lithium is very reactive to water, and lithium batteries have been known to catch fire (thinks phones laptops and batteries in planes all catching fire.)

[LondonRascal]

I think all batteries dislike water ingress - and there is a lot more sensitive equipment that is equally unhappy with moisture. Something I recently found out is the fact that marine Inverts circuit boards are often bare, no protective coating at all, yet are placed in very damp and often salty environments so I'd be more happy to use some aerosol Conformal Coating to give things a fighting chance of not corroding.

The Lithium batteries for marine use are Lithium Iron Phosphate - when the two layers of the film touch maybe through being punctured unlike those found in phones etc, these will not react and cannot catch on fire, but there is a a trade off. They are heavier and and not as efficient but then they last longer.

[KaptinKev]

I have been following this thread before I was a member and have found it really interesting, so please keep us posted and pictures when convenient.

I work with many other tradesman who use lithium batteries in their tools and so far haven't come across anyone who has had trouble with these batteries, so it would be nice to know if Grendel has had any issues. But I think as long as they are kept cool, you shouldn't have any problems.

Also do you plan to install PV cells?

[dnks34]

15 minutes ago, grendel said:

my biggest concern over lithium batteries is the possibility of failure and water ingress, lithium is very reactive to water, and lithium batteries have been known to catch fire (thinks phones laptops and batteries in planes all catching fire.)

One of the reasons I decided I didnt want to fly on a 787 dreamliner! 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Phil,

The battery system weighs 130KG. If you compare the weight of Lead Acid batteries to equal this capacity this is light in comparison.

I have in the past been all for generators, but there increasingly so far as I can see not being the 'go to' method for large electrical power needs. You could have a far smaller generator for example, that only is needed to run to re-charge the battery bank - or supplement it since the Inverter system I am looking at can combine sources of power eg. battery and shore power to give a higher overall current available when needed. 

The only reason the boat has such a large generator is to run all the air conditioning units (4 of them) at the same time and also have reserve for other items. I am keen on air-conditioning, I am not keen on marine air-conditioning because having 4 separate units each needing their own compressor and sea-cock and skin fitting and filter assembly that needs cleaning for the cooling water it just is not efficient.

One could have one central outside condenser unit, hidden in a box with louvered grills to blend in to the boats appearance, and this one unit deal with the four zones (or cabins) on the boat. Being an off the shelf commercial unit it is cheaper to buy and any HVAC engineer can deal with them unlike the marine specific systems. Of course 99.9% of boaters do not want such a box on their boat, or do not have the space to have it s this idea is very much bucking the trend,  but you will find such systems on many Tugs and all the Thames Clippers use these everyday air-conditioners commonly found in shops or businesses on their craft.

Mark,

There is one thing that is for certain, battery technology is going to get smaller, lighter and more efficient and with volume manufacturing cheaper. The thing is how long do you wait before you dive in? The systems I have been looking at are not such that a company has a standard sized battery container and within it the Lithium cells, thus looking like and acting just the same as conventional batteries, but a custom made system in a self contained enclosure that holds all the batteries - then has a on-board monitoring software that can be linked by a network to be monitored not just on the boat but online too. It is this which adds to the overall costs.

If you want a 'drop in replacement' then this sort: http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-100ah-relion-lithium-battery/ would be a good idea to begin. They have the charge protection and balancing hardware built in, and that 100Ah of capacity is equivalent to 172Ah of traditional AGM or Lead Acid. 10 year warranty and 5,000 cycles.

Robin,

Sadly I am all too familiar with air conditioning having just returned to the UK after 30 years in the sandpit (UAE) My last boat a 46 foot stick and flappy bits boat had a/c's which ran continuously for probably 8 months of the year, for two and a half months each month we used to put "the big cover on" to shield the boat from the searing sun. Yes there were a number of options: run the on board  boat a/c units with their inbuilt fragility for 24/7 use and pay the maintenance with frequent replacement, buy and modify window a/c's to sit above the hatches as a replacement to the on board a/c, or rent/buy dockside a/c's and duct the cold air into the boat. Having discussed this at length (usually over some beer) with other boat owners the best I can offer is that "the jury is still out" as to which is best, the only partial conclusion is that most owners reverted to running the on board a/c's 24/7 and taking the hit on maintenance and frequent replacement. With this this in mind rather than have few "big" a/c's there was a preference to multiple smaller a/c's  so that in the event of a unit failure the boat was still usable and mostly comfortable in the event of a single unit failure. 

My boat which was new at the time did have a fundamental design problem with the a/c; which was some was some commonalty on the switching of the sea water pumps, so if one unit failed the pump would shut down, maybe in sympathy but shutting all other a/c's that shared a water supply from that pump. I had this modified so that each unit could run even with a failed unit sharing the same pump circuit.    

130 Kg is actually quite light certainly lighter than a premium generator, but I guess my question is; when are you going to need this "massive" battery resource, when the generator or shore power is not available or non acceptable? Just trying to save you ten grand which does buy quite a few tank fulls of fuel.

Phil

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

Robin,

Sadly I am all too familiar with air conditioning having just returned to the UK after 30 years in the sandpit (UAE) My last boat a 46 foot stick and flappy bits boat had a/c's which ran continuously for probably 8 months of the year, for two and a half months each month we used to put "the big cover on" to shield the boat from the searing sun. Yes there were a number of options: run the on board  boat a/c units with their inbuilt fragility for 24/7 use and pay the maintenance with frequent replacement, buy and modify window a/c's to sit above the hatches as a replacement to the on board a/c, or rent/buy dockside a/c's and duct the cold air into the boat. Having discussed this at length (usually over some beer) with other boat owners the best I can offer is that "the jury is still out" as to which is best, the only partial conclusion is that most owners reverted to running the on board a/c's 24/7 and taking the hit on maintenance and frequent replacement. With this this in mind rather than have few "big" a/c's there was a preference to multiple smaller a/c's  so that in the event of a unit failure the boat was still usable and mostly comfortable in the event of a single unit failure. 

My boat which was new at the time did have a fundamental design problem with the a/c; which was some was some commonalty on the switching of the sea water pumps, so if one unit failed the pump would shut down, maybe in sympathy but shutting all other a/c's that shared a water supply from that pump. I had this modified so that each unit could run even with a failed unit sharing the same pump circuit.    

130 Kg is actually quite light certainly lighter than a premium generator, but I guess my question is; when are you going to need this "massive" battery resource, when the generator or shore power is not available or non acceptable? Just trying to save you ten grand which does buy quite a few tank fulls of fuel.

Phil

I've just noticed a few typo's in this, which I can't edit ??

Maybe I need to address the root cause and buy some glasses or a bigger screen

 

[donnygeoff]

6 hours ago, Poppy said:

Nothing screams 'I couldn't afford a Porsche' more than a 'Boxter '

I had a few hundred quid spare and wanted a little car as a runabout, I got the list down to 2

merc slk

or Boxster

preferred the shape of the boxster, the handling, engine note when you hit 4000 revs  (and the badge) even though I am not a hairdresser.

Sorry for Fred drift Robin, at least the last pic is in Norfolk

[Siddy]

What's the plan for charging the battery pack when moored with no power available? Still use the gen set? If so I'd use the gen set for peak loads i.e. white goods and still be able to charge the pack at the same time. Which like you say charges to 90% in fast charge then slow charge to top off to 100%

Like the idea of a multi-split system, down side is all your eggs in one basket if it has a fault you'll lose the system, but if the inboat system is staying that's your backup. Do you have a make of the boat a/c system I've not worked on this type and be good to read up on it.

 

[LondonRascal]

Lots of points raised and advice given (lovely) so  settle down it is a long one.

Batteries:

The plan to re-charge the batteries is no different than if they were Lead Acid, the difference is they are lighter, far more energy dense, and re-charge in a very short time compared to Lead Acid (they can also take very high amperage charge rates and not boil like Lead Acid can).

Because they can take charge faster and more efficiently, whatever means you use to re-charge is not used for as long so be it engine, shore based or generator it all is more efficient. As you might be aware, recharging lead acid batteries takes sometimes hours, because while they can accept a good amperage to begin, to avoid damage this reduces to a trickle so that last 10-15 percent is what takes the most time to put back into the cells.

As to needing this battery resource, it is about future proofing and efficiency. I know it is expensive, but Lead Acid in 2017 is very old technology, and it just gives a lot of freedom and choice – what if you only have 16Amp shore connection but need to use 23Amps of load? You can with this set up and the correct inverter and combiner system or say the shore power connection trips, in milliseconds the battery bank takes over with no loss of power and you are simply informed by an alarm that shore power has been cut then you can make a choice – run engine, run generator stay on battery.

Air-Conditioning:

I am a little unusual (no really?) in that I use such at home through the summer so over the years it has become something I have got used to and I would much prefer being inside in the cool than outside in the baking. I am the one who will go into the restaurant to eat in the cool and not on the terrace in the sun with everyone else, and why perhaps Mediterranean holidays has never appealed to me for I think of the heat and that is enough to make me dream of autumn in blighty lol.

Air-Conditioners do not make cold air, they simple move heat from one place to another, and they do this using the refrigerant between it being in a liquid state and that of a gas. When it is a gas this ‘absorbs’ heat from the room and causes the evaporator (think of something resembling a car radiator) to get cold as the gas passes through the system to the condenser coil (second radiator) it is transferred to a liquid – this sudden change releases the heat which is dispersed outside through a fan – this is the box you see outside or why your car when the air conditioner is running cooling fans will run.

On boats that have air-conditioning fitted have pretty compact units that are hidden somewhere behind a bulkhead, under a berth or even grouped together in the engine room.  Such systems have to be small because most boats are not blessed with the space to have much larger units, and the units have to cover a wide range of applications/boats.  This inherently causes issues where the compressor, electronics that control the unit and the condenser coils are all wrapped together in one tight space – vibration, heat and a salt laden moist air all conspire to mean these hard working units have a hard life.

Here is an example of a typical marine air-con unit:

Usually a refrigerant line heads off from the unit to the air handler – based in the cabin:

This is where the ‘evaporator’ is and the part that gets cold. A fan then pulls air through this and cools the cabin. These systems often can work ‘backwards’ whereby they heat – and since water usually is warmer than air temperature and how the refrigerant transfers from liquid to gas works in reverse, heat can be ‘captured’ from the surrounding water and built up to quite high levels. They do this rather efficiently, and the result is the evaporator inside the cabin rather than getting cold gets warm – it reverse cycles so to speak, it becomes the condenser and you have your heating.

Unlike shore based or vehicular based air conditioning systems which use the surrounding air drawn over the condenser coil (the part that gets hot) to remove waste heat from the refrigerant, marine based systems use water.  Water is a better more dense medium to remove heat from something, but the water that is being passed through the unit (much the same as the heat exchanger on any marine engine) is more often than not salt water. Salt water getting rather warm, increases the scaling and marine growth so the filters need to be checked and cleaned in places like the Med weekly or more, and the pipe work over time can fur and clog and narrow. You also have extra sea cocks to worry about but then come wintertime you have more to worry about freezing up as you then have to drain the raw water side of the system to stop the raw water in the system freezing up and causing costly damage.

Now I used to think that this all was worthwhile since there for boats, smaller efficient systems and would not need much power. How foolish of me, they need as much power as any other air-conditioning which is why you need a generator, or shore power to have them run and then you begin to see the cost of the systems – they are thousands of pounds.

Thing is, if you look at commercial office air conditioning systems, they are so much cheaper, far more efficient, and easier to maintain because most Engineers dealing with such are used to these systems whereas may not know the ins and outs of an Eberspacher based marine system. So my idea is to bring the cheaper, off the shelf commercial system to a boat.

This means I would need to find the space for one of these:

This is not exactly what most leisure boast owners want to have on show and often would not have the space, but while it is common practice on the canals and increasingly on the Broads with people living on boats to have sold fuel stoves and an associate flue, this unit is my equivalent.

Now, don’t get me wrong I have not got a clue if this would be workable but I have a feeling it would. My idea, is to use the existing refrigerant lines to the existing air handlers (evaporators) in the boat and have the outside condenser unit take over from the 4 units spaced about the boat currently. One unit running is more efficient than 4, and with a variable speed inverter based compressor (nothing to do with inverters we are used to on boats) it means for every 1Kw of energy you put in you get more out in energy produced (heat) since it is the process from gas to liquid which causes the temperature difference not electrical input like a fan heater element. Therefore it is why ‘air source heat pumps’ are getting traction and can attract a subsidy from the government as it is seen as very efferent (though not as good as ground source heat pumps).

Now, it may be that my idea is not workable – or that it is in part, where I would need to run new lines but it is worth looking into I say, and also these units cost far less to purchase to begin and sourcing parts too – also it is just one unit to worry about, everything else is basically small DC fans and ‘plumbing’.

[JamesLV]

Robin, I have a friend who does domestic and commercial hvac systems, he’s based in Redhill, he also is a boaty (albeit a bit smaller than the scale you’re looking at) I can put you in touch with him if you wish, I’m sure he could offer some advice on your plans?

[LondonRascal]

Thanks James, I will remember this, but first I need to get the boat - small steps then the bigger ones :)

[JamesLV]

3 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Thanks James, I will remember this, but first I need to get the boat - small steps then the bigger ones :)

A valid point!

[Jonathan]

Robin,

I'm not a heating/cooling engineer so someone else may be able to explain this much more eloquently than I can, but there are two disadvantages to using the "office" system you suggest (both points below assume you are cooling the cabin, but the same is true when heating with a heat-pump).

Firstly: The specific heat capacity of air is much less than water.  This means that you have to shift a much greater volume of air through your "hot" radiator to cool it than you would with water.  That in turn means that the radiator and fan need to be bigger, noisier and power-hungry.

Secondly:  The air temperature outside the cabin (in Summer) is likely to be quite warm, whereas the water will be a lot cooler.  The air-conditioning unit has to work much harder when there is not much temperature difference between the "inside" and "outside" radiators.  It is far more efficient (and therefore less power-hungry) to transfer "cold" from a cold radiator to a hot cabin and many "air-conditioning" systems only guarantee to reduce the temperature by a specified number of degrees for this reason (think of those 12V electric cool boxes).  As you said, this is why the ground-based heat pumps are preferred to the "air source" ones. 

I don't want to sound too negative.  I'm sure your ideas will work; I'm just adding a few more things for you to worry about (as if you don't already have enough with this project). 

Keep us up-to-date!

[LondonRascal]

Jonathan, you make some good points - so I will have a look into these, but off the top of my head my understanding is that almost all air-conditioner systems made and installed operate on a simple ‘on’ or ‘off’ approach.  I will cover newer innovations with variable speed compressors later.

When on they produce their maximum efficiency that is to say if they are rated at 16,000 BTU they will run at this regardless, and it is the thermostat that will cut the unit in or out (on or off) and cycling a unit reduces life especially the compressor start Capacitor. Doing this is less efficient so you don’t want a unit too large for the given space that will constantly have to cycle off and on, neither do you want one too small that it cannot provide sufficient cooling capacity and runs all the time.  It is a bit of an art since you have to take in to account the thermal efficiently of the area you are cooling, sunlight, time of day etc and year so your unit has the capacity to cool to a comfortable degree even on a hot mid-August day.

What this means is on a warm day, lets us say 23c the air-conditioner will work just as hard as on a hot day say 30c and consume the same amount of power. In very hot climates, outdoor condenser systems may have water spray cooling to aid air cooling, but generally air cooling the unit is good to about 38c which thankfully we do not see in the UK and so it is only in very large units in high-rises you might see these sort of set up.

In short when you look at power consumption of the marine units (with the same BTU output) and using water as cooling they are not much more efficient than a standard air cooled commercial system, but are preferred overall in the marine environment due to their compact size. Also most commercial units outdoor condenser coils are aluminum, get salt spray on this and they will fall apart - one therefore must buy one which has an epoxy coating over to prevent this for as long as possible. You can tell a unit has such because the coil will have a light green or blue hue to the metal elements.

I would get a variable speed compressor unit - this is a relatively new to market innovation that instead of just relying on a thermostat to cycle the unit on or off, actually reduces or increases the speed the compressor runs at (and thus the cooling capacity of the unit) based on load and temperature. On a warm day where it may not need full cooling capacity it would run slower and use less power, on a hot day it would ramp up and produce more cooling capacity.

The outside noise of these units is very quiet too – with the large diameter high pitched fan and sound insulated compressor motor, you are looking at a murmur at about 5 metres the main noise being the air flow over the coil. This is likely less annoying to people than running water constantly coming out the hull from the marine systems, which may also cause other marine owners to think your bilge pumps are running continuously when actually you are just running your air-conditioning.

When you mention about cool-boxes this is a not refrigeration in the same sense as a compressor driven system with a refrigerant gas, but actually uses a semi-conductor - more often known as a Peltier. It is a small heat pump, or thermoelectric cooler. It can be used either for heating or for cooling, runs on DC and to switch between cooling or heating you simply change the polarity. They are cheap, can be bought on Amazon and worth playing with - I experimented with these, but their high DC amperage and low efficiency (you need a massive heat sink on the hot side) meant my idea for air cooling a small cabin fell flat. They do have a maximum cooling point to at a given temperature but the more heat you can get away from their ‘hot side’ the colder the cool side will get enough to form ice crystals actually.

The main thrust of all this is it is very much, as ever with me 'outside the box' Sure you get some folk using small portable air-conditioners on boats, or weird home brew set ups with bags of ice and computer fans, but you do not often see the sort of set up I am talking about, and there could well be a good reason for this in so far as it is not workable.  But, I recon the main reason is lack of space and not wanting to have a outside condenser unit spoil the lines of their lovely craft (and perhaps reduce it's value) so if I was to do this, I would consider having the outdoor part covered in a GRP enclosure with louvers, so aesthetically you would not think 'office air-con' when you saw it.

 

[Jonathan]

Robin,

Clearly, you have researched the subject in some depth.  All I am saying is that the greater the temperature difference between the "inside" and "outside", the less work the unit has to do.  Some will do so by varying pump speed, others by switching on and off.  But when it is hot outside they will need to either run faster or be "on" more than "off".  With a cold (water) source the pump can run slower or be "off" for more time between "on" cycles.

The Peltier systems were perhaps a misdirection on my part.  I was making the point that they say that they can reduce (on increase) the temperature inside the box by "X" degrees, so going flat-out they can only achive a specified temperature difference, not to an absolute value.  The same is true with car "aircon", where the people who recharge the refrigerant only advertise that they can improve the cooling by a certain number of degrees below ambient outside temperature.

With any refrigeration (or heat-pump) system you are putting energy "in" (usually via a pump), to move heat from one radiator to another.  The job is easier, so the pump has to work less hard or less often, if the temperature difference between the radiators is greater (taking heat from the hot one and dumping it in the cold one).

Anyway, don't let me drag you down into these details.  It's your boat (or will be?) so just enjoy it and do what you prefer, as I said last time, I'm sure either option will work satisfactorily.

Good luck with the purchase (and research of the other thousand and one other things that I know you are looking at for it).

 

[LondonRascal]

19 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Anyway, don't let me drag you down into these details.

No, please do because then I get inspired to read up more and learn . Talking of learning, I have just had delivered today this:

Link to buy just do as I do, close your eyes and hit the add to basket button because it is a £60.00 but blimey it is about 3" thick (women's judgment may vary) of step by step instructions from everything mechanical and electrical on a boat. While I was spending small fortunes on paper I also got the below:

 Reeds Nautical Almanac which is equally hefty but essential literature on any sea boat.

[KaptinKev]

All this talk about air conditioning reminded me of many of a comment said about this in vehicles and possibly boats, "Open the friggin window".

[Siddy]

"Open the window" is the fastest way to move air so pushing 'flushing' air works if it's cooler outside. Your right with varible heat pump condenser, These work on a screw compressor ramping up as required & switching the 4 way valve (sending the gas the other way) to produce heating. Noise wise are very quite we have units like your picture to large screw compressors running our chilled water systems.

Think it would be a new install as new a/c unit are taking via the pcbs sending various temp and pressure signals between them. Years ago there used to be a domestic size system where the evap was mounted remotely and ducted into rooms just like the warm heating on boats. I'm out with our A/c company this week for dinner so will ask what options he has in his design head.

Project one - boat purchase.

Project two - try put projects 3 to 99 in order of works lol.

 

[FairTmiddlin]

1 hour ago, Siddy said:

 try put projects 3 to 99 in order of works lol.

I feel another B' A' type list coming.

Robin which ever way you decide to jump there is only one person taking that leap

go with whatever makes you happy you have to live on it