Health And Safety

[Andrewcook]

Hi all I just would like to add this bit of comments being made about Health and Safety. I was on a Boat Moored up inside this Boat Yard waiting for a Crew member to join me as this Hired Boat Hit my Hired Craft Twice and Failed to Stop to which is a River Bye Law my I add to do so I got the Name of the Boat and reported to the Hired Boat Yard concerned  as this Boat caused to Injured my Back and ruined my Weeks Holiday as I had to get it sorted out from my GP to sort out my Back problem . The Solicitor I got says this is a very Long Windy road to Bring theses People involved including the Boat Yard to court may I add so this had to be dropped with very good advice from my Solicitor I got. 

Yours  Andrew

[Wussername]

I feel that mandatory qualifications for boat hirers would be difficult if not impossible to implement.

However I do believe that an important step forward and one which would be relatively easy to implement is for the trial run driver/instructor to have a recognised qualification, a mandatory qualification. One which not only recognises his ability to handle a boat but is knowledgeable about the broads in general both North and South and the different conditions which may be experienced.

 Together with the qualification there must also include the ability to teach and instruct this knowledge. So in simple terms the instructor will be able to “walk the walk and talk the talk”

All instruction from whatever boat yard should conform to a certain established format, therefore this would ensure, in the fullness of time, that the majority of helmsman would have the same basic knowledge and understanding or at least would be aware of what is expected.

Finally, no exam required but each holiday maker who receives formal instruction would have a log book, a record dated and signed by the boat yard on each holiday which would give at least an indication of experience.  

Andrew

[marshman]

I think you have to rely on Clive's explanation which was that it was done to primarily to bring it into line with Hoseasons - I do not think there was any event in particular that brought it about as I believe everyone would have heard about it.

It would be difficult to impose  the professional qualification bit at this stage - but you are likely, probably , see increasing pressure to see an evidenced handover or at least some record that it has been done - but even that is flawed as you cannot make them listen!!

But if you yourself had personal accident insurance then you could claim on that - does normal Travel Insurance cover that sort of problem? Everyone going on holiday, even the Broads should be well advised to cover themselves - attempting to sue the yard would be a waste of everyones time.

John - I suppose RYA level 2 is not that expensive - depends if you are a banker or not!! And its a two day course nowadays - that too has been tightened up and now probably about £250 - a non starter methinks!!

[JohnK]

John - I suppose RYA level 2 is not that expensive - depends if you are a banker or not!! And its a two day course nowadays - that too has been tightened up and now probably about £250 - a non starter methinks!!

Sorry, my mistake, it was a lot less than that when I did it and two days to do RYA 1&2 and SBD2
On the other hand, more people doing it would likely drive the price back down wouldn’t it?

[Guest]

The majority of incidents where hospital treatment was required continue to be attributed to embarkation and disembarkation with an increase in numbers in comparison with the previous year

This being the case in order to reduce the majority of incidents and hospital treatment, training/advice would have be given on how to get on and off the boat, I also see a link here to the solo and single over 18 policy since if that 1 persons "goes in" the consequences could be serious. .

[JohnK]

The Solicitor I got says this is a very Long Windy road to Bring theses People involved including the Boat Yard to court may I add so this had to be dropped with very good advice from my Solicitor I got. 

To be brutally honest I’m glad you couldn’t sue the boatyard.
I do agree it’s a shame you couldn’t hold the hirer to account though.

[Guest]

To me I can't really understand why its age related , since when does anyone suddenly become responsible at the age of 18 , there are plenty irresponsible folk out boating all over the UK not just in Norfolk that are much older , its nuts to think that someone between 18 and 21 has to prove their age in a pub and they may not drive a passport is accepted as proof , and yet on a boat they are considered responsible at 18 despite that the boat may well way several tons and capable of injury to others , and yet your highly experienced hirer is not allowed to take his child on holiday simply because he's now divorced and the child is 17 .

In my mind there's far more to this than meets the eye , company's normally avoid damaging themselves and their reputation especially by alienating individuals   if this a  booking agent thing why haven't other yards under the same booking argent followed the same path ?  .

Either way its wrong to alienate people on age grounds , there are laws to protect folk later in life from discrimination by age I'm just not sure they work at the other end of the spectrum .

All in all a very big can of worm has clearly been opened .

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

To me I can't really understand why its age related , since when does anyone suddenly become responsible at the age of 18 , there are plenty irresponsible folk out boating all over the UK not just in Norfolk that are much older , its nuts to think that someone between 18 and 21 has to prove their age in a pub and they may not drive a passport is accepted as proof , and yet on a boat they are considered responsible at 18 despite that the boat may well way several tons and capable of injury to others , and yet your highly experienced hirer is not allowed to take his child on holiday simply because he's now divorced and the child is 17 .

In my mind there's far more to this than meets the eye , company's normally avoid damaging themselves and their reputation especially by alienating individuals   if this a  booking agent thing why haven't other yards under the same booking argent followed the same path ?  .

Either way its wrong to alienate people on age grounds , there are laws to protect folk later in life from discrimination by age I'm just not sure they work at the other end of the spectrum .

All in all a very big can of worm has clearly been opened .

 

I think it is a compliance issue: Is there more than one "adult" over the age of 18 on board? Tick yes  then no problem, tick No, then hire not allowed and no individual can be held responsible or accountable for that decision. 

[JohnK]

To me I can't really understand why its age related ,
 

Doesn’t there have to be a cut off?
If a yard said anyone from 2 years old could hire that would be ridiculous wouldn’t it?
Equally if they said you have to be 45 that would be ridiculous.
18 seems like a reasonable number doesn’t it? Ok, some under 18 are responsible people and some over clearly aren’t but it’s an ok guide isn’t it?
I was an idiot until well into my twenties (some would argue I still am) but a lot of people I know were fairly sensible from mid teens.

[vanessan]

As marshman has said, Clive Richardson has maintained that the move is to bring things in line with Hoseason’s booking conditions. In that case we maybe should expect the following boatyards to follow suit in due course: Bridgecraft, Brooms, Sandersons, Barnes, Summercraft and Faircraft. 

It is a sad thing that everything we do these days can be subject to litigation. I know a couple of folk who would jump on the bandwagon as quick as they could if they saw an opportunity. Some actually go out actively looking for such opportunities. I have every sympathy for anyone injured in an accident, particularly if it was not their fault, and there is certainly a place for warranted lawsuits. Having had someone run into the back of our car a few years ago, I was astounded at the number of telephone calls we got trying to make us claim for injury where there was none. 14 on one day alone and the calls went on for 2 years!! It is this sort of ambulance chasing that should be stamped on.

Back to the thread. From hirers I have spoken to and things I have read, it does seem to me that in a lot of cases better trial runs should be given. Whether the ‘instructors’ should have qualifications or not I don’t have a particular view on  but hirers should not be released until both they and the instructor are confident all is well. How you standardise that across the industry I don’t know. Sadly solo helms and single parents are perhaps just the first entities to suffer, others may follow.

 

[Simon]

Last time I hired on the broads was once 3 years ago and once 4 years ago, both with Richardsons and both times just myself and two children both at the time under 18. I did choose a boat I knew I could manage solo.

As said I doubt Richardsons would chose to stop solo hires lightly, could be pressure from Hoseasons as a volume supplier of bookings. 

[MauriceMynah]

Several things come to my mind reading this thread, not least of all, If I want to tell Clive how to run his business, I should buy a hire fleet and show him by example, else leave him to run his yard as he sees best.

Ricardo, I agree 100% that 18 in no way reflects the adulthood of the person. taking myself as an example, even 63 is questionable.

Which is more use as crew, a willing and fit teenager or an arthritic drunk 63 year old. (keep your answers to yourselves)

[Vaughan]

Are skipper's licences practical for hire boats?

In other countries such as Germany, Switzerland and France, you cannot drive a boat on inland waterways without a skipper's permit. This means that in Germany and Switzerland you cannot hire a boat without a licence. Just like a car!

In France they have the "Permis Fluvial" for inland waterways and the "Permis Mer" for coastal work.

When hiring boats, the hire bases are regarded by the authorities as training centres and all trial run instructors must hold the full Permis Fluvial. The hirer is issued with a "Permis de Plaisance" which is valid for the dates of the holiday, is signed by the base manager and the hirer and states that he has received instruction and is capable of handling the boat. This is kept on board in case of inspection and we make it up into a nice document on thick card, which can be taken home afterwards as a souvenir of the holiday, to pin up in your downstairs toilet.

So it makes no difference whatever to the trial run itself or the actual experience of the hirer but the French are happy, since there is a piece of paper with an official stamp on it. It also means that if the hirers do something stupid on their holiday, the blame is clearly on them! Just as important, we don't lose bookings as a result of this paperwork.

Could there be a similar system on the Broads?

I think it would have to apply nationally, not just locally and I don't think it would make any actual difference in practice. It might keep the ambulance chasers at bay though, since it would more clearly define the situation. The hirers (the charterers) really are responsible for the boat, and for their own actions.

There is no question of making an RYA course obligatory before hiring a boat, because in that case, there would be no more hire yards in business.

 

[vanessan]

29 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Several things come to my mind reading this thread, not least of all, If I want to tell Clive how to run his business, I should buy a hire fleet and show him by example, else leave him to run his yard as he sees best.

Ricardo, I agree 100% that 18 in no way reflects the adulthood of the person. taking myself as an example, even 63 is questionable.

Which is more use as crew, a willing and fit teenager or an arthritic drunk 63 year old. (keep your answers to yourselves)

I don’t think anyone has tried to tell Clive how to run his business, after all he has one of the most successful hire boat businesses on the Broads! It’s all been an exchange of views on the recent changes.

With regard to age, Ricardo is absolutely right to say that people don’t suddenly become responsible on reaching 18. There’s  that saying - growing older is obligatory, growing up is not. 

[vanessan]

By the way, it probably needs the experience of an arthritic drunk 63 year old to guide the willing and fit teenager!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, vanessan said:

By the way, it probably needs the experience of an arthritic drunk 63 year old to guide the willing and fit teenager!

Youth, completely wasted on the young.

[Vaughan]

43 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Back to the thread. From hirers I have spoken to and things I have read, it does seem to me that in a lot of cases better trial runs should be given. Whether the ‘instructors’ should have qualifications or not I don’t have a particular view on  but hirers should not be released until both they and the instructor are confident all is well. How you standardise that across the industry I don’t know.

On the Broads, at the end of the trial run, the hirer signs a paper to say he is happy with the boat and with the instruction he has received. If he is not happy he should say so, and quite a few do.

The fact remains that, no matter how good the instructor, it is useless if the hirers are not prepared to listen.

By the way, excuse me if I keep saying "he" - it is just a figure of speech!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

On the Broads, at the end of the trial run, the hirer signs a paper to say he is happy with the boat and with the instruction he has received. If he is not happy he should say so, and quite a few do.

The fact remains that, no matter how good the instructor, it is useless if the hirers are not prepared to listen.

By the way, excuse me if I keep saying "he" - it is just a figure of speech!

I'm looking for a Saturday job to supplement my paper round. And I'm a fully paid up and qualified member of "The Old Gits Club".

[JanetAnne]

I am one of the lucky ones who grew up amongst the hire fleets in the 70's. At the end of each season I got to take a couple of mates for a week on one of the boats. I usually managed to beg, borrow or steal Emerald (Newson Boats if you want to look it up) and am sat here now realising my first week away we were all age 15! The following year was Topaz and then Emerald again in 1980.

We even left our bikes in the customers car park. 

[Vaughan]

17 hours ago, Vaughan said:

There is no question of making an RYA course obligatory before hiring a boat, because in that case, there would be no more hire yards in business.

I forgot to mention that this is why there are no hire yards in Switzerland or Germany. So the Germans and the Swiss all come and hire their boats in France and very good customers they are too!

[vanessan]

4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I forgot to mention that this is why there are no hire yards in Switzerland or Germany. So the Germans and the Swiss all come and hire their boats in France and very good customers they are too!

I think we get quite a number of Germans hiring on the Broads, I have certainly come across a few. Those I have seen have excellent boat handling skills too. 

[HEM]

5 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I forgot to mention that this is why there are no hire yards in Switzerland or Germany.

This is not entirely true.

You can hire boats "to live on" on the Mecklenburger Seenplatte which is a network of lakes in Northern former East Germany.

Here is one example of a boatyard (found at ramdom via Google).  As the webpage states, no boating license is required.

I / we have not been there although it is a possibility.
Well not quite - some years ago I joined my club's Summer Camp at Rechlin-Lärz airfield (was the German equivalent of Farnborough ages ago) & I have some digital photos somewhere of us flying over the lakes.

 

 

[Vaughan]

Here again we see the pitfalls  of trying to make a valid contribution to an internet forum discussion.

I hope my post is appreciated in  the overall context of boat hiring, and its potential risks, as I have seen them in over 25 years operating in Western Europe. Admittedly not in Switzerland!

 

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Vaughan
last line deleted.

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, vanessan said:

I think we get quite a number of Germans hiring on the Broads, I have certainly come across a few. Those I have seen have excellent boat handling skills too. 

Good quality towels that they leave on the river bank, just wish that they all matched!

[Wussername]

On 11/03/2018 at 12:12, marshman said:

I think you have to rely on Clive's explanation which was that it was done to primarily to bring it into line with Hoseasons - I do not think there was any event in particular that brought it about as I believe everyone would have heard about it.

It would be difficult to impose  the professional qualification bit at this stage - but you are likely, probably , see increasing pressure to see an evidenced handover or at least some record that it has been done - but even that is flawed as you cannot make them listen!!

But if you yourself had personal accident insurance then you could claim on that - does normal Travel Insurance cover that sort of problem? Everyone going on holiday, even the Broads should be well advised to cover themselves - attempting to sue the yard would be a waste of everyones time.

John - I suppose RYA level 2 is not that expensive - depends if you are a banker or not!! And its a two day course nowadays - that too has been tightened up and now probably about £250 - a non starter methinks!!

Why would Richardsons wish to bring themselves into line with Hoseasones. Surely Richardsons is the principle and Hoseasones the agent. Does that lead to Tort Liability? That a principle is held vicariously liable and must pay damages to an injured third party does not excuse the agent who actually committed the tortious acts. A person is always liable for his or her own torts. Why therefore would Richardsons and their agent Hoseasones be so united in this matter. Could it be that their legal advisers consider that they could find themselves exposed in the litigation climate that exists today.

I am not a legal eagle, not even a legal sparrow so my thinking could well be dismissed and probably will. 

"I do not think there was any event in particular that brought it about as I believe everyone would have heard about it."

You may be right but serious accidents do happen.

03 August 2017

A woman has by flown to hospital by air ambulance with serious injuries after falling from a boat and sustaining injuries from a propeller.

The East of England Ambulance Service Trust was called at 12.32pm today to Acle Bridge, Acle, in Norwich, to reports of an incident involving a casualty who was in the river.

Two ambulances

 An ambulance officer

Volunteers from Suffolk Accident and Rescue Service (SARS),

A specialist hazardous area response team (HART)

East Anglian Air Ambulance attended.

A woman had fallen from a boat into the river. She was out of the river when ambulance staff arrived and they worked with fire and rescue staff to safely get her to land.

The patient was flown by air ambulance to Norfolk and Norwich Hospital with serious leg injuries. With life changing injuries.

Accidents do happen and as far as I'm aware the above incident is not related to Richardsons or Hoseasones in any shape or form. But I bet that they know about it.

I do not see how it would be difficult to introduce a professional qualification for the trial run drivers, indeed I think that there is a certain inevitability that this will come about.

Finally I cannot see the insurance companies rushing to insure inexperienced holiday makers driving about in boats worth several tens of thousand of pounds or indeed pursuing holiday makers for damages, far easier to challenge the hire company for failing to give adequate instruction.

Andrew