Pye’s Mill

[vanessan]

This may have been mentioned before, if it has then I apologise. The rubbish bins at Pye’s Mill, Loddon have been removed and replaced with one ‘park’ type bin on the green. Needless to say, that is overflowing with various bags and boxes of rubbish deposited around/near it. I wonder if it is anything to do with the moorings now being BA 24 hour? Maybe the BA have something in mind to replace the facility. Maybe the Parish Council in their wisdom decided that, as they no longer have to maintain the moorings, they do not have to provide boaters with facilities. Whatever the reason, it’s a shame. 

[Hylander]

Oh dear I bet in this weather it rather pens and inks and also attracts all manner of flying insects.   Uggh!!   not nice.   Such a shame as it is a beautiful spot.

[MauriceMynah]

As has been said before, "rubbish removal" is not part of the BA's responsibility, it's a council problem. All councils are trying to save money, and whilst they are responsible for the removal of domestic waste, they have no such responsibility for commercial waste. Just to complete the picture, a couple of years ago, rubbish from boats was re-defined from "domestic" to "Commercial".

So, that's the problem. Simples eh! Less so the solution. The BA are not geared up for rubbish disposal, nor should they be. It is a hugely expensive procedure. The councils can't do much about it either. If a council starts providing rubbish disposal for commercial enterprise free of charge, we can all look to our rates bill doubling.

I know the matter is more complex than I have made out and I'm sure that what I have said contains inaccuracies but in rough terms, that is the situation. Sadly I can't see any solution to this coming up any time soon.

If anyone here wants to sort it out I would recommend the following actions.

1. Find out who changed the classification from domestic to commercial.

2. Find out why  it was done.

3. Take it from there !!!!!!!!!

Good luck.

[annv]

Exactly Maurice if it ain't broke why fix it, the rubbish collection worked for years untill some numpty shiney ar*** changed it, WHY. John

[marshman]

Thanks MM - you put it so much better than I !!!

However get ready to repeat it as lots of people still don't grasp what you have said and will continue to blame the BA!!!!

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

1. Find out who changed the classification from domestic to commercial.

 2. Find out why  it was done.

 3. Take it from there !!!!!!!!!

 

We know the answers to 1and 2 and quite a few people have tried (needless to say unsuccessfully) to get something done. I believe even the BA have done their best. The point of my post was to raise awareness that those facilities have gone, the rest was mainly tongue in cheek. I think it is rather sad that there seems to be an attitude of total defeatism or is it a case of couldn’t really care less anyway?

[rightsaidfred]

Given the current hype and hysteria about plastic waste in the sea etc and his current drive on NP etc maybe a few letters to Mr Gove Secretary of State for the Environment re waste facilities may prove worthwhile.

Fred

[grendel]

just throwing a thought out (just because I dont know the answer) - in a national park, who is responsible for rubbish generated by tourism?

[MauriceMynah]

2 hours ago, vanessan said:

 I think it is rather sad that there seems to be an attitude of total defeatism or is it a case of couldn’t really care less anyway?

I don't think it's "defeatism" nor do I believe it a case of "couldn't care" but more of a case of "What on earth can we do about this and how?"

Firstly just who did re-classify the waste and why? Now, I've read several different answers to both those questions , each from people who's views I respect. but I don't know for sure. Without those two pieces of information, who should I lobby to get it sorted?

What teeth do I have? Irrespective of my low opinion of the journal, Why isn't the EDP ranting and raving about this?. What's the MP for the area doing? (Come to that, Who's the relevant MP?)

Rolling ones eyes to the heavens and tutting just aint going to cut it.

Although I agree that the BA isn't responsible for this mess, it is a government body. It should be using that position to get some action from there.

[vanessan]

The bins at Burgh Castle were amongst the first to go a few years back and when I queried this with GYBC they were quite categorical that it was Norfolk County Council making the rules and calling hire boat waste commercial waste. Reading between the lines of the communication from GYBC, unsurprisingly it was all blamed on cost cutting. Unfortunately I no longer have that communication so cannot share it. If I remember correctly there was a bit of an outcry at the time from private boat owners so the rule was changed to include all boat waste as commercial. Not sure who did that, NCC maybe.

I don’t know what the answer is either and likewise I am fully aware that it is not totally the fault of the BA. However, as grendel has just asked, who is responsible for NP rubbish control?  Do other NPs have a rubbish problem? I have no idea, perhaps someone can answer that. What is rubbish collection like on the Thames or on the canal systems? I’m sure someone can answer that. We do seem to have a problem in this country right now, there seems to be no coordination and different systems wherever you go. It saddens me that there are so many people around who have no pride in their country but I guess with government departments shrugging off responsibilities, it’s not that surprising. 

Maybe rightsaidfred has one answer, loads of letters to Michael Gove. 

[Wussername]

Surely it is the re-classification of waste wthout any consideration towards the environment and the people who use the Broads.
The financial resources of the local councils over the last few years., have come under ever increasing pressure.
Our police force, National Health Service. Our road and rail networks have all been effected.
Our leisure pursuits have also been financially hit, inparticular boating.
The ratio of hire boats to private boats has changed dramatically. You cannot keep giving the donkey another whack.! The private boater has to make a positive contribution towards the waste that they produce.
As far as the boating fraternity is concerned there should be no such thing as industrial waste, commercial waste or domestic waste. It is all Boat Waste, and those that produce it should pay for its disposal accordingly and fairly.
Andrew.
(written under the influence of several Pims in my garden,wishing I was on the river this afternoon)

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[MauriceMynah]

No, It's different situations in different places. The Norfolk Broads is, I would imagine, the largest concentration of self catering holidays in this country, or, more importantly, mobile self catering..

Other visitors to National park family members, tend to stay in B&Bs or caravan parks. Each have bins and those bins are emptied. paid for by the owners of said caravan parks/B&Bs. These costs are covered by the rates as paid by those owners. Boat owners (the vast majority of them) pay mooring fees. Within those mooring fees is the element that covers rates. The number of boats that don't pay mooring fees is insignificant so we shall not head that way!

Also the vest majority of boat owners also pay rates for their homes, whether they are there or not so domestic rubbish disposal is paid for already.

So basically comparing the situation on the Broads with any other situation anywhere else will be highly misleading, given that the Broads is a unique entity.

[Timbo]

The law is quite simple on the matter and any and all councils be they local, county or parish council and indeed the Broads Authority are subject to the published guidance of DEFRA and the Environment Agency.

The guidance states:

Local authorities must keep ‘relevant land’ clear of litter and refuse. During the summer, relevant land includes beaches used for swimming or bathing.

The definition of 'relevant land' is given by DEFRA and the EA as:

• it’s open to the air on at least one side
• it’s under their direct control
• it’s publicly accessible (with or without payment)

This is called ‘relevant land’. Relevant land includes beaches (above the average high water mark).

In my humble opinion, if the BA wants to get back any credibility with stakeholders in the Broads they need to be pushing the issue of refuse with all relevant land managers. By this, I mean hammering out a workable solution to the problem of litter not organising a one-day polytechnic level 'workshop' with free paper and crayons which is the limit of involvement so far.

What do the real National Parks do about it? Well, the Lake District spends £20,000 a year on refuse removal. They work with the other local authorities and land managers to make the removal of refuse as cheap and as easy as possible, and if they won't work with them...they drag them kicking and screaming into court.

You see, failure to remove the litter and refuse from 'relevant' land you have control of, is a breach of the 1990 Environmental Protection Act and is punishable by fine or jail sentence. So..if you see litter and refuse piled up, whether there is a bin there or not, whether it's from a private boat, chalet, hire-boat or spaceship, report it...the land manager in control of that 'relevant land' is bound by law to remove it! 

[MauriceMynah]

True Tim, but not the full story.

Whilst the "Local authority" may be obliged to clear up litter, they will also be happy to prosecute fly tippers. That would include anybody leaving their refuse next to (but not in) a bin.

The problem isn't who picks up the litter, it's the lack of regular rubbish collections from bins man enough to take the volume concerned.

[Wussername]

21 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

No, It's different situations in different places. The Norfolk Broads is, I would imagine, the largest concentration of self catering holidays in this country, or, more importantly, mobile self catering..

Other visitors to National park family members, tend to stay in B&Bs or caravan parks. Each have bins and those bins are emptied. paid for by the owners of said caravan parks/B&Bs. These costs are covered by the rates as paid by those owners. Boat owners (the vast majority of them) pay mooring fees. Within those mooring fees is the element that covers rates. The number of boats that don't pay mooring fees is insignificant so we shall not head that way!

Also the vest majority of boat owners also pay rates for their homes, whether they are there or not so domestic rubbish disposal is paid for already.

So basically comparing the situation on the Broads with any other situation anywhere else will be highly misleading, given that the Broads is a unique entity.

Other visitors to National park family members, tend to stay in B&Bs or caravan parks. Each have bins and those bins are emptied. paid for by the owners of said caravan parks/B&Bs. These costs are covered by the rates as paid by those owners. Boat owners (the vast majority of them) pay mooring fees. Within those mooring fees is the element that covers rates. The number of boats that don't pay mooring fees is insignificant so we shall not head that way

B&Bs or caravan parks, hotels, camp sites, holiday camps all produce waste The collection of that waste is as you have correctly stated is paid for by the proprietor. Irrespective as to how the owner pays for this service is to some extent irrelevant. An increase on his business rates or on the number of bins or the cubic capacity of these bins is taken into account and a charge is made accordingly. The owner will budget for this fixed cost or variable cost as the case may be. However you pay to stay at his establishment and the services he provides. Waste disposal is one of the services provided. Indirectly you pay for the disposal of your waste. You will not see it on your bill, but you do pay for it. 

Boat owners (the vast majority of them) pay mooring fees. Within those mooring fees is the element that covers rates.

Do they all provide a waste disposal facility by default, by a legal requirement?

Also the vest majority of boat owners also pay rates for their homes, whether they are there or not so domestic rubbish disposal is paid for already.

Do you think that it is reasonable that the local parish of a small community should pay for holiday makers rubbish, or private owners rubbish. Of course not. Why should they. 

Andrew

 

 

[Paladin]

24 minutes ago, Timbo said:

The law is quite simple on the matter and any and all councils be they local, county or parish council and indeed the Broads Authority are subject to the published guidance of DEFRA and the Environment Agency.

The guidance states:

Local authorities must keep ‘relevant land’ clear of litter and refuse. During the summer, relevant land includes beaches used for swimming or bathing.

The definition of 'relevant land' is given by DEFRA and the EA as:

• it’s open to the air on at least one side
• it’s under their direct control
• it’s publicly accessible (with or without payment)

This is called ‘relevant land’. Relevant land includes beaches (above the average high water mark).

In my humble opinion, if the BA wants to get back any credibility with stakeholders in the Broads they need to be pushing the issue of refuse with all relevant land managers. By this, I mean hammering out a workable solution to the problem of litter not organising a one-day polytechnic level 'workshop' with free paper and crayons which is the limit of involvement so far.

What do the real National Parks do about it? Well, the Lake District spends £20,000 a year on refuse removal. They work with the other local authorities and land managers to make the removal of refuse as cheap and as easy as possible, and if they won't work with them...they drag them kicking and screaming into court.

You see, failure to remove the litter and refuse from 'relevant' land you have control of, is a breach of the 1990 Environmental Protection Act and is punishable by fine or jail sentence. So..if you see litter and refuse piled up, whether there is a bin there or not, whether it's from a private boat, chalet, hire-boat or spaceship, report it...the land manager in control of that 'relevant land' is bound by law to remove it! 

'Relevant land', in relation to local authorities is defined in the 1990 Act as:

"land is “relevant land” of a principal litter authority if, not being relevant land falling within subsection (7) below, it is open to the air and is land (but not a highway or in Scotland a public road) which is under the direct control of such an authority (my emphasis) to which the public are entitled or permitted to have access with or without payment."

In my experience, the local authorities do actually keep their relevant land clear. BA moorings, not being 'relevant land' are a very different. It would be down to the BA to remove (at toll payers expense) fly-tipped rubbish from land they own or lease.

The 2012 regulations classify boat waste as 'household waste'. It is only the exception to that classification that has caused all the problems i.e. that "Where the vehicle or vessel is used in the course of a business for the provision of self-catering accommodation, the waste is to be treated as commercial waste."

There was supposed to be a government review of the 2012 regulations no later than 2017. Has anyone heard of it taking place?

[MauriceMynah]

Ahh haa, it's locky hornsy time. :)

7 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Do you think that it is reasonable that the local parish of a small community should pay for holiday makers rubbish, or private owners rubbish. Of course not. Why should they. 

We often read of the money tourism brings into an area, so , Yes I do.

8 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Boat owners (the vast majority of them) pay mooring fees. Within those mooring fees is the element that covers rates.

Do they all provide a waste disposal facility by default, by a legal requirement?

No they don't but the owner of the mooring pays rates, this cost is passed on to the moorer, so the moorer pays.

 

[Paladin]

22 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Do you think that it is reasonable that the local parish of a small community should pay for holiday makers rubbish, or private owners rubbish. Of course not. Why should they.

 

9 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

We often read of the money tourism brings into an area, so , Yes I do.

 

MM, could you explain your answer please? I live in a small village. But it's one that is popular with walkers and others who utilise a number of local B&Bs. The money these people bring in goes to the B&Bs, the pub and the local shop. Why should the parishioners, who get not a penny of that income, pay extra on the parish precept in order to pay for the waste disposal of those visitors?

[Wussername]

We often read of the money tourism brings into an area, so , Yes I do.

A contribution to age concern would be good. Please pay me direct. Cut out the middle man.

No they don't but the owner of the mooring pays rates, this cost is passed on to the moorer, so the moorer pays.

Does the owner pay for waste collection?

Andrew

 

[grendel]

4 minutes ago, Paladin said:

Why should the parishioners, who get not a penny of that income, pay extra on the parish precept in order to pay for the waste disposal of those visitors?

depends if the Parishioners are disposing of the visitors as waste.

[grendel]

17 minutes ago, Paladin said:

The 2012 regulations classify boat waste as 'household waste'. It is only the exception to that classification that has caused all the problems i.e. that "Where the vehicle or vessel is used in the course of a business for the provision of self-catering accommodation, the waste is to be treated as commercial waste."

so all private boats waste should be treated as household waste, and all hire boat waste as commercial waste, so a private boat leaving its waste at a bin point should have it removed and a hire boats waste left at the same bin should have it charged at commercial rate at the cost of the landowner - short of placing locked bins for private boats and providing them with a combination, I dont see how the classification as commercial waste can be proven, so it should surely be removed at an agreed rate lower than the commercial rate to allow for a proportion of private boat waste.

[MauriceMynah]

 

10 minutes ago, Paladin said:

 

MM, could you explain your answer please? I live in a small village. But it's one that is popular with walkers and others who utilise a number of local B&Bs. The money these people bring in goes to the B&Bs, the pub and the local shop. Why should the parishioners, who get not a penny of that income, pay extra on the parish precept in order to pay for the waste disposal of those visitors?

Certainly Pally, the answer is simple. Life aint fair. I pay tax that pays for the education of children I don't have. It pays for many facilities I do not, or cannot use.

If the businesses that cater for the tourist industry were to go elsewhere, but the tourism remained, do you think your rates will go up, or will they go down?

[Paladin]

54 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

 

Certainly Pally, the answer is simple. Life aint fair. I pay tax that pays for the education of children I don't have. It pays for many facilities I do not, or cannot use.

If the businesses that cater for the tourist industry were to go elsewhere, but the tourism remained, do you think your rates will go up, or will they go down?

So, as the waste problem has been caused by waste from hire boats being classified as 'commercial', while the waste from your private boat is stiil classified as 'household' (collected and disposed of without extra charge), I presume you would be happy for a hike in the tolls specifically to pay for the collection and disposal of the waste from hire boats.

If the B&Bs in my village ceased trading, the pub and the village store closed down, it wouldn't change the parish precept at all.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

8 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

As has been said before, "rubbish removal" is not part of the BA's responsibility, it's a council problem. All councils are trying to save money, and whilst they are responsible for the removal of domestic waste, they have no such responsibility for commercial waste. Just to complete the picture, a couple of years ago, rubbish from boats was re-defined from "domestic" to "Commercial".

So, that's the problem. Simples eh! Less so the solution. The BA are not geared up for rubbish disposal, nor should they be. It is a hugely expensive procedure. The councils can't do much about it either. If a council starts providing rubbish disposal for commercial enterprise free of charge, we can all look to our rates bill doubling.

I know the matter is more complex than I have made out and I'm sure that what I have said contains inaccuracies but in rough terms, that is the situation. Sadly I can't see any solution to this coming up any time soon.

If anyone here wants to sort it out I would recommend the following actions.

1. Find out who changed the classification from domestic to commercial.

2. Find out why  it was done.

3. Take it from there !!!!!!!!!

Good luck.

Hi John,

you forgot to put item 4,  Find out where they live, then dump your rubbish in THEIR front garden.

 

[MauriceMynah]

You're bouncing about a bit here Pally, but basically I have as much choice in how much I pay for tolls as you do, but as the BA are not responsible for rubbish collection, and not likely to become so, the question is somewhat academic. (as most of this thread is.)

In short no I would not be happy, but then again I never am when the tolls go up... for any reason.